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Question about BP


Sedalia Dave

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How do the size of the grains for 1.5F BP compare to the size of the grains of 3F APP or Black MZ? Want to see if my current setup can handle 1.5F.

I know 3F BP is really fine compared to 3F APP but I don't have access to any 1.5F BP to test out.

 

Thinking about loading some 44-40 with a full case of 1.5F.  A full case of 3F is too hot for the really close target distances that some clubs are using. 

 

I know all about filler and have no interest in using it if I can find an alternative.

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Here is a chart. There will be some variation brand to brand, real BP to sub. But this gives you a ball park on Goex.

 

http://firearmshistory.blogspot.com/2016/07/black-powder-iv-powder-grain-sizes.html

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The size of the grain is universal throughout the BP industry. 1.5F Goex, is the same as 1.5F APP etc.

I suggest, if the load is too hot, reduce the powder and add filler. 1.5F is real close to cannon and won't burn properly in a handgun.

Use the SASS Smoke Factor load for your rounds. 1cc 2F, you can use 3F and get the same, or more, smoke, then top off with filler, some use cornmeal, others grits. seat your pill and shoot.

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I have been shooting the 44-40 since 1976 . Love the cartridge.

I use Goex 3F. I use Corn Meal to fill up the case. Then I put a wad on top of the corn meal. Then seat the Bullet.

I make wads out of Primer Boxes. Cereal Boxes. Political flyers I receive in the mail .

I started using the wads after I pulled a bullet. and some of the Corn Meal was sticking to the base of the Bullet.

Using a wad I don't have that problem.

 

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Here you go APP is not the same size as Holy black and God bless you if you have the patience to run it through a powder measure.

 

 

 

Powder comparison.jpg

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App or MZ is much larger in size compared to BP. We use both. U will have no problem using 1.5 BP in 44/40. To me it appears that Goex OE is actually smaller in size than the other BP's. U will see a major difference between 1.5 and 3f in BP. I have a pair of Walkers and a full load of 2f will drop the loading lever. A full load of 1.5f will not.

kR

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I don't know if this will help, but, used in conjunction with Cholla Bob's image above, this might help you determine how much you are putting in your cases.

--Dawg

 

Lee Dippers & Black Powder.pdf

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Thank you all so much.  Looks like 1.5Fg will be slightly smaller than 3F APP.

 

I have no issues with 3F APP as long as keep the powder measure and expander die clean. For me that means washing in soap and water after every pound of powder loaded.

 

Now to find someone that wants to split a shipmant of BP.

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29 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Why not go with real BP?

Give Goex Old 'E' 2F a go.

It burns like 3F.

My Shiloh's love it.

OLG 

 

I am going with real BP just want to use a coarser grade and avoid using fillers.  Back when I first started shooting FCD I shot with really nice pard at club that is a bit of a drive for me. He gave me a lot of pointers and one was using 1.5Fg powder in cases like 45 colt and 44 WCF to reduce the velocity without having to use fillers. I have a Henry in 44 WCF that I have to start loading BP cartridges for. The dies and tool head arrived today.

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1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

The finer granulation burns far cleaner in pistol caliber cartridges. 

Give 'E' 2F a go. It meters very well.

OLG 

This. Plus, you won’t notice any difference in recoil, especially with a Henry. 2f is my go-to BP granulation from .38 to .45 cal and shotgun. Keeps purchasing  simple. 

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I have 2 standbys for BP - https://powderinc.com/ and https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/3501 in that order.  Sometimes I do find some locally and get it.  As OLG stated 'E' 2F is my 1st choice - will use others except Pyrodex, it is to gummy and dirty for me.

 

Charlie

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5 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Powder Inc is the master distributor for Goex.

OLG 

 

and they always have what you need.....:rolleyes:

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3 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

 

I have ordered all of my BP from'em for years with no issues.

Folks get Powder Inc and Powder Valley Inc mixed up.

OLG 

2 thumbs up.jpg

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22 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

This. Plus, you won’t notice any difference in recoil, especially with a Henry. 2f is my go-to BP granulation from .38 to .45 cal and shotgun. Keeps purchasing  simple. 

 

Not worried about recoil even in my pistols. I shoot for maximum fun. I am currently working my way through some commercially loaded 44 WCF BP rounds that I bought from a retired shooter. They are pretty hot and everyone knows when I pull the trigger because they go BOOM! with authority. And there is no question if I hit the target or not. Even dead targets make a loud thunk. 

First and only SASS match I shot with it, I dented a couple of mild steel targets on the third stage. After that I put it away and finished the match with my backup rifle.

 

Chronographed them and they are running right around 1275 fps out of my Henry.

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Not knowing anything about how those cartridges were loaded leads to a lot of questions. 

 

My 44.40 rifle loads are with 2f BP under a 200 gr big lube bullet (pure lead) and no fillers don’t approach the performance of yours. 
 

Recommend you fill the case with 2f w/o fillers so you get 1/16-1/8” compression with BP. Please let us know your results. 

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49 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

Not knowing anything about how those cartridges were loaded leads to a lot of questions. 

 

My 44.40 rifle loads are with 2f BP under a 200 gr big lube bullet (pure lead) and no fillers don’t approach the performance of yours. 
 

Recommend you fill the case with 2f w/o fillers so you get 1/16-1/8” compression with BP. Please let us know your results. 

 

X2:excl:

OLG 

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Granual sizes are determined by screen size it fits through. The number is the amount of holes per square inch of screen. There are variances between companies but they should be fairly close. Unless the substitute is comparing it by performance instead of actual size. I have no real experience with substitutes. Hope this chart helps in some way.

T.F. Jack

Screenshot_20190130-113648.png

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5 hours ago, Turkey Flats Jack said:

Granual sizes are determined by screen size it fits through. The number is the amount of holes per square inch of screen. There are variances between companies but they should be fairly close. Unless the substitute is comparing it by performance instead of actual size. I have no real experience with substitutes. Hope this chart helps in some way.

T.F. Jack

 

 

APP uses performance rather than granual size.

Based on the info others have posted above, APP's 3F powder performs the same as real BP FFFg but the granual size is closer to 1.5Fg in real BP. APP's 2F is more like canon grade in size.

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9 hours ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

Not knowing anything about how those cartridges were loaded leads to a lot of questions. 

 

My 44.40 rifle loads are with 2f BP under a 200 gr big lube bullet (pure lead) and no fillers don’t approach the performance of yours. 
 

Recommend you fill the case with 2f w/o fillers so you get 1/16-1/8” compression with BP. Please let us know your results. 

 

I have no idea what powder they are loaded with. According to the label on the ammo can they are 10X brand and they are at least 10 to 15 years old. My guess is that they are loaded with a full case of powder that is equivalent to a good 3f grade of real BP. In total there are about 500 rounds.

 

I know the shooter I purchased them from and trust his word. He was not a reloader and all the ammo he ever shot was either factory or came from a licensed commercial ammo loader. He never bought ammo from a gun show.

I bought a bunch of Black Dawg Cartridge Co BP ammo in , 38 Special, 357 Mag, and 12 ga. I know that the majority of the smokeless cowboy ammo he had was loaded either by Georgia Arms or Maine Cartridge Co.  

 

Because the rounds are so hot I am only going to use them for NCOWS matches. The rifle targets are far enough away that they will not damage the targets and splatter will not be a problem.

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Goex OE is a really good powder, however in tests done when it first came out it is hotter than some of the normal BP's. It is comparable to Swiss although a little hotter. For my cowboy loads I use Schutzen 2f unless I am at a nite shoot then I use their Harzer grade. I like Schutzen better than Goex, just a personnel  preference.

kR

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57 minutes ago, Kid Rich said:

I like Schutzen better than Goex, just a personnel  preference.

kR

 

Me too, really hate that Grafs brand switched from Scutzen to Goex.

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I have shot BP for many years and loved DuPont and still do.  But the plant blowing up stopped that.  For SASS I use Goex FFFg.  I shoot .44-40 except for an ASM Scholfield in .45 Colt and a Marlin in .45 Colt, first two SASS guns.  For my rifles .45 or .44 WCF I use a full case with a 1/16" compression and a fibber wad. For pistols with the 7 ½ barrels same as rifle, shorter barrels get 20 gr FFFg with grits and fibber wad.  Have never seen damage to targets with those loads.  Using pickuped steel, Swiss will put divots in some targets along with 777.   

 

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3 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

I have no idea what powder they are loaded with. According to the label on the ammo can they are 10X brand and they are at least 10 to 15 years old. My guess is that they are loaded with a full case of powder that is equivalent to a good 3f grade of real BP. In total there are about 500 rounds

10X ammo is loaded with 777 so it's going to be stout with a full case load.

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On 3/21/2020 at 4:35 PM, Sedalia Dave said:

 

I am going with real BP just want to use a coarser grade and avoid using fillers.  Back when I first started shooting FCD I shot with really nice pard at club that is a bit of a drive for me. He gave me a lot of pointers and one was using 1.5Fg powder in cases like 45 colt and 44 WCF to reduce the velocity without having to use fillers. I have a Henry in 44 WCF that I have to start loading BP cartridges for. The dies and tool head arrived today.

When I am asked what filler I use, my response is "FFFg"...…. I am a Warthog.....lol

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For the last year I have been loading my daughters and my 44-40 with full cases of fg, works fine in my Dillon powder measure. She likes the extra sparks! Doesn't seem to run any dirtier with 44-40, 45 Colt might be different.

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1 hour ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said:

For the last year I have been loading my daughters and my 44-40 with full cases of fg, works fine in my Dillon powder measure. She likes the extra sparks! Doesn't seem to run any dirtier with 44-40, 45 Colt might be different.

 

Plz, tell us about bullet lube and what else you do for BP use in your gunz.

OLG 

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1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

 

Plz, tell us about bullet lube and what else you do for BP use in your gunz.

OLG 

its a trap.....

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I cast my own bullets, make my own lube, load my own ammo and have as much fun as possible! I load for 4 shooters so I try and keep it all simple.

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