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Nickel City Dude

Pistol cylinder jamming on 44-40 light load

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19 hours ago, Nickel City Dude said:

Does the Redding profile crimp die adjust the bottle neck and crimp the cartridge? 

 

Yes, it sizes the neck as well as putting a tight roll crimp on.  I measured the tightness of the neck of loaded rounds, and the Redding made a tighter neck than the Lee FCD by about 0.0015" 

 

The whole .44-40 Redding 3-die set with a profile crimp die included is shown as available on Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/Redding-Reloading-44-40-Winchester-80188/dp/B002DT5HBS

 

The crimp die alone is claimed to be available to ship within 2.5 weeks from Optics Planet

https://www.opticsplanet.com/redding-reloading-profile-crimp-die.html

 

But - both of those vendors are known by me to let you order and not tell you that items are going to be delayed shipping or are back-ordered.  Both usually are good at keeping delays to 2 weeks or so in normal times.   This time "ain't normal!"

 

 

Here is the MAIN REASON that Redding is back-ordered currently -

Quote

March 2020REDDING (plant) HAS CLOSED AS OF 3-20 DUE TO THE COVID-19 ORDER IN NEW YORK. 

 

I would expect they would reopen later this year.

 

At this point, you may have to be patient.    You probably aren't shooting matches anyway.

 

 

Good luck, GJ

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I have a Lee 44WCF FCD and I can't say it does doodly squat on rounds loaded with 427-428 bullets. I'm sure it tries to squeeze around the crimp groove area.  It will sometimes flatten out a slight buckle from a roll crimp gone weong.  I used a cutoff wheel on Dremel tool to open up the slits on the collet and it may have helped some.

 

Grafs shows out of stock on this Redding die.

 

https://www.grafs.com/catalog/product/productId/16245

 

So does MidwayUSA 

 

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1012356269

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

Yes, it sizes the neck as well as putting a tight roll crimp on.  I measured the tightness of the neck of loaded rounds, and the Redding made a tighter neck than the Lee FCD by about 0.0015" 

 

The whole .44-40 Redding 3-die set with a profile crimp die included is shown as available on Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/Redding-Reloading-44-40-Winchester-80188/dp/B002DT5HBS

 

The crimp die alone is claimed to be available to ship within 2.5 weeks from Optics Planet

https://www.opticsplanet.com/redding-reloading-profile-crimp-die.html

 

But - both of those vendors are known by me to let you order and not tell you that items are going to be delayed shipping or are back-ordered.  Both usually are good at keeping delays to 2 weeks or so in normal times.   This time "ain't normal!"

 

 

Here is the MAIN REASON that Redding is back-ordered currently -

 

I would expect they would reopen later this year.

 

At this point, you may have to be patient.    You probably aren't shooting matches anyway.

 

 

Good luck, GJ

GJ

I looked on Amazon but I am not sure the set includes the profile crimp die.  It  looks like it has a seating crimp die.  How can I be sure?

NCD

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7 minutes ago, Nickel City Dude said:

I looked on Amazon but I am not sure the set includes the profile crimp die. 

 

Yes, it does.  Says "Includes either the profile crimp die or a taper crimp, depending on cartridge"   The .44-40 needs the Profile Crimp Die.   That cart NEVER would take a taper crimp. 

 

Cross reference the Amazon "manufacturer number" with what is on the Redding site.   That is always the most accurate way to tell what you get because Amazon rarely knows (or bothers to learn) what is in the sets they sell! 

 

Good luck, GJ

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8 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

Yes, it does.  Says "Includes either the profile crimp die or a taper crimp, depending on cartridge"   The .44-40 needs the Profile Crimp Die.   That cart NEVER would take a taper crimp. 

 

Cross reference the Amazon "manufacturer number" with what is on the Redding site.   That is always the most accurate way to tell what you get because Amazon rarely knows (or bothers to learn) what is in the sets they sell! 

 

Good luck, GJ

I contacted Redding and gave them the Amazon link and here is what they said.

That comes with a roll crimp as part of the seat.  The profile crimp die would be a separate item.

 
Aubrey (A.J.) Ferris
Engineer

Redding Reloading Equipment
1089 Starr Road
Cortland, NY 13045
 
So I guess I am still looking.

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Well, hoot mon, since you have the ear of a factory engineer - and on a Saturday no less,  in the midst of a national shutdown.

 

Ask if he can arrange to sell you a die factory direct to you!   Tell him you can't find one of his superb pieces of precision!   All they can do is refuse.  

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

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I already asked and he said that the entire facility is shut down so he can't even check to see if they have any.

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Appears that you will have to wait, then.

 

It could be that all the pards on the wire praising the Redding Profile Crimp die increased sales way beyond historic levels.   :o

Meaning vendors did not have much of a stock of the dies in place.  Who would have thunk that!     :o

We've only been talking about this die for the last 3 years or so.  <_<

 

Good luck when it becomes your turn to have good luck, GJ 

 

 

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One of the better things I have purchased is an EGW cowboy shell checker.  Was very handy when adjusting my 44/40 dies... Has holes for 357, 44 mag, 44/40 and 45 colt.   Have learned to buy one for my bottle neck cartridges  used in auto rifles for other sports       GW

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2 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Appears that you will have to wait, then.

 

It could be that all the pards on the wire praising the Redding Profile Crimp die increased sales way beyond historic levels.   :o

Meaning vendors did not have much of a stock of the dies in place.  Who would have thunk that!     :o

We've only been talking about this die for the last 3 years or so.  <_<

 

Good luck when it becomes your turn to have good luck, GJ 

 

 

 

GJ

I had a vague memory of talking about this die several years ago.  So I searched threw my shelf of dies and what to my wondering eyes should appear but a Redding profile crimp die in 44-40 that I had purchased years ago for this very problem.  (let’s just call it a senior moment).  I installed it on my press did some adjustments and Poof it is working great.  I will now make up about 50 and see how they work in my revolvers.  Can’t go out today but will try to get out to the range tomorrow.

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7 hours ago, Nickel City Dude said:

Hochbauer

Does the Redding crimp die also profile the 44-40 bottle neck case if so do you know anyone that has one for sale?  I checked all my regular suppliers and no one has one in stock.

 

Not uncommon with the .44 WCF to remove material from the bottom of the size die.

Start with removing .035-.040. Then .020 increments after that.

You want the empty sized case to 'just' drop into all chambers.

OLG 

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1 hour ago, Nickel City Dude said:

I installed it on my press did some adjustments and Poof it is working great. 

 

Well, good luck decided it was time to remind you to check your "new old stock"   

Congrats, GJ

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So,  you have "fat" cartridges that have to be shoved in.  Have you checked the throat diameter in your cylinders?   Sawmill Mary's Smokewagons will only pass a 427 bullet without forcing.   My pair are newer and will pass a 430 diameter bullet.  

 

5a04816838420_44WCFMissouribulletsNovember2017.jpg.74b4cdc7986e502680b7cbe78c3d7383.jpg

 

Her guns can use the Missouri Bullet Company 428 bullet on the right (if loaded exactly perfect) because of its rounded ogive contour.  The load on the left has to be forced (or won't chamber) in because of the full diameter driving band. The Lee bullet on the left will work in every other 44WCF we have. 

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WC

I am using the Missouri bullet in 428.  Last night I made up some bullets using the Redding profile crimp die and am going out today to try them out.  I will report back later with my results.

NCD

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I think the cylinders in my revolver are dirty and that is causing some chambering issues because not all the cartridges fell into place without help .  I took them out to the range today and fired a bunch that were loaded with 3.5gr of Promo and some that were loaded 5.5gr.  The 5.5 worked better as far as high primers are concerned but with the dirty cylinders I am not sure that I gave it a fair test.  I am going to clean the revolvers and load up some at 4.5gr and try that.  We are expecting high winds for the next couple of days so I may not get to the range until Wednesday.  The Redding profile crimp die works great, a lot better than the Lee FCD.  I will update this thread when I have tried the new load in clean revolvers.

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After dinner this evening I realized that there would be just enough daylight left for me to go to our local range to try out the 4.5 gr. loads.  They had more kick than I would have liked but I only had 2 primers back out of the 50 that I fired.  And they were not out very much.  I think that between cleaning the guns, increasing the powder charge and using the Redding profile crimp die I am good to go.

I did have a little trouble with the crimp die.  I think I had it screwed in to deep because a few of the cases had a little wrinkle in them.  All my brass is several times fired and a few may be taller then the others.  I raised the die up a little and the rest of the cartridges looked fine.  I will load up some more 4.5 gr. and go back to the range once this wind storm they are predicting gets passed us,

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9 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Why not try 5.0gn? :huh:

OLG 

The whole idea for the lighter charges is to reduce recoil.  With the heavier charge when I shoot my revolvers the gun starts to pivot upwards and my hand looses hold of the grip from the bottom.

9 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

How much front to back play(endshake)do the cylinders have?

OLG 

None they fit the frame well.

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11 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Then give 4.7 gn a go.

Do you have any magnum LP primers to try?

OLG 

OLG

4.5 is already too strong but I guess I will have to live with it if it keeps the primers in place.  I don’t have any magnum primers and all the gun stores in this area are closed because of C-19.

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Really don't think you'll feel any difference from 4.5 to 4.7.

That .2 gr will help with the burn.

Do you know anydangbody that you could 'borrow' some mag LP primers from.

I do feel they would really help here.

OLG 

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Sorry, I have not read every post.

 

When I was loading commercially for cas shooters, there was an issue with some of the Original Vaqueros. in 44-40.

The cylinder chambers where smaller than the 44 caliber barrels installed on the frame.

The cylinder chamber throats where undersized causing poor accuracy and ammunition having to be loaded with undersized bullets to fit properly in the cylinders.

 

A friend, Old Scout, a life long gunsmith would recut the cylinder throats the proper diameter.

Made reloading for me much easier and the customers found accuracy was much better.

 

After cutting, the bullet size used went from .428" to .430".

Bullet retrieved after shooting showed good rifling marks on the bullets.

Not so with bullets fired before recutting.

Those bullets looked like bullets that were over speed and stripped the sides of the bullets clean.

When actually the bullets were not engaging the rifling enough to mark the sides of the bullets.

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11 minutes ago, Cliff Hanger #3720LR said:

Sorry, I have not read every post.

 

When I was loading commercially for cas shooters, there was an issue with some of the Original Vaqueros. in 44-40.

The cylinder chambers where smaller than the 44 caliber barrels installed on the frame.

The cylinder chamber throats where undersized causing poor accuracy and ammunition having to be loaded with undersized bullets to fit properly in the cylinders.

 

A friend, Old Scout, a life long gunsmith would recut the cylinder throats the proper diameter.

Made reloading for me much easier and the customers found accuracy was much better.

 

After cutting, the bullet size used went from .428" to .430".

Bullet retrieved after shooting showed good rifling marks on the bullets.

Not so with bullets fired before recutting.

Those bullets looked like bullets that were over speed and stripped the sides of the bullets clean.

When actually the bullets were not engaging the rifling enough to mark the sides of the bullets.

 

He's using UBERTI revolvers.

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1848509822_ColtSAAantiqued2Feb2020.jpg.92466f973ebea1e2eda8d84666aedc01.jpg

 

I got this Colt home and it really looked clean.  I grabbed a part box of C45S and went out to shoot it.  I had trouble getting it loaded, having to push the cartridges in some chambers.  I think I had a FTF on first cylinder load.  The cases came out with black gunk on them.  The chambers looked like an empty tar bucket!  I tried brushing and patching but it was a mess. I finally washed it out with hot water. With clean chambers, the cartridges fall in and out and go off 100% of the time. 

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13 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

He's using UBERTI revolvers.

 

Yeah but Uberti has been known to have tight chambers also.  Not all and not as tight. 

 

Sawmill Mary's Smokewagons.  Even though she shoots loads of Unique with Missouri Bullet Company coated bullets,  I clean the chambers on her guns between ever match just to make sure they will chamber ok. 

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Posted (edited)

Many times when crimping the 44-40 cartridge, the roll crimp causes a bulge below the the crimp. If this exceeds the chamber dimensions, the cartridge may not want to chamber. Sometimes in a rifle this is not noticed because the lever pushes it in un-noticed but the revolver is a different story.

This is what it looks like.

The Redding Profile crimp squishes it back down while it crimps

https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/handloading/redding-profile-crimp-die

 

67946279_1232264906954090_4466792702536581120_n2.jpg

Edited by Savvy Jack
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I hate to leave people hanging so here is my conclusion.  I am up to 5.0 gr. of Promo using the Redding profile crimp die and tried them out at the range today.  They all worked great without any jamming problems.  They still had more kick then I would like but if I grip the gun a little harder I think I can live with it.  They worked well in the carbine also.  Thanks for all the replies and help.  I am thinking of changing my caliber to 357/38 but that will have to wait until I have shot up all my 44-40 ammo and I just ordered more bullets from Missouri bullet.  This will also give me an excuse to buy some more guns!

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Sorry if this has been mentioned, but have you thought of trying a lighter bullet? There are 185 and 165 gr bullets out there.

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3 minutes ago, Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L said:

Sorry if this has been mentioned, but have you thought of trying a lighter bullet? There are 185 and 165 gr bullets out there.

No I haden't thought of that.  I will check it out to see if I can get any lighter bullets.  Thanks for the idea.

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Missouri Bullet and Bear Creek make 165gr, I've used both in my wife's 44 Spec. Bear Creek is a hollow base with no crimp groove so you can adjust the OAL easily.

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Posted (edited)
Quote

...using the Redding profile crimp die and tried them out at the range today.

 

Ya gotta love the Redding profile crimp. It works well with lead or jacketed bullets of the correct "profile". It uses two different crimp options. Lead is the first setting, gives it a nice taper crimp into the soft lead. Screw it in further for the jacked crimp option.

 

78926364_567099084077593_2180765710353956864_n.jpg

Edited by Savvy Jack
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Savvy Jack, thanks for the link to the 44-40 history.  It was a good read.

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