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Slowhand Bob, 24229

BP harmful?

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I just read a post in which someone remarked that his doctor told him that BP smoke might be harmful for his preexisting lung disease.  I have been trying to work out some way to make shooting a few more matches possible BUT the plan was for one of the Frontiersman categories.  Is this something that any of the other BP shooters might have run across?  I was recently told by one of the local gun ranges that I can not shoot there any longer while using bottled oxygen.  I see my local Pulmonologist again in about a month, guess I need to do some questioning!    

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3 minutes ago, Slowhand Bob, 24229 said:

I just read a post in which someone remarked that his doctor told him that BP smoke might be harmful for his preexisting lung disease. 

Sounds like it's time change doctors!!

 

C.S.

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anything, but pure air, might be harmful to preexisting lung disease.

That being said, get a second opinion on anything medical. They call it Practicing medicine for a reason.

 

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24 minutes ago, Slowhand Bob, 24229 said:

I was recently told by one of the local gun ranges that I can not shoot there any longer while using bottled oxygen.

 

This is, generally, completely idiotic.    Oxygen enables combustion, but it's not explosive.   I'd avoid that range just for being so dumb. 

Sorry to hear they decided to act before thinking.

 

Good luck, GJ

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It is harmful.

 

My face aches from smiling so much after shooting a match. 

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The indoor range has never allowed BP but I was surprised that they would say something about modern pistols and rifles but do not know for sure whether it might be an insurance issue???   I should be seeing my doctor before the new virus is clear me to mix company anyway.  One of my favorite 44 cap and ball guns is a gonna need to go to a smith and I will have to figure a way to negotiate oxygen tanks at a cowboy match also.  Perhaps a bit much to bite off anyway?

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While oxygen is not considered flammable it will accelerate a fire.  That means your clothing etc.  While I doubt the chances are low for BP or smokeless more likely insurance reasons.  

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Regarding the gun range that won't let you shoot while using an oxygen bottle, you may have a valid discrimination complaint under the ADA.  You may have a state office where you can file a complaint.  I don't see how your tank presents a hazard.  If you were shooting at it that would be another matter.

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Can you use one of thoes machines that generate oxygen with a battery pack?

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Jack Rabbit Joe a regular on here uses an oxygen bottle at matches.  While it isn't as easy as not having one it is certainly doable.  Contact Joe and ask him some questions he's a hell of a nice guy and I'm sure would answer questions about the O2.

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I don't seen any hazard in shooting black powder - other than social distancing. 

 

I do believe the warning on the BlackMZ bottle that says could cause low blood pressure.   Often the smoke blows back in my face and I inhale it.  I've checked my blood pressure after a match and it's been below 80/120 and that's really low for me.  I have experienced lower blood pressure symptoms after loading ammo.  Son says it's probably the glycerin.

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3 hours ago, Slowhand Bob, 24229 said:

The indoor range has never allowed BP but I was surprised that they would say something about modern pistols and rifles but do not know for sure whether it might be an insurance issue???   I should be seeing my doctor before the new virus is clear me to mix company anyway.  One of my favorite 44 cap and ball guns is a gonna need to go to a smith and I will have to figure a way to negotiate oxygen tanks at a cowboy match also.  Perhaps a bit much to bite off anyway?

Most indoor ranges prohibit black powder because the resultant smoke sets off the alarm systems.

 

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Posted (edited)

“ I was recently told by one of the local gun ranges that I can not shoot there any longer while using bottled oxygen.”


More likely the wanna-be range-wizard has his head so far up his butt that he can see daylight! 

 

Cat Brules

Edited by Cat Brules
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3 hours ago, Slowhand Bob, 24229 said:

The indoor range has never allowed BP but I was surprised that they would say something about modern pistols and rifles but do not know for sure whether it might be an insurance issue???   I should be seeing my doctor before the new virus is clear me to mix company anyway.  One of my favorite 44 cap and ball guns is a gonna need to go to a smith and I will have to figure a way to negotiate oxygen tanks at a cowboy match also.  Perhaps a bit much to bite off anyway?

 I believe the reason indoor is that the salt (nitrite) and sulfur cause rust on beams, just as it does to the gun if one does not clean it soon after shooting.

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5 minutes ago, Lazy Eeyour said:

 I believe the reason indoor is that the salt (nitrite) and sulfur cause rust on beams, just as it does to the gun if one does not clean it soon after shooting.

 

I could be wrong but, I don't think BP rusts guns. I don't think it ever has. I think the mercury in the old primers was the real culprit and then in more modern times Pyrodex held the torch to carry on the march of the "BP haters". I poured my last 2 bottles of Pyrodex on my lawn hoping it would at least be a good fertilizer or pest repellent. I shot 1 match a month when I was still shooting SASS, and I once went 3 matches  without cleaning them just to see what would happen. They finally started to bind a little during the 4th match. After a shot of Ballistol all was well and I finished the match without any problems. I cleaned the guns when I got home and guess what... NO RUST WHAT SO EVER!! I was using Goex2Fg, SPG and Winchester WLP's.

 

C.S.  

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If you read the MSDS sheets on BP and APP or MZ you will find the BP smoke is not really hazardous. The same is not true for APP or MZ,  it is hazardous and you should not breath the smoke and you should have ventilation when you are loading using APP or MZ.

kR

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Warden Callaway said:

Son says it's probably the glycerin.

 

He's thinking of nitroglycerin, which dilates blood vessels, lowering blood pressure and even causing headaches.   Although there is nitroglycerin in double-base smokeless powders, there is none in BlackMZ/APP (or real black powder).

 

What is in BlackMZ is potassium nitrate (about 50%) and potassium perchlorate (about 30%).   The nitrate will do just about the same thing to blood vessels as nitroglycerin.   That's what can lower your BP.    The perchlorate - has no known adverse health effects.

 

Neither BP nor Black MZ are major health hazards unburned.   Burned, there's some fouling that is mostly sodium or potassium carbonates, plus a little particulate carbon.  

 

There's also some sulfur dioxide from the sulfur part of black powder.  That will be an irritant to lungs.  Sufficiently concentrated, it could cause acidic burns to airways.   Shooters will not get to that level.  BP also has a large amount of potassium nitrate.   But that burns up to create fouling, just as it does in Black MZ

 

None of these are dangerous to otherwise healthy shooters, IMHO.   Don't sprinkle these powders on your cereal, though.  The nitrates will be more concentrated than in the worst old-fashioned hot dog or lunch meat.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708
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NCD, by the time the doctors figured out the problem it was beyond what the personal portable machines could supply.  I remember shooting with an older guy back in the "90s who carried the "e" bottles in a single cart.  Not the fastest way to go but he extended his shooting by at least another year or so,,, uuuh he was also relying heavily on a wheel chair and golf cart.

Kid, oh me, I am partial to APP (c&b + Cart.) and Triple Seven for shotgun.  My thought is that the substitutes would be more akin to smokeless than actual bp, which is I thought was classified as an explosive.  Not sure how the dynamics work on this but but I have gotten the impression that certain materials such as oil might be able to combust when in contact with oxygen???  All of my tanks and generators  came with the warnings not to get oil on the valve threads where oxygen connects.     

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Pretty much any particulate can be damaging to your lungs when inhaled, plain old dust and dirt wrecks many lungs- it’s your own bodies inflammatory response in many cases.  Now risk assessment to the individual is an individual decision, I’d imagine pretty much everyone medical(there’s always that 1 outta 5 dentist that doesn’t recommend toothpaste though ;)) will advise to limit irritants to already damaged lungs, you just have to decide what that limiting looks like.  For me, nice open air with a bit of a cross breeze doing some shooting which I love would probably be my personal choice.

 

That said, don’t take medical advice from the internet or some rando like myself ;)

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Posted (edited)

     I'm a Respiratory Therapist in real life and have worked for oxygen company's in the past and have been working in outpatient services for the last 20 yrs evaluating patients for oxygen prescriptions. You bet there's an increased risk shooting with oxygen on. That rifle chamber is right up by your face and Mr Slowhand ya look like you have a full beard. That beard holds oxygen molecules. Also think of all the flammable solvents we use to clean guns combined with an oxygen enriched environment. Out of my 600 oxygen patients we usually manage to have 3-4 fires a year no matter how much we educate. Vast majority are from smokers. But also have had fires from candles, cooking, space heater, manifold on a Harley and 2 from guys using grinders. My patients that are shooters I tell them to take it off, shoot for a few minutes then put it back on. Also to remove it if using cleaning solvents that are flammable. 

 

    Being a Respiratory Therapist I have developed Reactive Airway Disease ( from the cloud of Albuterol that we are in everyday). Real BP smoke bothers me, start coughing, so does Ballistol, bleach and other strong cleaners. I've shot APP myself and it didn't do anything to me. 

Edited by Chili Pepper Kid, SASS #60463
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3 hours ago, Nickel City Dude said:

Can you use one of thoes machines that generate oxygen with a battery pack?

Yes.

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Folks,  some anecdotal input:

 

I have an early  onset of COPD like most in my generation who smoked, blew airguns at Brake repairs and otherwise did stupid things around dirty air,

 

I had a real serious conversation with the lung guy,( as did my wife!!!!)about shooting BP with a lung deficiency. BTW, this  Dr is  a SHOOTER HIMSELF.

 

Now here in the Phoenix area there is a prevailing wind from the SW, and I live quite a way West of downtown, as do the two ranges where we shoot.

 

The Dr's explanation was that a day on the range with BP was about 10x healthier that two sets of tennis in Scotttsdale!!

Yes, Scottsdale is in the way East end of the smog filled valley.

 

So,  use that s you may, but my wife and I still greatly enjoy our shooting with BP>

 

Ol'  #4

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Posted (edited)

Deleted.

Edited by Yul Lose
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24 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

I’m the one that brought it up on the other post. My doctor has been treating me for about 28 years except about 18 months when I was in a disastrous HMO and knows all about my lungs. I’ll listen to him and stay with smokeless. Whenever someone on my posse is using BP or subs I have a real challenge breathing and have to hook up the oxygen as soon as I get home. Ridicule me if you want but that’s the facts.

 

Do what you gotta to keep shooting.

 

I know a good pard from GA with COPD that can't shoot real BP for the same reason. He does fine shooting a sub though. I try to shoot after him if we're on the same posse.

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Slowhand Bob- Stage 4 emphysema here,still not dragging the bottle though-only at night. (stubbornness)   I shoot my sxs with substitute..and it chokes me out sometimes....kills my times because Im holdng my breath! But I wanna-so-you know...
I find I do have to walk away and duck and dodge while doing posse duties when the BP guys go all out....but I aint gonna tell them they can't because of me. 

I doubt I could shoot all BP myself at this point...Id be holding my breath to long.......I'm huffin and puffin like crazy during tear down and putting things up...and I do feel crappy the next day after a shoot. 
Told my pulmonologist all this...she said "well at least your getting cardio in running away from the smoke.."  she knows I prefer quality over quantity. She also told me ANY smoke is a killer...even my burning brush in the yard.
There will come a point -where I dont use BP in the sxs anymore...and stay even further away when the other guys do their thing...

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For the guys that have lung and breathing isssues;

 

Why don't you get some of the flat particulate masks to wear while shooting and cover it with a bandanna like the outlaws in the old west?

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11 hours ago, Kid Rich said:

If you read the MSDS sheets on BP and APP or MZ you will find the BP smoke is not really hazardous. The same is not true for APP or MZ,  it is hazardous and you should not breath the smoke and you should have ventilation when you are loading using APP or MZ.

kR

Read the MSDS sheets on both BP and APP or MZ.

Then you won't have am internet "opinion" you will have published facts about what you are using or wanting to use.

kR

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1 hour ago, Kid Rich said:

Read the MSDS sheets on both BP and APP or MZ.

Then you won't have am internet "opinion" you will have published facts about what you are using or wanting to use.

kR

This is still good advice, but perhaps you're actually over thinking it a little bit.  It's a bit like looking at the MSDS for peanut butter for example; safest thing ever on the MSDS- but for some folks it's a game changer: MSDS doesn't cover context nor could it.  

 

The Goex MSDS also just shows in that little line 8-18% charcoal and trace of graphite.  This alone can present issues for certain lungs.  The MSDS further does go on about inhalation risks-- but pretty sure they are talking about the actual product, not the products of combustion.  But again, doesn't really matter and it's getting down in the weeds for no reason.  For people with COPD or other interstitial lung disorders there will be issue with ANY product of combustion, or other fine particulate.  So just because whiz-bang chemistry 1 says it's bad ju-ju and pop-snazzle chemistry 2 says its chemically safer can very well be meaningless.  Facts, but not enough context or supporting facts to make any good conclusion.  So to straight up appeal to the MSDS (twice) and call it a day perhaps might not be the best solution; but is still a good idea and advice.

 

Again, as folks have said it all comes down to individual risk assessments.  Smoke and dust is a risk.  Lead is a risk.  Machines/tools are a risk.  etc.  How all that and more gets added and stacked, then mitigated is on the pard.

 

 

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I know it is biodegradable. 

According to more than a few sources has been used as a spice for consumables.

Has been added to whiskey.

"SMELLS GOOD IN THE MORNING".

Makes you smile.

Encourages bragging when having coffee or adult beverages.

Has the ability to turn a bad day into a great day, even if it raining.

Cures arthritis, especially if used as a double duelist.

Gives you the incentive to get up in the morning to go to the range, even if you go alone.

Encourage artistic urges to make half your gear at twice the normal cost.

A life without black powder is a life lived without life.

 

Just a few humble thoughts. Enjoy it if you still can.

 

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Howdy

 

I can tell you that if I inhale some BP smoke from my pistols at a match I usually wind up coughing a bit, and I think I still have pretty good lungs. (knock on wood).

 

Beyond that it does not bother me.

 

Yup, I would be real careful with 'extra' oxygen near any flame. It does not burn itself but it sure makes fires more intense.

 

14 hours ago, Carolina Sorillo said:

I could be wrong but, I don't think BP rusts guns. I don't think it ever has. I think the mercury in the old primers was the real culprit and then in more modern times Pyrodex held the torch to carry on the march of the "BP haters".

 

Not quite.

 

Yes, Black Powder fouling is corrosive, but nowhere near as much as many shooters think. Yes, the corrosive priming compound in old corrosive primers did make the corrosion from BP fouling worse, and we do not use corrosive primers any more. Yes, I often go a long time before cleaning a revolver fired with Black Powder, much longer than most recommend, with no ill effects. But the bottom line is Black Powder fouling all by itself is corrosive. Just not as bad as most seem to think.

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OH Lord, and now we are almost into April and my old outboard motor exhaust is even worse yet!  I get to spend almost a full day with my pulmonologist on the 21st doing tests to check progression so perhaps I'll find out more then.  The wife wants me to sell everything and stay home in the recliner with her AND I do not like reruns on the Halmark channel!

    

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A long time shooter that belonged to my club in NJ was told to stop shooting as the smoke was harmful to his lungs, I believe.  He sold everything. 

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If I remember correctly the MSDS sheet on Black MZ specifically recommends adequate ventilation when LOADING MZ.  I know the dust has a very distinct odor which I don't find to be pleasant. I've only loaded somewhere in the neighborhood of 40 lbs of it this year so I am by no means an expert on it. Probably loaded about the same amount of BP in the same time frame. I do know in my other life (occupation) I had chemical application licenses and learned early on to pay attention to things like MSDS sheets and warning labels on products that I used. In many cases they are a good starting place but not the final answer. Without a proper starting place or the correct information to start with you will have a much more difficult time arriving at a harmonious outcome.

 kR

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7 hours ago, Slowhand Bob, 24229 said:

OH Lord, and now we are almost into April and my old outboard motor exhaust is even worse yet!  I get to spend almost a full day with my pulmonologist on the 21st doing tests to check progression so perhaps I'll find out more then.  The wife wants me to sell everything and stay home in the recliner with her AND I do not like reruns on the Halmark channel!

    

 

Have you been thru a Pulmonary Rehab program? I would highly recommend it.

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