Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum
Sign in to follow this  
Dusty Devil Dale

. 32 H&R Mag reloading problem

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)

I'm loading . 32 H&R Magnum on a Dillon 650XL and having a persistent problem.  I'm wondering if anyone else is having the same experience.  

 

When cases are fed into the shell plate, they have a slight outward tilt of about 1.5mm, which is just enough to misalign the case with the mouth of the depriming die.  Almost every case needs to be manually pressed gently inward, to avoid the lip of the case from being severely damaged by the die moving downward.  The Case Insert Slide and Cam are properly adjusted to position the case at the extreme inside of the Shell Plate case positioning slots.  I have confirmed that the Shell Plate is absolutely solid, and perpendicular (measured) with the resizing die, during operation.  The Shell Plate Bolt tension is properly adjusted to hold the plate in the perpendicular position.  Even when I manually place a case into the Shell Plate, the tilt is evident, so it is not related to the feeding mechanism.  

 

One possibility is that the shell plate itself is the problem.  It is manufactured to work as a hybrid for  .32 H&R Mag. and  .32-20.  The 32-20 case has a 0.01 thicker base than . 32  H&R Mag.  So the thinner . 32 H&R Mag. can wobble slightly in the locator slots.  So if case bases are even microscopically bulged, it could be allowing the tilt.  To test, I put several empty cases in the lathe and trimmed their base exactly flat and 90 degrees. When I put them manually into the Shell Plate, they had the same outward lean.   

So I am perplexed.  The only other possibility I can envision is if the bottom of the locator slots in the Shell Plate themselves are machined with an outward tilt.  That is quite difficult to measure, enen in the mill, because of the slots covering up part of the bottom.  But as above, the lathe-cut cases do tilt outwardly, when set into the Shell Plate slots.  

 

I have not yet contacted Dillon, because I wanted to find out first if others have this problem.  

Can anybody offer any thoughts or advice? 

 

  

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are your spent primers extended slightly past the bottom of the case, that would make the case tilt. Try one with the primer removed or a new unprimed case.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, Snake-eye, SASS#45097 said:

Are your spent primers extended slightly past the bottom of the case, that would make the case tilt. Try one with the primer removed or a new unprimed case.

I tried it with new cases, trued flat and square in the lathe, no primers.  Even the brand new Starline cases tilt outward on the Shell Plate.

Since my OP, I double checked to be sure the resizing die is in proper alignment.  It is exactly 90 degrees.  And yes, I very thoroughly cleaned the slots in the Shell Plate both chemically and mechanically.   

 

If I was only having problems with fired cases, I would wonder about the prior resizing cycles, need for better lubrication, and case deformation.  But these are new cases.  

 

Perhaps I should just Call Dillon Tech Support, get their thoughts and a new Shell Plate, and work from there.  So much for DIY.  

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lee has different case holder for .32 H&R mag and .32/20.

 

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Call Dillon, they have great support. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Tom Bullweed said:

Lee has different case holder for .32 H&R mag and .32/20.

 

That is very helpful.  Thank you.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am having the very same problem but mine is with my 550 Dillon. Using new Star-Line 32-HR brass, tried lowering shell plate, help some, but still not right, will call Dillon in the morning. Glad it's not just me.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I loaded commercially for 18 years for CAS shooters.

 

What you discribe would have me removing the shell plate and checking the rim groove for lube or dirt build up.

Using a good screw driver, scrape the groove on the shell plate clean.

Try this firrst.

 

Edited by Cliff Hanger #3720LR
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Cliff Hanger #3720LR said:

I loaded commercially for 18 years for CAS shooters.

 

What you discribe whould have me removing the shell plate and checking the rim groove for lube or dirt build up.

Using a good screw driver, scrape the groove on the shell plate clean.

Try this firrst.

 

Did all of that mechanical cleaning stuff.  Then  I soaked it in carburetor cleaner overnight.  Then for an hour in full strength Simple Green in the ultrasound, then steamed in a jewelry  steamer jet.  It made no difference. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Bulldog Brown said:

I am having the very same problem but mine is with my 550 Dillon. Using new Star-Line 32-HR brass, tried lowering shell plate, help some, but still not right, will call Dillon in the morning. Glad it's not just me.

Is your Shell Plate a Dillon hybrid caliber plate? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Cliff Hanger, will try this in the morning, will let you know the out come

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dusty Devil Dale: Mine is a Dillon, Have loaded 1000 new Star-Line, with no problems, just this last 500, have even reamed the primmer pocket to help primers seat .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have never used or operated a 650 press, however, I do load 32 H&R on a 550 press.  I had the same problem which was caused by the paper clip looking wire which holds the base of the cartridge in the shell plate.  In my case there was too much tension on the case rim which was causing the case mouth to mis-align with the sizing die.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Cliff Hanger #3720LR said:

I loaded commercially for 18 years for CAS shooters.

 

What you discribe whould have me removing the shell plate and checking the rim groove for lube or dirt build up.

Using a good screw driver, scrape the groove on the shell plate clean.

Try this firrst.

 

 

This-Plus make sure you have NO up/down play in the shell plate when reinstalled.

OLG 

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Bulldog Brown said:

Dusty Devil Dale: Mine is a Dillon, Have loaded 1000 new Star-Line, with no problems, just this last 500, have even reamed the primmer pocket to help primers seat .

Thanks for sharing.  It sounds soooo familiar. 

I'm wondering if repeated light down pressure depriming, and seating bullets has gradually deformed the center-outside of the bottoms of the Shell Plate locator slots (death by a thousand cuts, so to speak).  It would only take a tiny deformation to tilt the lip of these long cases a couple mm.

 

It's too late tonight to start, but tomorrow I'm going to set up the Shell Plate level in a precision mill, and advance a non-roataing cutter inward on the disc to see if it runs aground as it advances.  If it does, I will have my /our answer. 

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Ace Hanlon said:

I have never used or operated a 650 press, however, I do load 32 H&R on a 550 press.  I had the same problem which was caused by the paper clip looking wire which holds the base of the cartridge in the shell plate.  In my case there was too much tension on the case rim which was causing the case mouth to mis-align with the sizing die.

 

There should be NO tension of the 'paper clip' against the casehead.

It should just barely touch. 

OLG 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

An Idea just struck me.  Should have thought of it much sooner. 

 

I load the . 32 cal for my wife, and that caliber is where all of this unacceptable - - - and possibly DANGEROUS ! (don't tell her) - - - problem is occurring.  Obviously SHE needs a brand new XL-750! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

 

There should be NO tension of the 'paper clip' against the casehead.

It should just barely touch. 

OLG 

I was mainly thinking of down pressure on the case sides during resizing.   The .32s seem prone to some deformation during firing, despite very tight chambers in the Single Six. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

I was mainly thinking of down pressure on the case sides during resizing.   The .32s seem prone to some deformation during firing, despite very tight chambers in the Single Six. 

The Dillon 'paperclip' will tilt a case, if it puts any pressure on the case head rim. BTDT

OLG 

 

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I had another thought.

Starts with questions.

The cases that are leaning are they fired cases or new?

If fired does the leaning happen at all stations?

 

There were times I would readjust teh sizing die and for get to readjust the decapping pin.

The pin would end up putting pressure on the bottom of the cases after removing the spent primer

The pin would pushd the pocket bottom down taking the centr of the rim sith it.

It's not much but enough to make the case bottom not flat.

 

My other thougth was covered by Old Lumpy Grits.

The spring loaded arm that holds the case in place at the priming station will push the case over if the arm is too tight against teh case.

My machines have a piece of wire I bent a V in to to hold the cases vertically in the priming station.

 

I also beveled the throats on my Lee dies to make the lead in bigger for those cases that lean in a little.

 

Edited by Cliff Hanger #3720LR
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Cliff Hanger #3720LR said:

Ihad another thought.

Starts with questions.

The cases that are leaning are they fired cases or new?

If fired does the leaning happen at all stations?

 

There were times I would readjust teh sizing die and for get to readjust the decapping pin.

The pin would end up putting pressure on the bottom of the cases after removing the spent primer

The pin would pushd the pocket bottom down taking the centr of the rim sith it.

It's not much but enough to make the case bottom not flat.

 

My other thougth was covered by Old Lumpy Grits.

The spring loaded arm that holds the case in place at the priming station will push the case over if the arm is too tight against teh case.

My machines have a piece of wire I bent a V in to to hold the cases vertically in the priming station.

 

I also beveled the throats on my Lee dies to make the lead in bigger for those cases that lean in a little.

 

1.  It tilts both fired and new unprimed Starline cases. 

2..  The cases tilt before the stage is raised and sizing die is engaged, so it isn't related to the pin. 

3.  the leaning happens at the depriming and priming/powder drop stations.  It may also occur at the seating and crimp stations, but that has not been an evident problem.   I need to check and see.   If the problem is the Shell Plate, then the tilt should occur at all stations.  

4.  I need to check the spring tension at the priming station.   It occasionally is off center and so  jambs a case against the end of the belling fixture, but I haven't looked critically to see which side of the case is engaged.  If it is a problem of the Shell Plate tilting outward,  then the inside of the case lip would be hit/damaged.  If the spring is too tight against the case, it would push the case inward, and so hit/damage the outside of the lip.  I need to check and see. 

5.  The throat on the carbide resize die is extremely hard and would be very difficult to cut to increase its bevel.  I would need to grind it on the lathe arbor grinder. 

 

--- And I'd really rather get the core alignment issue squared away, rather than band-aid it by trying to modify the dies.  Running dies down over a misaligned case seems like a recipe for asymmetrically sized cases and "banana cartridges". 

 

 

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The retainer spring at stage one was my issue. I left it set the same as for .38s, thinking it was unimportant to adjust. Cases hung up under the powder funnel and dented the case mouth. There is play in the cases no matter how tight the shell plate. Also, take your time. If I hurry to raise the cases they jam in this way more. 

Adjust spring to the point of just clearing the case and take your time. See if it helps.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

A 32-20 case has a base closer to the size of a 38 spl. case than a 32 Mag base.  I haven’t converted my 650 to load either 32-20 or 32 Mag yet but the Dillon shell plate for the 550 is different for the two calibers.

 

The center of the smaller based 32 Mag case would be closer to the center of the machine if you are using a 32-20 sized shell plate.  That would make the case seem to be canted inward even if it were vertical.   
 

Just for the record, a Dillon 650 doesn’t have the same paper clip retainer that a 550 does, so I’m sure that’s not DDD’s problem.
 

I agree with some of the other responders that the solution is to call Dillon support.

Edited by Cypress Sam, SASS #10915
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Michigan Slim said:

The retainer spring at stage one was my issue. I left it set the same as for .38s, thinking it was unimportant to adjust. Cases hung up under the powder funnel and dented the case mouth. There is play in the cases no matter how tight the shell plate. Also, take your time. If I hurry to raise the cases they jam in this way more. 

Adjust spring to the point of just clearing the case and take your time. See if it helps.

This is the problem I had with loading 32-20.  

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Michigan Slim said:

The retainer spring at stage one was my issue. I left it set the same as for .38s, thinking it was unimportant to adjust. Cases hung up under the powder funnel and dented the case mouth. There is play in the cases no matter how tight the shell plate. Also, take your time. If I hurry to raise the cases they jam in this way more. 

Adjust spring to the point of just clearing the case and take your time. See if it helps.

Yep, and as OLG said, make sure there isn't too much play in the shell plate.  I'm loading 32 H&R right now and I tighten the shell plate down to where it won't quite turn, then back off just a bit and tighten the set screw (or whatever it's called).

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is a Dillon my colt 45's do the same just a bad design.

  • Confused 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Judge Gardner said:

It is a Dillon my colt 45's do the same just a bad design.

 

How so? :huh:

OLG 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
59 minutes ago, Judge Gardner said:

It is a Dillon my colt 45's do the same just a bad design.

I have no issue with .45 Colt. Check your die alignment. Run a case into all the stations then tighten all the lock rings at the same time. I have a feeling that most of what you experience will go away.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

AHAA!!! 

Nothing I tried was correcting either the case-to-resize die misalignment or the misalignment of the case lip to the powder funnel belling surface.  

I disassembled the platform, to be able to check centricity and run-out angle of the center bolt that anchors the shell plate down.  In the process, I measured everything I could think of. 

The center bolt thread alignment was near perfect.  But when I measured the thickness from the top of the platform casting (where it supports the shell plate) to the bored facing inside the bottom (the 1" counter-sink surrounding the center bolt, which forms the contact surface when the platform is bolted down to the center post), I found that the side nearest the operator was .007" thicker than the opposite side.  That geometrically tilted the top surface of the platform casting rearward and slightly to the right of the operator.  

I placed several .002" brass shims under the thin side of the platform, and replaced the two socket head screws that attach the platform to the center slide.   I reassembled everything and checked shell case alignment and it was nearly perfect.  After loading 300 rounds, not a single case was damaged.  

 

So if you are experiencing the case tilt problem, first check all the things mentioned here in this thread by everyone (some very good guidance).  Failing a solution from those remedies, remove the platform and check for debris under its mounting surface.  If those surfaces are clean, then take a close (thousandths) look at the thickness of the platform casting itself, between its articulating surfaces.  Try shimming the attachment points as needed to correct the issue.  

 

Two cautions.  

1) Don't forget to remove the Ring Indexer (long skinny) spring before you lift off the platform. 

2) If you will be turning the platform upside down, first remove the detent ball and spring, and the pawl and pawl spring, to avoid losing them.  

 

Much thanks to everyone who contributed here.  It was OLG's post about the powder-belling station that made me realize the tilt was occurring at stations other than just the resize station, and caused me to take the trouble to disassemble and measure up the platform.  Thanks again to everyone, and especially OLG.  

 

 

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the alignment is good Dillon sent a tool to check it.  I may have a bad shell pleat.. one side of the case is not supported.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Judge Gardner said:

the alignment is good Dillon sent a tool to check it.  I may have a bad shell pleat.. one side of the case is not supported.

 

Post up pictures with measurements. 

You sure the correct brass buttons are being used?

OLG 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Messed with shell plate, and the paper clip and got it working pretty good, just have to take your time. Bulldog Brown

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Glad you got it working but as noted by Cypress Sam 32-20 and 32 H&R use different shell plates.  If you are using shell plate O that is for 32-20.  Shell plate D is for 32 H&R.  I use shell plate D for 32 H&R with no problems.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.