So . . . . can they do it? Legally?

[Lawdog Dago Dom]

There are some raising constitutional questions about a governor's authority to have businesses and schools close. Christopher D. Boyd, prosecuting attorney from Adams County, Idaho, sent a well written letter to his governor (attached). It was also mentioned on an Illinois website. https://edgarcountywatchdogs.com/2020/04/due-process-concerns-raised-by-idaho-prosecutor-in-letter-to-governor/

 

COVID19LettertoGovernor.pdf

[Pat Riot]

I do believe there is quite a bit of “stretching the law” going on right now in lots of places. 
 

I know that one politico got reeled in.  The LA County Sheriff was closing gun stores, but the County Attorney’s Office countermanded his order. Gun ranges are closed though. 
 

 

[Utah Bob #35998]

Some of the "orders"  skirt the fringes of Constitutional legality. Some do not. Some are guidelines. Some are downright stone illegal.

Some people will protest.

Some will acquiesce quietly, convinced that anything the government does is okay.

[Cheatin Charlie]

There is a 100 year old Supreme Court decision that is being used today and will probably be challenged from both directions.

 

Washington (CNN)When a US appeals court ruled this week that Texas could prevent physicians from performing abortions because of the Covid-19 pandemic, the judges leaned heavily on a 1905 Supreme Court decision against a Massachusetts man who had refused vaccination during a smallpox outbreak.

That case could be invoked more in the months ahead. It is the high court's touchstone for state power during public health crises. But it is a decision with limits. The 1905 court warned against "arbitrary" or "oppressive" regulation and expressly connected mandatory vaccination to ending the spread of smallpox.

Today, the question is how bluntly the case, known as Jacobson v. Massachusetts, might be wielded to justify curbing individual liberties without caveat.

In the first decision of its kind during the coronavirus crisis, the 5th US Circuit Court of Appeals relied wholly on the 1905 case to permit Texas to include abortion clinics in its ban on non-essential medical services and surgeries. The panel, ruling by a 2-1 vote, rejected arguments regarding the right to abortion ingrained by the Supreme Court's 1973 Roe v. Wade and subsequent rulings.

 

 

"Jacobson instructs that all constitutional rights may be reasonably restricted to combat a public health emergency," wrote Judge Stuart Kyle Duncan for the majority.

[J-BAR #18287]

The concept of "non-essential businesses or goods" still rankles me.  It's not a politician's call, it's up to the market to decide.

 

 

3 minutes ago, Cheatin Charlie said:

There is a 100 year old Supreme Court decision that is being used today and will probably be challenged from both directions.

"Jacobson instructs that all constitutional rights may be reasonably restricted to combat a public health emergency," wrote Judge Stuart Kyle Duncan for the majority.

 

Probably time to revisit that idea.

[Rye Miles #13621]

Civil War and World War 2 are just two examples of “stretching the laws”.  

[Warden Callaway]

 

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

3 hours ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

I do believe there is quite a bit of “stretching the law” going on right now in lots of places. 
 

I know that one politico got reeled in.  The LA County Sheriff was closing gun stores, but the County Attorney’s Office countermanded his order. Gun ranges are closed though. 
 

 

Been going on for over 200 years now.  If you don't believe it just ask the Japanese Americans that got screwed, or the blacks, or the American Indians, et damn cetera! 

Just got more ways to hear / learn about it these days.

[J. Mark Flint #31954 LIFE]

It is a taking without due process and I would be shocked if multiple failing business do not assert this when it is over.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

Well, we could take the position "You Can't Do That" and just increase the Dead and dying exponentially.  Sometimes being "Dead Right" is just STUPID. 

[J. Mark Flint #31954 LIFE]

I don't think arguing the constitutionality is the same as suggesting we ignore the problem.  I don't like the  heavyhandedness of some officials making declarations without a vote, or a hearing, but I do believe staying away from others right now is the right thing to do.

[Roscoe Regulator]

The tougher calls aren't made because it would cost them reelection and be economically damaging beyond what we see already. I would be more inclined to trust someone not eligible for reelection and who has a consensus among qualified expert advisers. I don't get the loose cannons among the experts with their woulda/shouldas, when what is more important is going forward.

[Lawdog Dago Dom]

22 hours ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

Some of the "orders"  skirt the fringes of Constitutional legality. Some do not. Some are guidelines. Some are downright stone illegal.

Some people will protest.

Some will acquiesce quietly, convinced that anything the government does is okay.

 

Well said Bob. I have a problem trusting the same government that questions my Second Amendment rights, giving me health instructions "for my own good," of course.

[Utah Bob #35998]

[Trailrider #896]

Frankly, I don't care whether the lockdown/stay-at-home orders are legal or not.  If "they" lifted the order tomorrow, before it is really safe to do so, my wife and I will stay home unless it becomes absolutely necessary to go out for groceries or meds! The risks to us are just too great!  Stay well, Pards!

[Warden Callaway]

It's my understanding that the "shelter at home" strategy is intended the "flatten the curve" to reduce a spike burden on health care facilities.  I suspect everyone will eventually get exposed to the virus.   Maybe there will have developed a vaccine or better treatment methods,  maybe not. 

 

Remember when bandaids actually stuck?  There was always the question of removing it slow and ever so gentle or just ripping it off. Sweden has elected to just let it run through the population with the intent of "herd" inoculation principle.    But by letting it run it's natural course,  they get it over much sooner and not derail the economy or impose regulations on their population. It'll be interesting to see the final numbers. 

[J-BAR #18287]

1 hour ago, Trailrider #896 said:

Frankly, I don't care whether the lockdown/stay-at-home orders are legal or not.  If "they" lifted the order tomorrow, before it is really safe to do so, my wife and I will stay home unless it becomes absolutely necessary to go out for groceries or meds! The risks to us are just too great!  Stay well, Pards!

And that is exactly the right way to do it.  Allow people to make choices in their own best interest, not being ordered by the government.  
 

It disturbs me a bit that you said you don’t care if the orders are legal or not.  The Constitution and due process are important to follow in tough times, IMO, but we may have to agree to disagree on that point.

[Turkey Flats Jack]

We have the right to peaceably assemble. Now CDC recommends social distancing and wearing appropriate PPE. The survival rate for this virus is around 98% if you do not have any underlying conditions. Just my take on it. Live your life. If you have health issues you should probably follow the CDC guidelines for this pandemic to the best of your ability. If you're healthy and ready to meet our maker whenever you're called upon then by all means carry on. 

[bgavin]

There is nothing in the Constitution (Fed or State) that allows the gov't to quarantine the healthy, shut down business, enforce "social distancing", confiscate or impede the sale of fire arms.

In CA, Newsom' executive orders are very carefully worded for the public to "heed" (read: "take into consideration") his guidelines.  These are not laws created by the legislature and passed into law, so they are non-binding.

Cops dragging the unmasked off buses, cops arresting and fining those in groups, cops trolling parking lot license plates, cops fining a single person in the ocean on a surf board, cops threatening to go door-to-door and techies talking about mandatory "this" and "tracking" that... are the hallmarks of a Police State.
 

[Ace_of_Hearts]

4 hours ago, Trailrider #896 said:

Frankly, I don't care whether the lockdown/stay-at-home orders are legal or not.  If "they" lifted the order tomorrow, before it is really safe to do so, my wife and I will stay home unless it becomes absolutely necessary to go out for groceries or meds! The risks to us are just too great!  Stay well, Pards!

Here is an intelligent man!

BUT

As a perfectly healthy 76 year old man NO ONE has the authority to tell me to stay in my home legally. (Ordering me to do anything just pisses me off)

If I were sick then you would have a case.

But then it better be on the order of a qualified MEDICAL professional. Not a stupid Governor/Mayor/Indian Chief.

The stupid Govenor here ordered all parks closed. The Federal Government closed all access to Lake Mead National Park on the NEVADA side only!

 

 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

Does it really matter at the end of the day??  The choices are simple.  Freewheel the economy and witch the rates of infection spiral out of control.  Here, in Pennsylvania, we logged approx 1800 NEW cases just today.  20% may well die.  How bout we just quintuple that.  Just for a few pieces of gold.  STUPID can''t be fix'd.

 

So just get out there.  Shake hands.  Kissie Face and Huggie Body.  Interact to your hearts content.  Darwin will sort it out just fine.  AMF

[Ramblin Gambler]

14 hours ago, Turkey Flats Jack said:

if you do not have any underlying conditions.

 

Not sure they have figured out the underlying conditions.  They keep reporting co-morbidities, but then someone crunches actual numbers and proves them false.  Except for the age thing, I haven't read anything disproving that one yet.  Obesity, diabetes, and smoking have been disproved so far though. 

[Turkey Flats Jack]

15 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

20% may well die

Where are you getting your numbers? Everything I've read says less than 3% will die from the virus. The older you are the higher your chances are of being part of the 3% though. 

[bgavin]

There are Lies, Damned Lies and Gov't Statistics.

The WHO and CDC have proven we cannot be trust their numbers.
CDC sent out a PDF (seen it) specifying C19 to be listed on death certificates.

I track the gov't provided numbers every 24 hours.
This allows me to calculate the rate of new infection and percentage of deaths in the US.

April 5 appears to be the highest number of "new" infections.
On that date, new infections were doubling ever 7.4 days.

As of April 13, the rate of new-infected doubling has slowed to every 22 days.
On this date we have 576,774 infected and 23,369 dead.
Compare this with 59,120 dead from the flu in 2018.

This is a death rate of 4.05% of those diagnosed as infected.
The death percentage has risen continuously since the onset.
I expect this, as death for the severely infected comes 2+ weeks after infection.

These numbers are vigorously debated and shouted down, but they are still just numbers.
I will point out that 90% or more of everybody who dies in hospital has an underlying condition, whether infected with C19 or not.
The only "absolutes" we know is that 2 years ago, we had no C19 in America, nor a lock down.

Today we have the COVID-19 flu that is now starting to crest.
That flu brought about tremendous new debt, business closure, loss of freedoms and apparently the Police State.

Cops dragging the unmasked off buses, cops arresting and fining those in groups, cops trolling parking lot license plates, cops fining a single person in the ocean, cops threatening to go door-to-door and techies talking about mandatory "chipping" and "tracking" are the hallmarks of a Police State.

In my humble opinion, part of this fear mongering is brought to you by the same folks who brought the failed Russian collusion and the failed Impeachment sham.
And all for TDS and political purposes.

"I'm hoping for a crashing economy so we can get rid of Trump. So, please, bring on the recession."
--Bill Maher, 2018.06

National Safety Council Data for 2018

655,381 - Heart Disease
599,274 - Cancer (malignant neoplasms)
167,127 - Preventable injury (Poisoning, Motor Vehicle, Falls)
159,486 - Chronic lower respiratory diseases
147,810 - Stroke (cerebrovascular disease)
122,019 - Alzheimer's Disease
84,946 - Diabetes Mellitus
59,120 - Influenza and pneumonia
51,386 - Nephritis
48,344 - Suicide

 

 

[Warden Callaway]

I check this site each afternoon.   It's the Missouri Health & Senior Services collection of statistics on COVID-19.  It looks to be the most comprehensive collection of data I've found on our state. 

 

https://health.mo.gov/living/healthcondiseases/communicable/novel-coronavirus/results.php

 

New cases have fallen to the floor in past couple of days.   Encouraging.   Further down is a map that will give statistics by county and St Louis.   The majority or cases are in St Louis City and county and St Charles that rings it.  Jackson County Kansas City area are lags behind.  Then the numbers drop off in most of the rest of the state.  Maybe 1/3 of the counties are yet to have a case.  Another 1/3 have a few.  

 

Our county has 20 cases.  Most were related to one college student and most if not all have recovered.  It's hard to know since the local health center hasn't put out a report in a week.  We had one death but it was just an announcement with no details other than someone over 60 that was already hospitalized.  No more information has came out.

 

Further down is pull-down menus that break down the data in a number of ways - including deaths by age.  Deaths ramp up after 60. 

[Matthew Duncan]

2019 population of the United States: 328,200,000.

 

4/13/20 there were 554,849 confirmed COVID-19 infections, this is POINT one seven percent (.17%) of the population. 

 

4/13/2020 there were 21,942 deaths from COVID-19, that is POINT zero zero seven percent (.007%) of the United States population.

 

 

[bgavin]

The above chart proves my point:  gov't numbers and charts are just a SWAG.
The gov't mouthpieces and the various WHO, CDC organizations numbers do not correlate.

Whoever created this chart believes there are no new cases near the 4/11 date.
This is false.

The ever-expanding number of infected diagnoses for April 11 show 30,521 new cases in that 24 hour period.
Subtract the case count for the previous 24 hours period, and you have the number of new cases.

Furthermore, the total number of infected continues to rise.
It will never, ever go down because the gov't stats do not reflect (and subtract) those who are no long C19 positive.

The chart above peaks at 14,000 cases, yet 576,774 cases are on record as of end-of-period for 4/13.
This is again false.

If one only looked at that chart, they would get a Pollyanna false sense of security with the cases declining.
This is not the case.
 

Date	Cases	New	Dbl Days
03/05/20	176	58	2.03
03/06/20	223	47	3.74
03/07/20	341	118	1.89
03/08/20	417	76	4.49
03/09/20	584	167	2.50
03/10/20	778	194	3.01
03/11/20	1,053	275	2.83
03/12/20	1,315	262	4.02
03/13/20	1,922	607	2.17
03/14/20	2,450	528	3.64
03/15/20	3,173	723	3.39
03/16/20	4,019	846	3.75
03/17/20	5,722	1,703	2.36
03/18/20	7,730	2,008	2.85
03/19/20	11,719	3,989	1.94
03/20/20	17,033	5,314	2.21
03/21/20	23,197	6,164	2.76
03/22/20	31,879	8,682	2.67
03/23/20	42,152	10,273	3.10
03/24/20	51,954	9,802	4.30
03/25/20	63,928	11,974	4.34
03/26/20	80,735	16,807	3.80
03/27/20	99,413	18,678	4.32
03/28/20	118,234	18,821	5.28
03/29/20	139,061	20,827	5.68
03/30/20	160,530	21,469	6.48
03/31/20	184,770	24,240	6.62
04/01/20	210,770	26,000	7.11
04/02/20	239,009	28,239	7.46
04/03/20	273,880	34,871	6.85
04/04/20	305,755	31,875	8.59
04/05/20	347,003	41,248	7.41
04/06/20	369,069	22,066	15.73
04/07/20	399,929	30,860	11.96
04/08/20	423,222	23,293	17.17
04/09/20	457,963	34,741	12.18
04/10/20	492,678	34,715	13.19
04/11/20	523,199	30,521	16.14
04/12/20	551,826	28,627	18.28
04/13/20	576,774	24,948	22.12

 

[Chili Ron]

Howdy,

type all the numbers you want but my favorite mex restaurant is still closed.

rotsaruck.

CR

is it weird that I have no energy to put that tang sight on the marlin?

I got a great deal and the marlin is right over there...….

But I got my taxes done and a little bitty bit o cash wandering my way.....

 

[Ozark Huckleberry]

14 hours ago, bgavin said:

April 5 appears to be the highest number of "new" infections.
On that date, new infections were doubling ever 7.4 days.

As of April 13, the rate of new-infected doubling has slowed to every 22 days.
On this date we have 576,774 infected and 23,369 dead.
Compare this with 59,120 dead from the flu in 2018.

 

So . . . does the slowing of the rate of doubling indicate the shelter-in-place policies are working, or that the number of people who need to learn the value of social distancing through personal experience is declining?

 

59,120 dead from the flu in 2018 = 162/day. Since Jan 21 was the first reported COVID-19 case in the U.S, 23,369 dead from that date = 312/day.

 

Guess the only way to find out which would be the better approach is to just open the doors and send everyone out. But ifit was just the lives of the people pushing the idea that were on the line, it'd be fine. Unfortunately, spiking the infection numbers even higher would just make it more of a problem for everyone, as well as the economy.

 

It's like the whole, 'gotta wear a facemask' thing. Plenty of people are trying to equate that to some kind of Nazi thing. Seriously? In that perspective, I guess OSHA requiring workers to wear hardhats is just as Nazi. But many of the, 'it's all good, let us just go work' gang is also the, 'I ain't gonna wear no face mask,' group -- never mind that wearing one is actually intended to protect other people.

[Cheatin Charlie]

13 hours ago, Matthew Duncan said:

2019 population of the United States: 328,200,000.

 

4/13/20 there were 554,849 confirmed COVID-19 infections, this is POINT one seven percent (.17%) of the population. 

 

4/13/2020 there were 21,942 deaths from COVID-19, that is POINT zero zero seven percent (.007%) of the United States population.

 

 

That maybe true but as of today only 3,000,000 people in the U.S. have been tested.  And most of those are people who have some symptoms.  It looks to me that of the 3,000,000 tested 18 percent have the virus.  So no one knows how many people have the virus because there are such a small number tested.

[Warden Callaway]

Just 9 more days!

 

I think I'll drive out to the intersection of US54 and I70 and watch the great flood of traffic.  Billy Bob with his bass boat. Old greasers on Gullwings in mass migration.  Moms by the hundreds with their SUVs taking there brats to practice soccer.  Won't be able to get on a Denny's parking lot. There will be all levels of Missouri law enforcement out to direct traffic because the traffic light changes won't keep up. 

[Matthew Duncan]

14 hours ago, bgavin said:

...Whoever created this chart believes there are no new cases near the 4/11 date.
This is false....

 

 

Believe you missed reading all of the chart.  Notice the gray area with the words "Illness that began during this time may not yet be reported".

 

Chart was created by CDC.gov.

 

 

[bgavin]

Matthew, this is exactly my point.

I'm not trolling you, or dissing you in any way.
My entire point is the Pollyanna numbers in that chart are just that: optimistically fake.

The various gov't mouthpieces and cheerleaders make SWAG statements that do not correlate.

The CDC numbers are nowhere close to the other gov't numbers.
If we only had 14,000 peak cases as shown in the chart above, we would not be locked down in a semi-police state and destroying the entire economy.
They would not be scrambling to find tens of thousands of ventilators, which are needed for only 3% of the infected cases.

Ozark:
There are those who wear the mask because they are high risk (me).

There are those who party, congregate shoulder to shoulder in the saloons, and lick toilet seats.
Some will get infected, some will not, some will die.

These are the ones who pee from high voltage towers after climbing up there with a six-pack.
Darwin Awards are handed out generously every year for the "Hold my beer and watch this" events.

There are those people who wear the latex gloves because they are high risk (me).
I know how frequently people's hands go down their pants, up their noses, in their butts, on gas pump nozzles and everywhere else.
I also know a virus can survive on a hard surface up to 9 days.

C19 and H1N1 (swine flu) are advanced respiratory distress syndrome diseases.
This means you suffocate and drown in your own lungs... not a pleasant, or quick way to die.

The Nazi part is when Bill Gates starts talking about mandatory vaccine and an embedded chip with a digital signature saying you are "OK".
Microsoft has a plant in Wuhan, China and Gates has been actively involved in virus research.
Some will call me paranoid.. but the surrender of our freedoms and suspension of our businesses is troublesome.

Cops dragging the unmasked off buses, cops closing down businesses, cops arresting and fining those in groups, cops trolling church parking lot license plates, cops fining a single person in the ocean, cops threatening to go door-to-door and techies talking about mandatory "chipping" and "tracking" are the hallmarks of a Police State.

The suspension of gun shops, impeding firearm sales and calling for a 100% ban during the pandemic are more signs of the police state. 

The same folks who brought us the failed Russian collusion and the failed Impeachment sham have introduced HR5717 that will tax and federally license firearms and ammo.

IMO, this COVID19 fear and disruption is orchestrated to get Trump to lose in November, and to implement more gun control

Nazi?
Absolutely.

 

[Charlie T Waite]

On 4/12/2020 at 3:37 PM, Cheatin Charlie said:

 

"Jacobson instructs that all constitutional rights may be reasonably restricted to combat a public health emergency," wrote Judge Stuart Kyle Duncan for the majority.

 

 

This has been used to allow the states authority to do what they are doing during this declared public health emergency, the problem lies in the fact that some are exceeding the limits. e.g. The bottom line is this: when faced with a society-threatening epidemic, a state may implement emergency measures that curtail constitutional rights so long as the measures have at least some 'real or substantial relation' to the public health crisis and are not 'beyond all question, a plain, palpable invasion of rights secured by the fundamental law,'"   In Jacobson the Court's decision articulated the view that the freedom of the individual must sometimes be subordinated to the common welfare and is subject to the police power of the state. By identifying the ongoing smallpox epidemic as a danger to the general public, the court ruled that individual rights and liberty were subordinate to the state's obligation to eradicate the disease; hence by identifying COVID-19 in the same maner the courts fall back to the ruling in Jacobson.  So the questions that will come before the courts are do the various orders go 'beyond all question, a plain, palpable invasion of rights secured by the fundamental law, is the order an overreach of the states power?  In some cases the courts may rule in favor of the states in others they may not.

 

This is why I am glad these questions will more than likely hit on the federal level as opposed to in my level of court; because the DOJ is currently investigating them and the SCOTUS may ultimately become involved.

 

We had a judical conference yesterday titled "A Constitutional Examination of the COVID-19 Pandemic"  and this was a topic that came up.

[Warden Callaway]

On 4/13/2020 at 3:32 PM, Utah Bob #35998 said:

 

Fate of the signers of the Declaration of Independence.

 

https://www.constitution.org/bio/fate_of_signers.htm