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Nimble Fingers SASS# 25439

First John Wayne Movie with. JW 92 loop

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So I just finished Shepherd of the Hills and I believe it was the first movie with his style large loop on the Winchester 92 he was carrying. He had a “D” lever in Stagecoach, but I am thinking Shepherd of the Hills was the next one for him to use a rifle and it having a large loop in his style. And I am sure it has been asked before, who decided the shape?  Thanks. 

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A couple of stories say it was developed by Yakima Canutt for the Stagecoach movie as John Ford wanted to have Wayne's character do something flashy with the rifle along the lines of spinning a pistol.  The original rifle had a longer barrel than the ones later on in JW's movies.  Chuck Connors had long arms so it was easy for him the spin a rifle with a longer barrel.

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Thanks but the one in Stagecoach is a different shape, similar to both the one Robert Mitchum used in El Dorado and Chuck Conners in the Rifleman, a “D” style lever. The one I saw in Shepherd of the Hills is similar to the ones on my JW 94 & 92’s. So maybe you are correct and Yakima Canutt did design either one or both, don’t know but I wanted to know when was the first movie that JW used the one that is tied to him. 

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I think you’ve got that backwards. The stagecoach one was round and the D shape he used in most movies

image.jpeg.9cfccad37a2af155c43b9d4e34e56b47.jpeg

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El Hombre, I have seen the style lever you are showing and the lever used on the Rifleman’s 92 as being referred to as a “D” lever. But I can be schooled. I certainly would not call the levers on either my JW 94 or 92 as looking like a “D”, but that is me. Still unanswered is my original question of what was the first movie where John Wayne appeared with the style lever he used in most of his movies that is different then the rifle shown in El Hombre’s post?  

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Great question Nimble. I don’t know which movie was the first. I’m curious now as much as you are. 
 

as for the D shape, I suppose it’s a matter of terminology. I very well could (and probably am) wrong. For some reason I thought the later ones were the D and the stagecoach one was a circle. To me, it looks like a D. Here’s mine 
 

38A79C34-364F-474F-9E45-D08BD0FA28A4.thumb.jpeg.2ce31249d177b7fe62fe24974c312022.jpeg

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Just today, I saw the two styles advertised as full and 3/4 design

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I think the lever loop on the Rifleman's rifle changed at some point in the shows run, if wikipedia is correct. 

roundloop.jpg.487c30b9097266f53ed96b696044131b.jpgdLoop.png.9616476f6223c61269b9a529437774cf.png

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It's amazing they had those in 1865!:lol:

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On 3/23/2020 at 12:56 PM, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

Great question Nimble. I don’t know which movie was the first. I’m curious now as much as you are. 
 

as for the D shape, I suppose it’s a matter of terminology. I very well could (and probably am) wrong. For some reason I thought the later ones were the D and the stagecoach one was a circle. To me, it looks like a D. Here’s mine 
 

38A79C34-364F-474F-9E45-D08BD0FA28A4.thumb.jpeg.2ce31249d177b7fe62fe24974c312022.jpeg

Well it is probably my Catholic grade school handwriting class that influences me as to which is the “D”!  But hopefully we can enjoy this “insanity” instead what is happening in the world. Again had I not seen that Shepherd of the Hills was in 1941 and I am thinking that Stagecoach I think was in 1939, it made me wonder what movie was first. And then here’s another. Did Robert Mitchum have Johnny Crawford “borrow” Chuck Connor’s Rifle for him to carry in El Dorado?

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Just thought I would add to this. Here is a picture  of his gun used in Big Jake & El Dorado . The second is his gun from True Grit. I have close ups if it helps. Don't have many of the early guns 

IMG_4623 JW92 used in Big Jake & El Darado.JPG

IMG_4631 JW True Grit holding.JPG

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1 hour ago, Stony Lane said:

Just thought I would add to this. Here is a picture  of his gun used in Big Jake & El Dorado . The second is his gun from True Grit. I have close ups if it helps. Don't have many of the early guns 

IMG_4623 JW92 used in Big Jake & El Darado.JPG

IMG_4631 JW True Grit holding.JPG

I’d be smiling too if I could hold two different rifles that the Duke handled!

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Here are pictures of me shooting the Dukes famous pistols. I also shot  the gun from Winchester 73 , The rifleman, Streets of Larado and many others. I have lots of pictures if interested.

This was at the Texican Rangers place in 2017. This was my anniversary present form my wife.

By the way if any of you guys wish to fight over this beautiful lady, pack a lunch cause you will be here a while! 

IMG_4562 Shooting JW 45 CROPPED.jpg

IMG_4507 JW 44-40s.JPG

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that would have been fun , holding the iconic and shooting them too , lucky man 

my wife did surprise me with a trip to the cody museum once , i think im lucky too , il keep her 

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That is on my bucket list to visit.  

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Posted (edited)

Stage Coach was filmed in 1939

 

Shepherd of the Hills  was filmed in 1941

 

 

Those supposed "JW" six guns in the thread?  Sure look like modern Cimarron Arms  replicas to me.

Edited by levi littleton

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10 hours ago, levi littleton said:

Stage coach was 1939.

 

Shepherd of the Hills  1941

 

 

Those supposed "JW" six guns in the thread?  Sure look like modern Cimarron Arms  replicas to me.

I was kind of wondering that myself. Especially the finger groove 44-40. The real John Wayne Colt with finger grooves did start life as a 44-40, but was converted to 45 by Hollywood to shoot blanks. 

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Posted (edited)

IMG_4507 JW 44-40s.JPG

 

Cimarron's replicas by the look of the  grips,  grip screws and finger grooves.   The finish tells me more on the guns that are easily visible in the photo.  I'd have guessed Uberti's work for Cimarron.     Wayne's "favorite" gun had a Bisley trigger guard  and frame.   FWIW 44-40 and 45s will both shoot 5 in 1 blanks.  No need to convert anything.   

Edited by levi littleton

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55 minutes ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

I was kind of wondering that myself. Especially the finger groove 44-40. The real John Wayne Colt with finger grooves did start life as a 44-40, but was converted to 45 by Hollywood to shoot blanks. 

The Bottom one is a 45. There were 5 guns of this style used in the movies.  These are the "working" guns used in most shooting scenes where the guns are shot and dropped. Also most of the guns actually shot in westerns were either made in or converted to 44-40 to shoot the so called 5 in 1 ammo used in movies and make logistic easier . All these guns are owned by Hollywood Guns & Props and the owner of the company has many folders of receipts from the movies these guns were rented to for use. Interestingly,at least to me, of the 150 or so movie guns the were at this shoot the only ones that actually shot only blanks were the "Greener" double barrel shot gun from Big Jake and the Model 29 S&W used by Eastwood in the Dirty Harry movies.  And no these are not the first gun JW used which was the one that started the style. It was a Bisley Colt that someone at some time before he started using it had changed to a standard SAA grip frame.  Yes these look very much like the Cimarron replicas. I think that what Mike Harvey had in mind.

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Posted (edited)
Quote

Hollywood Guns & Props and the owner of the company has many folders of receipts from the movies these guns were rented to for use. …..and  the Model 29 S&W used by Eastwood in the Dirty Harry movies.

 

No doubt it would be fun to shoot all those guns.  The original Wayne guns (and no question there were several) was a 38/40, which also uses a 5 in 1 blank.    5 in 1 blanks can be fired in a 38-40, 44-40, 45 Colt, 44 Special and 44 Magnum.    Dirty Harry's  Model 29?  Actually was a Model 57 in 41 Magnum not 44.  A Model 57 will not take a 5 in one blank...a 44 magnum will.

 

With all due respect, I am sure they were really fun guns to see and shoot,  but I'd want to see those receipts, and make a close inspection of the guns before buying the story.   

Edited by levi littleton
editing out my dumb

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I will respect your opinion even though I disagree.  Other than as movie props, this was the first time Mr. Frisch had taken these guns out of California for a charity shoot. It was a fund raiser for the Former Texas Ranger Foundation.  We saw the add in Gun & Ammo for it in 2017. If you ever get a chance try it. Its a lot of fun and he will be more than happy to show you all the authentication papers. Good shooting and stay safe. 

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Here’s a lot if information 

 

Colt’s records indicate that serial no. 309795 left the factory as a Bisley Model not in .44-40 but in .45 Colt. Instead of originally being made with a 4 ¾" barrel, it came from Colt with a 5 1/2" barrel. Thus, we have a Colt Bisley in .45 Colt with a 5 ½" barrel that, sometime, somewhere, was converted to a .44-40 with a 4 ¾" barrel. Colt has no record of the gun coming back to the factory for these modifications. Colt's also reported that the finish was blue with no information on the grips. It was one gun of a shipment of one sent to a John E. Dougty on August 7, 1909. Unfortunately no address for John E. Doughty, or other information was recorded.

 

http://www.jcs-group.com/johnwayne/american/trademark.html

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On 3/21/2020 at 7:08 PM, Nimble Fingers SASS# 25439 said:

So I just finished Shepherd of the Hills and I believe it was the first movie with his style large loop on the Winchester 92 he was carrying. He had a “D” lever in Stagecoach, but I am thinking Shepherd of the Hills was the next one for him to use a rifle and it having a large loop in his style. And I am sure it has been asked before, who decided the shape?  Thanks. 

Fingers,

I'm sorry if I got your thread off track. Back to your original question above. I have tons of research material on John Wayne as his life and career have been my hobby for many years. While going through it, the best information  I found on your question is from, believe it or not, a site devoted to Chuck Conners. After going over  other sources I believe this to be pretty accurate. I have copied it below. It starts off referring to the gun in Stage Coach which was, as mentioned above, released in 1939. This is a very interesting subject and if I find new info I will let you know. I can't find anything showing the difference in the 1939 Stage Coach rifle and the 1941 Shepherd of the Hills gun but there very well may be. Thanks for giving me a project. 

*As a life long John Wayne fan and avid shooter,I've been doing quite a bit of research on "The Duke's Winchesters"....the large loop versions. The original two 1892 large loops were the brainchild of Yakama Kanut and John Wayne. It sounds like there were two modified for the film. Then they appear in several other films in the 1940s. If we skip up to the 1950s we see a model 1892 with a standard 20 inch barrel with the more traditional egg shaped large loop used in Hondo and Rio Bravo. Go ahead to 1969 and in True Grit the Duke uses a Trapper Model 1892 throughout most of the film.
However, if you look close in the scene where they attack Ned Peppers cabin....the 20 inch version shows up briefly....but that's the only scene the standard size model appears. When Cogburn confronts Ned in the end...he snaps around the Trapper (which can be seen in the NRA Museum Book in full color). The Trapper shows up again in Rooster Cogburn, Big Jake and the Shootist. The full size version shows up in El Dorado with Robert Mitchum using a standard size Rifleman loop compared to John Wayne's standard large loop. So, he actually had a Trapper version....standard 20 inch version and the original Stagecoach version.

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4 minutes ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

Here’s a lot if information 

 

Colt’s records indicate that serial no. 309795 left the factory as a Bisley Model not in .44-40 but in .45 Colt. Instead of originally being made with a 4 ¾" barrel, it came from Colt with a 5 1/2" barrel. Thus, we have a Colt Bisley in .45 Colt with a 5 ½" barrel that, sometime, somewhere, was converted to a .44-40 with a 4 ¾" barrel. Colt has no record of the gun coming back to the factory for these modifications. Colt's also reported that the finish was blue with no information on the grips. It was one gun of a shipment of one sent to a John E. Dougty on August 7, 1909. Unfortunately no address for John E. Doughty, or other information was recorded.

 

http://www.jcs-group.com/johnwayne/american/trademark.html

That's one I would really like to touch!

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Posted (edited)

Stony, my apologies.  On closer inspection the two handguns I was looking at in your photo may well be Colts.    JW's early movie guns were no question 1st Gen guns.    Only the guns in the Shootist (his last movie) were anything else and they were Great Westerns.    Both guns in your photo have three serial numbers stamped on them.  On the frame, back strap (tape covers the one gun)  and trigger guard...so likely both are 1st Gen Guns.   The lower gun has a  barrel marked as a Colt FSS.  You mention is was changed to a 45?  Barrel says 44-40.

 

Serial numbers on both and the barrel on the one says Colt.   No doubt about that.  They clearly are not Cimarron guns.

 

And I am not nearly as smart as I think I am.  My apologies again.

Edited by levi littleton
a deserved apology
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12 minutes ago, levi littleton said:

Stony, my apologies.  On closer inspection the two handguns I was looking at in your photo may well be Colts.    JW's early movie guns were no question 1st Gen guns.    Only the guns in the Shootist (his last movie) were anything else and they were Great Westerns.    Both guns in your photo have three serial numbers stamped on them.  On the frame, back strap (tape covers the one gun)  and trigger guard...so likely both are 1st Gen Guns.   The lower gun has a  barrel marked as a Colt FSS.  You mention is was changed to a 45?  Barrel says 44-40.

 

Serial numbers on both and the barrel on the one says Colt.   No doubt about that.  They clearly are not Cimarron guns.

 

And I am not nearly as smart as I think I am.  My apologies again.

No problem, this is a great discussion and as I mentioned to Fingers it made me look into one of my favorite subjects. Best to you.

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On 3/23/2020 at 3:01 PM, Rooster Cognizant said:

I think the lever loop on the Rifleman's rifle changed at some point in the shows run, if wikipedia is correct. 

roundloop.jpg.487c30b9097266f53ed96b696044131b.jpgdLoop.png.9616476f6223c61269b9a529437774cf.png

 

According to Mo hunt there were 5 rifles, of which three rifles were use on set, 2 Winchesters and an El Trigre.

 

 

The later Win of the three did get a more "D" shaped.

The last two were made by Mo as personal guns for Conners. As you can see, they had the "D" type lever. 

849335053_Chuckconners2.jpg.14db655b3ceaf54de4edfebf16785932.jpg

 

Conner's was a big guy so he could easily twirl two 20" guns.

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