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Buckshot Bob

Shotgun Practice dummies ?

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There seems to be two schools of thought when making these 

Fill the hull with some foam and crimp it , and fill the powder area with something and put a wad and shot in 

I can see how the light dummy would benefit for a more realistic feel ejecting , and the heavy one would allow 

for a more realistic feel loading. And maybe it doesn’t matter either way and I’m just over thinking this 

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Do not put in shot. If your practicing with a double it gives you a false sense of shucking the shells hard enough if you use loaded ones. If your shooting a 97 it is much harder on the life if the extractor and ejector if you practice a lot. 

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EMPTY! Feel when loading means nothing. Feel when shucking is everything. 

 

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I put 1/2 of a Walmart plastic bag inside.    No shot.    GW

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For practice with a double, I load two empties in chamber. My reload is live shell weight. Let's you shuck and reload. 

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9 minutes ago, doc roy l. pain said:

Do not put in shot. If your practicing with a double it gives you a false sense of shucking the shells hard enough if you use loaded ones. If your shooting a 97 it is much harder on the life if the extractor and ejector if you practice a lot. 

It’s going to be a 87 , but it seems the same rules apply 

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Plus, I  scrounge the emptys bucket at the range for odd colored hulls for dummys I make for friends and myself.   If you shoot green Remingtons I make clear or orange Fiochi to avoid confusion with your live shells.  Anything that does not look like the shells you shoot     GW

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Another excellent video from Warden       GW

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I am sort of 70/30 on this dummy situation.  Absolutely no doubt that shucking with a weighted hull is far to easy and not a lot of room to learn for real match speed, especially recovery from hull that does not release for what ever the reason.  However, IMO, one learns speed loading much better with a  hull containing some weight.  I sometime use some silicone and piece of wood dowel which is a bit of compromise.  I guess practicing with both nets better learning at the end of the day.

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I use a full weight and empty weight hulls.

 

i break the method down into its components instead of a complete belt to floor approach.

 

i practice the loading and firing portion (belt to gun) or loaded to shucking (gun to floor).

 

when the shells become resistant to load or shuck I use my roll crimping tool to reset the end of the shell that gets beat up.

image.thumb.jpeg.b0e0a633bf79047a2d57f026d2982bdf.jpeg

 

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I use hot pink and orange hulls for dummy rounds. I do not buy loaded ammo in either color and hulls I get in those colors do not get reloaded.. 

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All of my Monthly Practice sessions have been cancelled.  My workout is to load live shells "at the buzzer" and shuck empty shells.  Seems to work really well.

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I use green hulls, as I typically shoot red AA's.  I've taken a bit of a different tact.  I punch out the primer and cut the hulls to length on a band saw.  I fill the hulls with clear silicone sealant, making sure the silicone extrudes through the primer hole.  I let the silicone set up, then take a razor blade and trim the silicone flush with the base in the primer hole.  I'm using these in my 97s and haven't had any issues with extractors. 

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I use spent shells. The longer length and corrugated end are a little more challenging to load and the shucking is at the correct weight and length. I believe I'm some what faster loading my double at a match after practicing this way.

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Posted (edited)

I know how to pull the trigger, so I don't pull the trigger during practice.  Why put unnecessary wear and tear on the sears and firing pins?  What I need to practice is getting shells into the chambers and shucking them out.  Opening a side by side with the hammers already cocked (since the triggers were not pulled) is easier than opening against fallen hammers, true enough, but I don't notice the difference during a match.

 

So, practice with heavy dummies to load, practice shucking with empties.  Begin with empties in chambers, shotgun shouldered.  Open, shuck, load heavy dummies.  Use a par timer to get the cycle time down.

 

Edited by J-BAR #18287
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I practice loading with dummies containing lead.  I don't practice shucking.  Instead, I pay great attention to my SG loads before a match and I clean the chambers after every other stage.  I've seldom, if ever had a shucking problem.  Practicing shucking with a dummy that has the end crimped is illusory.  If the chamber is properly reamed and polished, the metal head will nearly never expand and hang up, if it is made out of proper material and is not split.   

The shot-open crimp is yet another story.  After a couple firings, they often over-expand and exert grip force on the chamber sides.  My chambers are bored 3" to give a bit more room at the crimp end.  But again, proper attention to the ammo and gun will eliminate need for shucking practice.  

 

Here's how I prepare my SG rounds:

 

First, I closely examine every hull for signs of end thinning or cracking, discarding anything that even looks suspicious.  (If in doubt, throw it out).  I use Remington STS green or gold hulls exclusively.  

 

1.  When loading, I hold the final crimp die down hard on each round for a couple seconds to allow the plastic to fully stretch into place, so there is minimal spring-back recovery after the pressure is removed. 

 

2. After each round is loaded, I pass BOTH ENDS  through a MEC Super Sizer, tightened to maximum closure, to be sure the case is not expanded by the loading process.   The crimp end is only inserted about 1" to avoid engaging the head recess in the bottom of the SS collet.  

 

3.  The loaded and sized rounds are laid out on a cookie sheet, and given a light spray of Hornady's One Shot.  I tilt the tray back and forth to get better coverage.  

 

4. If the rounds have been stored more than a few days, they go back through the Super Sizer the night before the match. 

 

5. As I put the rounds into my SG belt, I put each one through a Slix Crimp Reconditioner that hangs on my cart. 

 

It sounds like a lot of trouble, but if I didn't enjoy the loading, I probably wouldn't shoot.  And everyone I've ever loaned SG shells to has come back and said "Wow!"

 

6.  After every other stage, I use a dry Cyclone Brush to scrub residue out of the chamber and forcing cone.  Then I use the brush itself as a barb to push a large (3"x3") clean patch down the barrel.  My squib rod has a small enough handle to be able to pass right through my SxS, so the chamber cleaning goes fast.  

 

7.  After the patch, the chamber gets, a very light spray of One Shot. 

 

Doing all of that preparation, I haven't found stuck hulls to be a problem, or to require practicing.  

I'm just sharing here.  Use whatever you find helpful.  

DDD

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Howdy Buckshot.

Some of the best, finest and fastest SG shooters in SASS all have their varied and favored ways

in their dry fire practice.   

 

And there are some that will advise that a certain % of your practice be dry and live.

 

And probably no 2 or 3 do it the same.

 

Basically, just do it with the method you think works best for you.

If you want to weight em down or not, I'm not convinced it will matter much 

as the mere fact that you are dry firing will be the major point in improving your SG 

speed and efficiency.

 

BUT, one thing you will find common among the top SG shooters in SASS..... they do practice

and they practice A LOT!

If you're serious about being a Top SG shooter, dedicate yourself to steady and

regular practice sessions.

 

Best regards.

 

..........Widder

 

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I don't want to hijack the thread but I am going to toss a little tangent in here.  Multiple folks have stated they start with empties in the gun and full dummies in their belt.  This gives accurate feel for both shucking and loading.  Okay, I can see that, but is that really "complete" practice?

 

I ask that for a couple of reasons.  #1 it doesn't provide practice for stages that start with the shotgun. #2 It doesn't provide practice for stages that call for more than six shotgun rounds.  In my ever so humble opinion, if you aren't practicing at least six shotgun rounds then you're not practicing. (Yes, that's a total exaggeration.) 

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Here's how I make mine:

De-prime hull.  Put a wad in (any wad will do).  Fill it as high as you need to with rice to get a good crimp.  Crimp.

Push 6mm O-Ring stock into primer hole as far as possible (which will be to the bottom of the wad) and trim flush.

 

I like O-ring a lot better than hot-glue or silicone as it is stiffer and lasts for thousands of firing pin hits.

 

If I give you advice and it doesn't work, you did something wrong.

Possum

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55 minutes ago, Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 said:

Here's how I make mine:

De-prime hull.  Put a wad in (any wad will do).  Fill it as high as you need to with rice to get a good crimp.  Crimp.

Push 6mm O-Ring stock into primer hole as far as possible (which will be to the bottom of the wad) and trim flush.

 

I like O-ring a lot better than hot-glue or silicone as it is stiffer and lasts for thousands of firing pin hits.

 

If I give you advice and it doesn't work, you did something wrong.

Possum

 

How I do mine.

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1 hour ago, Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 said:

Here's how I make mine:

De-prime hull.  Put a wad in (any wad will do).  Fill it as high as you need to with rice to get a good crimp.  Crimp.

Push 6mm O-Ring stock into primer hole as far as possible (which will be to the bottom of the wad) and trim flush.

 

I like O-ring a lot better than hot-glue or silicone as it is stiffer and lasts for thousands of firing pin hits.

 

If I give you advice and it doesn't work, you did something wrong.

Possum

I like the rice idea , it’s a nice compromise on weight . In the past whenever I made dummies it was from the perspective of firearms function . So I used rice for the powder and lead . Thanks 

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3 hours ago, Shooting Bull said:

I don't want to hijack the thread but I am going to toss a little tangent in here.  Multiple folks have stated they start with empties in the gun and full dummies in their belt.  This gives accurate feel for both shucking and loading.  Okay, I can see that, but is that really "complete" practice?

 

I ask that for a couple of reasons.  #1 it doesn't provide practice for stages that start with the shotgun. #2 It doesn't provide practice for stages that call for more than six shotgun rounds.  In my ever so humble opinion, if you aren't practicing at least six shotgun rounds then you're not practicing. (Yes, that's a total exaggeration.) 

 

I agree with SB on practicing with 6 dummy rounds.  

One of the bennies of practicing with 6 is if that rare occurrence a KD doesn't fall, you are ready

to get back down to the belt for those extra rounds needed.

It can be done in LESS than 1 second..... but ya gotta practice it.

 

Best regards.

 

..........Widder

 

 

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I don’t think practicing makes you a dummy.  I don’t practice because you don’t need practice to finish last.  If you practice and then win, what does the extra weight of buckles and plaques and trophies do to your gas mileage?

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i admire those that practice , im not much for consistency in that area and yes if not last close second but i have fun getting there , i dont fret the gas mileage or otherwise - just keep going and doing it , 

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Gas ️ is cheap right now , too bad we can’t go anywhere 

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Started with Palo Verde's empty shells for five or six years.  For me the shuck is the hardest to master.  Went from a 2 handed shuck to a one handed shuck.  It took a year just to get the hang of it.  Still along ways from the one second a shell mark.  As long as the shotgun and shells from my belt meet at the same time I feel like I am doing ok.  Last year I added shells with shot just to practice the load.  Now I mix them up in my belt.  Sometimes I will turn off the lights in our closet and I practice using eight shells.  I flip on the lights, reload my belt, flip off the lights and go again.  This has helped with consistency on my load; less mistakes.   It is also important to practice live fire and using your sights.  Just don't do it in your closet!!!

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5 hours ago, Kirk James said:

Started with Palo Verde's empty shells for five or six years.  For me the shuck is the hardest to master.  Went from a 2 handed shuck to a one handed shuck.  It took a year just to get the hang of it.  Still along ways from the one second a shell mark.  As long as the shotgun and shells from my belt meet at the same time I feel like I am doing ok.  Last year I added shells with shot just to practice the load.  Now I mix them up in my belt.  Sometimes I will turn off the lights in our closet and I practice using eight shells.  I flip on the lights, reload my belt, flip off the lights and go again.  This has helped with consistency on my load; less mistakes.   It is also important to practice live fire and using your sights.  Just don't do it in your closet!!!

^

More good info.   I didn't know whether to put a 'LIKE' for it or a 'Laugh' for the closet practice comment.

 

But I like the idea of 'blind' dry fire practice.   I never went into the closet, but I have practice with my 

eyes closed.

Its kinda like picking a guitar so much that you can do it without looking.   Thats how those pros do it.

 

..........Widder

 

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This thread has become of much more interest than I initially thought it would.  I have found the debate of light to weighted hulls to bring up great points no matter which you prefer.  In fact, the idea of combination of both, as Kirk and others have suggested, is influencing me more.  Loading needs near weight of match ammo for load speed yet light is much better to get the shucking more efficient & timed.

 

Understand that I do not reload shotgun so the lack of shotgun press gives making dummy rounds become like several other ventures, to make do with what I have,   I have tried the use of empties as Mossy Pop mentioned but found them to long and frustrating to use with little or no the feel of speed gain overall.  So, here is what I have been doing of late, initiated by this thread (thanks for OP B Bob).

 

Remove primer from spent hull with old ice pick, with Dremel cut off the crimp end of hull, snip off a small section of that cut-off ring to make it of small enough diameter to fit just inside & flush with remaining portion of  hull (glue the "ring" in place) ,  fill primer hole with silicone (although I do want to eventually try the 6mm o-ring method).  After glue dries, I use one of SliX shotgun combo sizer checkers which is  important in my process especially on new formed end.  This extra "ring" in end gives more strength to that weak part so extending life of the lite dummy.

 

I am so far pleased that I now have a dummy that is size of regular ammo and weight of empty.  Yes, the loading technique  with lites is a tad more of challenge but after a few practice sessions, seemingly advantageous.  I have been  making runs with 4-6 lights or a mixture of lites and others of more weight..

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@Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator  PM me your address and how many weighted vs unweighted you need and I'll make them up this weekend. Should be able to put 6 of each in a small flat rate box 

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Posted (edited)

Good post, Billy.

 

In my previous post, I didn't mention anything about my actual dummy rounds that I use for

DRY FIRE practice.

They are totally empty with the crimp portion of the hulls rolled back inside the hull to make the

front portion maintain some concentric form.   Nothing is put in the primer pocket and nothing

is put inside the empty hull for weight.

 

BUT, that being stated, I agree that using both types can give you a better 'feel' in your dry fire

application.

 

All that being stated, I will share this with you, based on MY experience:    

If you dry fire 1000 times, or even 10,000 times,

and achieve some of those "WOW" speeds in dry fire, very little of that will show up at a 

match unless you have an appropriate amount of LIVE FIRE practice also.

Your techniques will help, but the speed portion will be way off without live fire practice.

 

The Pards above have shared some good info with you.   Enjoy!

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

Edited by Widder, SASS #59054
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18 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

@Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator  PM me your address and how many weighted vs unweighted you need and I'll make them up this weekend. Should be able to put 6 of each in a small flat rate box 

Thanks Dave.  Although what I have is working, they get battered up fast so sent you a PM.

Thanks a bunch.  

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31 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Good post, Billy.

 

In my previous post, I didn't mention anything about my actual dummy rounds that I use for

DRY FIRE practice.

They are totally empty with the crimp portion of the hulls rolled back inside the hull to make the

front portion maintain some concentric form.   Nothing is put in the primer pocket and nothing

is put inside the empty hull for weight.

 

BUT, that being stated, I agree that using both types can give you a better 'feel' in your dry fire

application.

 

All that being stated, I will share this with you, based on MY experience:    

If you dry fire 1000 times, or even 10,000 times,

and achieve some of those "WOW" speeds in dry fire, very little of that will show up at a 

match unless you have an appropriate amount of LIVE FIRE practice also.

Your techniques will help, but the speed portion will be way off without live fire practice.

 

The Pards above have shared some good info with you.   Enjoy!

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

W,

I certainly agree.  I, as you, live rather rural, so have a good place to live fire practice also.  But, in bad weather or no desire to fire the real stuff, I do like to dry fire, and make it almost a daily routine.  Fortunately I have a nice shop and covered area that allows  dry practice to be  convenient at house in most any kind of weather, and really nice if I don't want to go to range about quarter mile from house at other side of  ranch.

bb

 

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Quote

Shotgun Practice dummies?

Who're you callin' dummies?  :P

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