Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

Advantage of magnum primers?


Dusty Devil Dale

Recommended Posts

This grew out of another thread concerning knock down power.  Questions came up about the difference in power (gas expansion and ignition capability) between small pistol magnum v. small pistol regular primers.   Specifically, I was asking if magnum primers might have increased capability to clear a squib, in the absence of powder, such as a failed powder drop.  That obviously depends on a number of factors, like barrel length, bullet material density, bullet weight, barrel dimensions, etc.  But given equal conditions, are the magnums really more powerful, and how much so.  

Does anyone have any data or personal experimentation comparing the performance of the two types?

---And while we're at it, how about differences between regular and match grade products.   Skip brand differences for now.  Let's just talk Federal products, since I think most of use them.  

Your thoughts and experience, please. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can't speak to the magnum primers, but I have used match and standard Federal Large Pistol primers for both indoor (50 foot) bullseye and CAS.   I have not noticed a difference in the to.  Possible if I was shooting BE outdoors at the 50 yard line, there would be a difference.  For CAS, I see no reason to spend the extra money, unless I can't find the standard primers.  I'd like o hear comments on the magnum primers, as right now, I'm having trouble finding standard Federal large pistol primers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My understanding is that main difference is a magnum primer has a longer burn time and a slightly hotter burn, than a standard primer; not more power.  I use them with my BP substitute loads.  I've found that longer burn time gives me more consistent performance and it keeps the guns cleaner, I assume because the magnum primer is burning more of the powder. 

 

For CAS, the only time I've bought match grade primers has been when they were all that were available.  I did not find a difference for my CAS loads.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Several years ago one of our contributors did a study of ALL the different primers complete with photographs.  I don't remember whom it was.  Was however, a really nice cache of information.  IN REVERSE ORDER:

 

There is no discernible difference between standard and match primers.  Rumor and unsubstantiated claims try to point to better quality control for match primers or perhaps more quality control steps.  Hogwash.  Primers go through the manufacturing process so fast there is no opportunity for a difference in quality control.  They (primers) go by in a blur.

 

Magnum primers produce more Brisance than standard primers.  That equated to a slightly longer (in length) and a slightly Hotter flame.  Biggest use for magnum primers is in large internal volume cases (44 Mag - 45 Colt) with hard to ignite powders or reduced powder charges.  I know several Soot Sooth Sayers whom use magnums for BP.  BP ignites easier than smokeless.  Pointless.  Some have recorded as much as a 45 or 50 FPS velocity difference between Mags and Standards.  50 FPS will make no difference in anything we do.  Bunches of loads have a larger than 50 FPS standard deviation.  Concern about 50 FPS is wasted.

 

BOTTOM LINE.

 

For 99.9 percent of applications, Magnum vs Standard Primers makes NO DIFFERENCE

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A few years back (more than a dozen or so), I contacted 2 primer makers.   CCI was one of them, and

I think Winchester or Federal was the other.

 

BOTH of them told me their a Magnum primer does give a 'hotter' flame but rather a longer lasting

flame to help ignite certain powders under certain conditions..... such as cold weather.

And that the Magnum primers are better to use with certain powders, especially those powders used

for Magnum type loads.

 

I can only relate to what those 2 primer makers told  me... a few years ago.

 

P.S. - I tell my competitors to just pull the trigger harder..... :lol:

 

..........Widder

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Like OS I use them on BP-sub loads.  The subs are hydroscopic and slowly absorb moisture if not protected.  I find mag primers give more reliable ignition.  I also use them on my long-range pistol-caliber rounds where the powder I load (W296) requires them.  A non-ballistic reason to use them: they were available many times when Federal 100s were not.  For smokeless, main match loads I just use Federal 100s.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

A few years back (more than a dozen or so), I contacted 2 primer makers.   CCI was one of them, and

I think Winchester or Federal was the other.

 

BOTH of them told me their a Magnum primer does give a 'hotter' flame but rather a longer lasting

flame to help ignite certain powders under certain conditions..... such as cold weather.

And that the Magnum primers are better to use with certain powders, especially those powders used

for Magnum type loads.

 

I can only relate to what those 2 primer makers told  me... a few years ago.

 

P.S. - I tell my competitors to just pull the trigger harder..... :lol:

 

..........Widder

 

My original question about gas expansion comes from having the misfortune to pop a few primers in the loading press, once a single primer, and once a chain reaction of about 15.  There was a flash of bright flame, and it seemed like at least a small blast of hot air, given that the second, chain detonation, fully blackened my face with soot a foot or two away, and blackened the wall about 3' away.   So there evidently is some gas expansion with the combustion produced.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Look at Edward Canby’s reply above.  Get it?

There IS a difference.

 

As I stated earlier, I use magnum primers to ensure positive ignition of the powder in a cartridge,

—  There IS a difference.

BUT, you do what you want!

 

Cat Brules

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I tested magnum and non-magnum small pistols primers many years ago and I got a constant 20 fps faster average with the magnums. In our game that's nothing. In my mind ( which is a scary place) I just feel I will get a more reliable ignition using magnums so I use them whether I really do get a more reliable ignition or not. As far as nocking a squib bullet out, some say yes and some say it just pushes the bullet further up the barrel making it harder to remove in some cases. So , my final answer after all this reply is that  I didn't answer one thing that you asked. I guess that means I can be a politician.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Does anyone know if using magnum primers would reduce the chance of having a primer back out in a light load?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Chili Pepper Kid, SASS #60463 said:

Does anyone know if using magnum primers would reduce the chance of having a primer back out in a light load?

 

I 'think' all primers have a tendency to back out..... the millisecond that the brass casing also pushes 

backwards against the firewall of a pistol/revolver or bolt face of the rifle.

When this happens, it causes the primer to 'reseat', assuming all other things are

functioning in a normal manner.

 

Anyhow, this is how it has been explained to me.   I have no testing equipment to prove such an

occurence..... but it does make sense to me.

 

..........Widder

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Chili Pepper Kid, SASS #60463 said:

Does anyone know if using magnum primers would reduce the chance of having a primer back out in a light load?

Nope...

What a mag will do is give better ignition consistency to light loads with temperature sensitive powder.

OLG 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have only antidotal evidence but a very large experience band.  I started shooting SASS in earnest in 2008 resulting in turning money into noise 20-30k times per year using a 38 and a 105 gr. bullet with 3.1 gr. of Trail Boss powder.  In practice and particularly in matches I and others would notice bang, bang Pfff, bang, bang Pfff.  These were not squibs but noticeably lighter reports.  More often with revolvers than rifle although common enough in both.  I first blamed my powder measure but soon eliminated it as a source, it did vary but only +/- 0.10 grain.  Next up was a little heaver crimp and it did help but "no cigar".  Next I tried mag primers the problem went away.     

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, twelve mile REB said:

I have only antidotal evidence but a very large experience band.  I started shooting SASS in earnest in 2008 resulting in turning money into noise 20-30k times per year using a 38 and a 105 gr. bullet with 3.1 gr. of Trail Boss powder.  In practice and particularly in matches I and others would notice bang, bang Pfff, bang, bang Pfff.  These were not squibs but noticeably lighter reports.  More often with revolvers than rifle although common enough in both.  I first blamed my powder measure but soon eliminated it as a source, it did vary but only +/- 0.10 grain.  Next up was a little heaver crimp and it did help but "no cigar".  Next I tried mag primers the problem went away.     

What powder were you using?  Was it very low volume in the case, such as Titegroup? I could see how a hotter primer would help in that situation.   Did you ever happen to check to see if the rounds fired equally with the revolver or rifle pointed down v. up? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, twelve mile REB said:

I have only antidotal evidence but a very large experience band.  I started shooting SASS in earnest in 2008 resulting in turning money into noise 20-30k times per year using a 38 and a 105 gr. bullet with 3.1 gr. of Trail Boss powder.  In practice and particularly in matches I and others would notice bang, bang Pfff, bang, bang Pfff.  These were not squibs but noticeably lighter reports.  More often with revolvers than rifle although common enough in both.  I first blamed my powder measure but soon eliminated it as a source, it did vary but only +/- 0.10 grain.  Next up was a little heaver crimp and it did help but "no cigar".  Next I tried mag primers the problem went away.     

 

What were the temperatures when you had those issues?

OLG 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

What powder were you using?  Was it very low volume in the case, such as Titegroup? I could see how a hotter primer would help in that situation.   Did you ever happen to check to see if the rounds fired equally with the revolver or rifle pointed down v. up? 

He sayz it's TB. ;)

OLG 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Chili Pepper Kid, SASS #60463 said:

Does anyone know if using magnum primers would reduce the chance of having a primer back out in a light load?

In a manner of speaking, a primer is just another projectile seated at the other end of a cartridge. Just doesn't have an opening to travel through but a stop, which re-seats it.  If the other end could be the igniter of course.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

45 minutes ago, Major BS Walker Regulator said:

In a manner of speaking, a primer is just another projectile seated at the other end of a cartridge. Just doesn't have an opening to travel through but a stop, which re-seats it.  If the other end could be the igniter of course.  

 

Well stated.   AND..... the case is a projectile also and moves rearward also, as much as the firewall or boltface

allows.

 

..........Widder

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

 

What were the temperatures when you had those issues?

OLG 

I eliminated temperature as a cause because it happened year around.  Living in Utah at 5k ft. 0 C or below is common 4 mts. out of the year.  In addition it happened at EOT which certainly isn't cold.  It could and likely had some issue with position but as I was dealing with a match issue a solution was all I was interested in.  It well could have been several things or a combination of factors.  The solution however was more primer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, twelve mile REB said:

I eliminated temperature as a cause because it happened year around.  Living in Utah at 5k ft. 0 C or below is common 4 mts. out of the year.  In addition it happened at EOT which certainly isn't cold.  It could and likely had some issue with position but as I was dealing with a match issue a solution was all I was interested in.  It well could have been several things or a combination of factors.  The solution however was more primer.

 

Just up the charge .2-.3gn and I bet the issue goes away.

Also, how often do you recalibrate your powder scale?

OLG 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, twelve mile REB said:

I eliminated temperature as a cause because it happened year around.  Living in Utah at 5k ft. 0 C or below is common 4 mts. out of the year.  In addition it happened at EOT which certainly isn't cold.  It could and likely had some issue with position but as I was dealing with a match issue a solution was all I was interested in.  It well could have been several things or a combination of factors.  The solution however was more primer.

I got that too. I went to 3.5 grains and no more issues. And no recoil either.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

I could see how a hotter primer would help in that situation.  

 

According to some Primer Manufacturers, the Magnum primers are not necessarily 'hotter' but rather

they produce a longer lasting flash.

 

If anyone has any information contrary to this from the manufacturers, I would more than welcome some

updated info.   Thanks.

 

..........Widder

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

According to some Primer Manufacturers, the Magnum primers are not necessarily 'hotter' but rather

they produce a longer lasting flash.

 

If anyone has any information contrary to this from the manufacturers, I would more than welcome some

updated info.   Thanks.

 

..........Widder

 

Magnum primer produce more brisance. High brisance can cause powder to be shattered prior to ignition. This not a good thing as it causes variation in burn rate and results in reduced accuracy. The increased brisance in Magnum cases is required to raise the pressure in the larger case to insure the proper burning of smokeless powders. Many Magnum cases are not really Magnums in the true sense of the word. The 357 Magnum is nothing more than an elongated 38 sp case and then loaded to higher pressures. The case was made longer to keep shooters from loading the higher pressure loads in 38sp guns that could not withstand the increased pressures.

In older 38sp guns, the use of reloads on the top end of the chart and then using a magnum primer could cause the gun to become a hand held bomb.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

 

Just up the charge .2-.3gn and I bet the issue goes away.

Also, how often do you recalibrate your powder scale?

OLG 

But you see I didn't want to increase the powder charge.  What I had worked and works very very well.  I recalibrate my scale as often as it needs it which isn't often.  However, I check the calibration regularly with certified scale weights.  Maybe what bothers me wouldn't bother you but whether I scoop the powder up with a teaspoon, poke feathers in the case or use axle grease as bullet lube.  A magnum primer solved the problem without changing any outside the case parameters such as accuracy, reliability and recoil.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mag primers from everything I have read add to the overall load by about .2 or a tad more. So if you are shooting really light loads or light loads in the cold the extra bit the primer adds might help as you have seen in a few of these replies. 

 

I played that game for a while using light loads and Fed 100's in the spring summer and fall and 200 Mag primers in the winter. It worked but it was counterproductive IMHO. Now I just use enough powder and it's much easier, safer and you shoot just as well........probably even better. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, twelve mile REB said:

But you see I didn't want to increase the powder charge.  What I had worked and works very very well.  I recalibrate my scale as often as it needs it which isn't often.  However, I check the calibration regularly with certified scale weights.  Maybe what bothers me wouldn't bother you but whether I scoop the powder up with a teaspoon, poke feathers in the case or use axle grease as bullet lube.  A magnum primer solved the problem without changing any outside the case parameters such as accuracy, reliability and recoil.   

 

Powder changes from one lot to the next. A crono will prove this.

Think of the .2 gn powder increase as additional 'insurance' of no issues.

OLG 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Cowboy Junky said:

Mag primers from everything I have read add to the overall load by about .2 or a tad more. So if you are shooting really light loads or light loads in the cold the extra bit the primer adds might help as you have seen in a few of these replies. 

 

I played that game for a while using light loads and Fed 100's in the spring summer and fall and 200 Mag primers in the winter. It worked but it was counterproductive IMHO. Now I just use enough powder and it's much easier, safer and you shoot just as well........probably even better. 

 

We refer to that as the principle of KISS. ;)

OLG 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.