Are these shoes legal?

[Doc Shapiro]

4 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Whatever.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. 

 

No mounted cowboy or other horseman would ever wear footwear without a heel if there was an alternative.  Smooth bottom shoes are very dangerous on horseback.  CAS is either going to be "Cowboy" Action Shooting or its evolving into something else, inch by inch.  

 

I think I'll paint my lightweight leather and rubber athletic "moccasins" brown, put a few rawhide stitches in them for authenticity, and go for faster stage times. 

Opinions will differ, I am sure, and that's OK... 

 

Go for the faster stage times.  You won't see them by changing your shoes/boots.

[Tyrel Cody]

Somebody forgot to tell Bill Cody he's supposed to wear boots:

 

 

And this guy too:

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

So since let's say 1550 when the Spanish horses were beginning to become part of the Native American means of transport and hauling until lets 1850 when we made them adapt I would venture they weren't wearing boots. And as had been said "boots" weren't the predominate footwear for most. The modern "cowboy" boot is a 20th century adoption.

 

Ike

[Eliphalet R. Moderator]

10 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

FWIW - Lug soles and moccasins are allowed in all categories except "Classic" & "B-Western".

 

I'd have to get a few more "official" opinions regarding the legality of this specific style, though.

 

This.

 There's been a lot of stir-crazy squabbling we've had to remove because it was downright rude and uncalled for.  Y'all are representatives of SASS.  Keep it civil.

[Cat Brules]

1 hour ago, Tyrel Cody said:

Somebody forgot to tell Bill Cody he's supposed to wear boots:

 

 

And this guy too:

 

I really like pictures of Bill Cody!  I’ve seen pictures of him with what looks like a pair of 1851 Colt Navy revolvers, too.  Looks like he might have a lone SAA in this picture, though.  Nice.

 

I don’t know who the man in the other picture is, but that’s a good one, too!

 

Cat Brules

[Dusty Devil Dale]

3 hours ago, Doc Shapiro said:

 

Go for the faster stage times.  You won't see them by changing your shoes/boots.

That's uninformed.  Why do you think other athletes (including most other shooting sports) wear specialized shoes? 

I bet I can run 3-5 yds between shooting positions in those shoes  at least a second faster than in cowboy boots.  

I'm waiting to see if PWB reports they are legal with regard to style.  If so, my other high, stiff footwear is history.  

[Dusty Devil Dale]

2 hours ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

So since let's say 1550 when the Spanish horses were beginning to become part of the Native American means of transport and hauling until lets 1850 when we made them adapt I would venture they weren't wearing boots. And as had been said "boots" weren't the predominate footwear for most. The modern "cowboy" boot is a 20th century adoption.

 

Ike

  Cowboy boots reportedly first appeared in the 1870s.  Before that riders wore military style (i. e., Civil War) boots.  Both had abruptly raised heels to hold in the stirrups.   Before that, the Native Americans rode bareback, in which case their footwear would not have mattered.  

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

1 hour ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

I bet I can run 3-5 yds between shooting positions in those shoes  at least a second faster than in cowboy boots.  

Absolutely guarantee you cannot.

 

3-5 yards should not take anyone of reasonable health or ability more than 1 to 1.5 seconds to traverse.

 

Taking a full second off a normal persons 3-5 yards time would make their speed between positions near instantaneous.  

 

While that would certainly be advantageous - shoes alone won't do it.

 

Transport of that sort requires Starfleet technology, warp drive and a Scottish born engineer.

 

 

[McCandless]

8 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

That's uninformed.  Why do you think other athletes (including most other shooting sports) wear specialized shoes? 

I bet I can run 3-5 yds between shooting positions in those shoes  at least a second faster than in cowboy boots.  

I'm waiting to see if PWB reports they are legal with regard to style.  If so, my other high, stiff footwear is history.  

 

Dusty, 

Doc Shapiro is anything but uninformed.  He's done studies on many facets of this game.  His books and videos have helped a lot of shooters become faster or more proficient.   His study on recoil, along with Badlands Bud have helped dispel the "no recoil is faster myth".  Most of us "ground pounders" don't wear riding heels.  (I'm excluding the Costume Categories for now)...  For the most part we wear "walking heels".   

 

Personally, I gimp along at about the same rate no matter what heel I'm wearing.  If my knees don't give out and I don't fall over, it's a good day.  There are better ways to make up time than between shooting positions. 

 

But, this thread, as most, has wandered far afield from Ruby's simple question and PWB's answer.  The only question is, "are they SASS-legal", not what we opine.

 

Good shootin'!  (whenever we can start up again).

~Duc~

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

21 hours ago, Ozark Huckleberry said:

Cool.

 

When shooting starts back, I've got my moccasins ready to go.

 

 

I too will await PWBs ruling on the shoes Ruby posted. My neuromas would sure like them.

 

However, I cringe at the photo Ozark Huckleberry posted. Unless he has an accommodation, I would say they look like athletic shoes, which are Outlawed. See page 5 of the SHB. "All types of athletic shoes or combat boots, no matter the material from which

they are constructed."

[Dusty Devil Dale]

10 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Absolutely guarantee you cannot.

 

3-5 yards should not take anyone of reasonable health or ability more than 1 to 1.5 seconds to traverse.

 

Taking a full second off a normal persons 3-5 yards time would make their speed between positions near instantaneous.  

 

While that would certainly be advantageous - shoes alone won't do it.

 

Transport of that sort requires Starfleet technology, warp drive and a Scottish born engineer.

 

 

Nothing to gain by arguing the point.   Every competent athlete in every other sport wears specialty footwear to enhance their traction, speed, support, and overall performance.  The design diversity in athletic shoes speaks adequately to the point that shoes DO make a difference to performance.   

 

In response to your calculations, I will maintain my original statement.   I'm very sluggish and clumbsy, moving about in bulky, heavier boots.  Going 3-5 yds takes ME (emphasize I was talking about ME) much more than 1-1/2 seconds, especially if destination time to reposition is included.  My transition times for moving and changing GUNS often run 4 seconds-ish. 

But wearing athletic shoes or any other lighter, more flexible shoe, I can accelerate waaaaay faster and literally leap the 3 yds.  Easily a second of difference.  And even if it was only a 1/4 sec advantage, that's still a significant advantage over say fifteen position changes in a typical 10 stage match.  I'll gladly take that 3-3/4 second reduction on final time.   

 

I would take up a bet if you offered one.  (Since we're talking about ME.)  All I have to do to get your money is move a bit slower in boots.  

 

[Yul Lose]

I’ve been scolded by a few people for wearing Earthwalker boots that I’ve had custom made because they aren’t authentic to the old west and the heels don’t have a spur shelf on them, whatever that means. Very few shooters out here wear authentic old west cowboy boots. Most wear modern day Ariats or other makes that they get from Boot Barn with the rubber or crepe soles. I’ve tried wearing the heeled boots and my feet and back kill me at the end of a match. If I show up in the moccasins in the OP and somebody has a problem with it you’ll get the same response that the person got when they questioned my Earthwalkers, mind your own business. Many people that I shoot with have foot issues and I applaud them for choosing to play the game anyway. Like it or not we are all getting older and our bodies are wearing out and we do things to make life easier. Back when these rules about footwear were written the writers of the rules were a lot younger and didn’t think they were going to get old and have the health issues many of us do.

[Dusty Devil Dale]

26 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

Many people that I shoot with have foot issues and I applaud them for choosing to play the game anyway. Like it or not we are all getting older and our bodies are wearing out and we do things to make life easier. Back when these rules about footwear were written the writers of the rules were a lot younger and didn’t think they were going to ge

That's very true.  It's pretty remarkable how most of the older folks among us of us can still perform, while grimacing in pain. 

 Someday, I expect the apparel rules might be bent or changed.  

[Yul Lose]

5 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

That's very true.  It's pretty remarkable how most of the older folks among us of us can still perform, while grimacing in pain. 

 Someday, I expect the apparel rules might be bent or changed.  

And regardless of the rules I’ll wear the footwear that I want whether you like it or not. 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

I will just add that while I said I would vote no if my vote counted on whether those shoes were legal, I also would not say anything to anyone wearing them.  Heck, I shoot with a few people who wear actual athletic shoes and nobody says anything, because we know they need them.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

1 hour ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

I would take up a bet if you offered one.  (Since we're talking about ME.)  All I have to do to get your money is move a bit slower in boots.  

 

 

I presented you with the error of your argument; that these shoes would you a full second faster in 3-5 yard movement.

 

By simple math - any reasonable person in our game can cover 3-5 yards in under 2 seconds.

 

Equal effort (not clumsy and stumbling vs leaping) over equal distance (3-5 yards) - these shoes will NOT gain any reasonable person 1 second.  Period.

 

And your counter is; I could just move slower in my boots to prove you wrong.

 

Interesting debate strategy.

[Dr Matt Lurse]

4 hours ago, McCandless said:

 

Doc Shapiro is anything but uninformed...   His study on recoil, along with Badlands Bud have helped dispel the "no recoil is faster myth"...

This is interesting.  Anyone have a link or the results?  I didn’t see it in his book (though I just skimmed looking) and google-fu turned up short.

thanks!

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

18 hours ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

I've yet to get my Sawyers school certificate so we got keep you around as long as we can. Wear what you gotta and keep shooting.

I can't believe  you haven't gone  through The World Famous Sawyer's Shooting School.  Lots of World Champions came out of his school!

 

Randy

[Captain Bill Burt]

14 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

That's uninformed.  Why do you think other athletes (including most other shooting sports) wear specialized shoes? 

I bet I can run 3-5 yds between shooting positions in those shoes  at least a second faster than in cowboy boots.  

I'm waiting to see if PWB reports they are legal with regard to style.  If so, my other high, stiff footwear is history.  

Dale, you’re talking to the guy who ‘wrote the book’ on improving your performance in CAS!

 

When I got started 9 years ago a world champ told me to read ‘Breaking the Shot’ and ‘With Winning in Mind.’  Both were well worth it and Doc wrote the first one.

[Doc Shapiro]

31 minutes ago, Dr Matt Lurse said:

This is interesting.  Anyone have a link or the results?  I didn’t see it in his book (though I just skimmed looking) and google-fu turned up short.

thanks!

 

The results had been published on my web site, but that's long since shut down.  But I'll give you the background.

 

I was at a local Steel Challenge match.  A few shooters on our squad were shooting 2 guns.  Both set up similarly (red dot sight, compensator).  One in .22 and the other in 38 super.  While running the clock, I noticed that split times for the .22's were consistently higher than with the higher powered 38 super.  .03, .04, .05.  Not much, but noticeable on the clock.

 

I had a chat with Bud about it and speculated that some recoil is necessary for 2 things: 1) recoil part of your body's sensory system and provides a distinct notification to move on to the next target; and 2) recoil acts as energy going back into the system so that it can be redirected to reduce the load on the small muscles and help get to the next target quicker - much like in Judo where the attackers energy is redirected and he is thrown.

 

We went on to do a significant amount of testing to prove this out.  Everything from 96gr bullets at 400fps (yes, we used a chrono), to 158gr bullets at 900fps, with a lot of variation in between.  We found the fastest consistent splits came from 125gr bullets at 825fps.  The slowest splits were at both extremes of bullet weight and velocity.  Differences were as much as .05 per split.  While that isn't much, over 8 shots (the first shot on each gun isn't affected as it's draw time) for a run that adds up to .4.  For a 6 stage match, 2.4 seconds.

 

Back to topic, we also did some movement tests comparing various soled cowboy boots.  We ended up that individual fit and comfort is the most important consideration, not the sole or boot structure.

 

Doc

[Dusty Devil Dale]

3 hours ago, Yul Lose said:

And regardless of the rules I’ll wear the footwear that I want whether you like it or not. 

Fair enough.  When I'm TOing or spotting, the shooters feet are pretty much the last thing I'm looking at.   And in your own case, when I'm not TOing or spotting, I'd likely be looking at your gun cart.  

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

3 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

That's very true.  It's pretty remarkable how most of the older folks among us of us can still perform, while grimacing in pain. 

 Someday, I expect the apparel rules might be bent or changed.  

IMO, no need to bend or change any rules. Just ask the Match Director for a reasonable accommodation.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

1 hour ago, Doc Shapiro said:

 

The results had been published on my web site, but that's long since shut down.  But I'll give you the background.

 

I was at a local Steel Challenge match.  A few shooters on our squad were shooting 2 guns.  Both set up similarly (red dot sight, compensator).  One in .22 and the other in 38 super.  While running the clock, I noticed that split times for the .22's were consistently higher than with the higher powered 38 super.  .03, .04, .05.  Not much, but noticeable on the clock.

 

I had a chat with Bud about it and speculated that some recoil is necessary for 2 things: 1) recoil part of your body's sensory system and provides a distinct notification to move on to the next target; and 2) recoil acts as energy going back into the system so that it can be redirected to reduce the load on the small muscles and help get to the next target quicker - much like in Judo where the attackers energy is redirected and he is thrown.

 

We went on to do a significant amount of testing to prove this out.  Everything from 96gr bullets at 400fps (yes, we used a chrono), to 158gr bullets at 900fps, with a lot of variation in between.  We found the fastest consistent splits came from 125gr bullets at 825fps.  The slowest splits were at both extremes of bullet weight and velocity.  Differences were as much as .05 per split.  While that isn't much, over 8 shots (the first shot on each gun isn't affected as it's draw time) for a run that adds up to .4.  For a 6 stage match, 2.4 seconds.

 

Back to topic, we also did some movement tests comparing various soled cowboy boots.  We ended up that individual fit and comfort is the most important consideration, not the sole or boot structure.

 

Doc

 

Did you ever study the speed a .22 slide travels vs centerfire? 

OLG 

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

9 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

IMO, no need to bend or change any rules. Just ask the Match Director for a reasonable accommodation.

 

And that is the KISS principle put in use.  

OLG 

[Doc Shapiro]

13 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

 

Did you ever study the speed a .22 slide travels vs centerfire? 

OLG 

 

 

We considered that.  But on slow motion video, it turned out to not be a factor.

 

Doc

[VICIOUS, SASS#8014]

Great as a lumberjack, guess the hob nailed boot are good.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

20 minutes ago, Doc Shapiro said:

 

We considered that.  But on slow motion video, it turned out to not be a factor.

 

Doc

 

Time the slide,  and you'll set the difference in cycling speed via frame count of the video. 

Many .22 slides are much slower than any centerfire slide.

OLG 

[Doc Shapiro]

15 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

 

Time the slide,  and you'll set the difference in cycling speed via frame count of the video. 

Many .22 slides are much slower than any centerfire slide.

OLG 

 

True, but it wasn't so slow as to impede the next shot.  In none of the footage was a trigger pulled before the slide returned.  Thus we deduced it wasn't a factor.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

50 minutes ago, Doc Shapiro said:

 

True, but it wasn't so slow as to impede the next shot.  In none of the footage was a trigger pulled before the slide returned.  Thus we deduced it wasn't a factor.

Slower in feedback to the hand.

We played a good bit with this when I shot with SWPL, back in my IPSC dayz...

OLG 

 

 

[Dusty Devil Dale]

4 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

 

I presented you with the error of your argument; that these shoes would you a full second faster in 3-5 yard movement.

 

By simple math - any reasonable person in our game can cover 3-5 yards in under 2 seconds.

 

Equal effort (not clumsy and stumbling vs leaping) over equal distance (3-5 yards) - these shoes will NOT gain any reasonable person 1 second.  Period.

 

And your counter is; I could just move slower in my boots to prove you wrong.

 

Interesting debate strategy.

I sincerely apologize for the obviously failed attempt at humor.

 

I want to point out that I never wrote a word about anybody else.  I was talking about ME and how footwear affects MY performance.  Maybe everybody else can cover a position change in under 2 seconds.  I'm very envious.   My TIMED position changes are rarely under 4 seconds. (And, I do time and work on them every time I practice.).  None of you have any clue what physical handicaps I might be dealing with, but still you  presume to know more about MY movement times than I do.  I am 100% positive that in less restrictive footwear (than cowboy boots) I can change positions more quickly.   And over a number of position changes in an average match,  that is enough time differential to affect rank position.   My original statement was that the less restrictive footwear affords a competitive advantage, and I'll stick with that analysis, at least in my own case.  

 

To those of you who disbelieve that footwear can affect stage times, I suggest trying to convince a Three Gun or any other action shooting sport competitor to wear cowboy boots.  Don't be disillusioned when they laugh.   They know the importance of their footwear in their movement and shooting performance.   

 

 

 

[Cypress Sun]

1 minute ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

I sincerely apologize for the obviously failed attempt at humor.

 

I want to point out that I never wrote a word about anybody else.  I was talking about ME and how footwear affects MY performance.  Maybe everybody else can cover a position change in under 2 seconds.  I'm very envious.   My TIMED position changes are rarely under 4 seconds. (And, I do time and work on them every time I practice.).  None of you have any clue what physical handicaps I might be dealing with, but still you  presume to know more about MY movement times than I do.  I am 100% positive that in less restrictive footwear (than cowboy boots) I can change positions more quickly.   And over a number of position changes in an average match,  that is enough time differential to affect rank position.   My original statement was that the less restrictive footwear affords a competitive advantage, and I'll stick with that analysis, at least in my own case.  

 

To those of you who disbelieve that footwear can affect stage times, I suggest trying to convince a Three Gun or any other action shooting sport competitor to wear cowboy boots.  Don't be disillusioned when they laugh.   They know the importance of their footwear in their movement and shooting performance.   

 

 

 

 

 

You're right, I have no clue as to your running abilities, good or bad, but I'm willing to bet $100 that you can't leap 3 yards (9') with even a running start.

 

You state that Doc Shapiro is "uninformed". I can assure you that he is not uninformed. Doc has been doing this MUCH longer that you and many other folks and has taken the time, effort and money to inform people how to improve themselves in CAS.

 

In case you haven't noticed, we don't use rank position for scoring any longer.

 

If your analysis is that less restrictive footwear affords you a competitive advantage, that's fine. If someone else wears less restrictive, yet legal, footwear for comfort or to simply play this game without limping for the next 2 days, it doesn't matter if the footwear is acceptable to you or not.

 

I have never understood why some people can't admit that they have made a mistake and instead just bring out a bigger shovel to "make" their point.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Ya know Sun, I'm sure you do, we haven't always agreed on everything. However, I do agree with you more as time goes by.

[Doc Shapiro]

The argument about athletic shoes, or even cleats, is a red herring as you're not comparing SASS legal items.  Compare various SASS legal shoes/boots.  Find what's comfortable and works best for you.

 

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

1 hour ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

  I am 100% positive that in less restrictive footwear (than cowboy boots) I can change positions more quickly.   

 

 

 

Then stop wearing cowboy boots....get ya pair of historically accurate lace ups. Not everyone was a cowboy, there were doctors , lawyers, hardware clerks, all kinds of jobs related to railroad, lumberjacks, lumbers mills....etc....etc. I dress as a townie with nice vests and silk scarfs or ties while wearing my Redwing shoes, have a pair of cap toes for dress up. I'm a real estate tycoon buying up all the little farms so I can control water rights. ha ha 

28 minutes ago, Doc Shapiro said:

.  Compare various SASS legal shoes/boots.  Find what's comfortable and works best for you.

 

Ta Daaa!!

 

JefroRelax-Enjoy

[Dr Matt Lurse]

Too cool, thanks Doc!