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BootStrap Phil

“Change is inevitable. Growth is optional.”

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Posted (edited)

Well chewed on whether or not to post/write/even bring up, cause lets face it-its the wire and been discussed before I am sure.....

 

Anywhoo here we go. Well recently again I found myself reading a long drawn out post/thread on Facebook going on about; " In my day" "Minimal Costuming", "All about Speed now", all the same stuff I have heard folks go on, and on, and on about in my short 4 and some change years.

 

Ok, so most places do not throw tomahawks, jump up on a saddled 55 gallon drum, etc. So folks are not dropping a small fortune on costuming and meeting the minimal standards as stated, but they meet the standards right? Speed, hmmm so folks spend countless hours of their own time in basements dry firing, spend more money and time on the range practicing then others, folks pushing themselves to be the best they can be at a discipline IMHO is more of a accomplishment than our kin of practical shooters/three gunners. To take single action weapon system and come up with that kind of speed we are seeing now days is quite the feat-hats off.

 

so lets break it down:

1) "In my day"; in your day cost of living was cheaper. Today seen folks tent camp just so they can shoot; Today weapon systems are more expensive; Today supplies are more expensive; Today still working, family kids, life responsibilities; Today seasoned SASS folks telling "should be this way". I put to you this, are they here shooting? So what if all they have is wranglers hat and western shirt from Walmart? Hell I have seen silver seniors and up in same attire, isn't it enough they are here shooting and helping expand the sport (which is another topic folks go on about)? Maybe, just maybe it took a lot of their resources just to get guns and ammo to play and dress is a the bottom of the priority list?

 

2) "Speed", Well all ready inputted on this above but to elaborate a bit more. I personally believe that the speedsters have help validate our sport a bit more in the shooting community. I mean how many times have you heard a practical shooter crack on the sport or a three gunner? Again it is a feat to have times that challenge any Practical shooter. So the sport is becoming about speed and competition, is this a bad thing? Again our speedsters have put in the time and effort to get there!

 

I hear not just on the wire but everywhere I travel the conversation of sports dying out, not getting new members, how do we attract the younger ones? Well lets start with not complaining about them being speedsters or not dressing to the nine, its about the people right? I believe to answer some of these topics of discussion is change, let the sport grow and morph into what it is becoming/become. Here is the beauty of the sport the historian, the costumer, the gent/gal that just wants to shoot, or the folks just want to hang out with friends, or more personally for me do a fun activity with my spouse that we enjoy together. it all can be found in the sport of Single Action Shooting, the change of stages over the years, the lack of added extras (tomahawks, knife throwing etc.), the lack of costuming does it really affect us? I mean truly can't everyone get what they want? I put to you if new folks hear this negativity, see the resistance to change and they are just starting out could this not produce results that are not beneficial to the sport? 

 

"In my day" .......well lets just let it be today and enjoy what we have now! "If you can't change it, change your attitude."

 

with respect and regards

 

 

Edited by BootStrap Phil
Grammar-Punctuation
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I'll be your Huckleberry ha ha, I saw the same post on FB, and tend to agree a bit. To use a concept from another Cowboy shooter, if there is no degree of accuracy it's not a sport. Coming from 3 gun and IDPA  you do get points for being accurate on the target, there are scoring areas. Cowboy Action looses credibility when people see videos of fast shooters but the targets are so close it is on the edge of ridiculous. Like yourself I am a new shooter and all the clubs and events that I have shot at so far do not have targets that close. I don't think I would have pursued the sport if they were. I do think there has to be a middle ground between high action and stand and deliver, especially for our older shooters.

One thing I believe is a cop out is when people say it's to expensive to start. A beginner set up is no more expensive than a set up for 3 gun, high power shooting or any other hobby. If you want to do it you will find a way.

Of course these our my opinions, and opinions are like as....... 

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Phil,

I wholeheartedly agree.

Our sport has ,what I feel,are reasonsble minimum requirements.They seem to be at a level that would not prevent new shooters from participating in a sport that is admittedly pretty expensive to get started in anyway.In both equipment and costuming.

If shooters want to surpass those limits,there is nothing to keep them from doing that.They are after all ,minimums.

The same goes for performance levels.Go as fast as you are comfortable with,be safe and have fun.

Just my thoughts, 

Choctaw Jack

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I will just say this about costume "minimums".  I believe the Wild Bunch's intentions were to allow people to easily get started.  The idea was that they would progress to better costuming (side note: I hate the term 'costuming'.  They are duds, or clothes).  Blaming it on cost is a cop-out.  Yeah, you can spend as much as guns on clothes (and some do), but you can also go way beyond the minimum by being smart and creative with just a bit of effort.

 

For myself, I have become somewhat of a clothes horse (not a speed demon - so more important to look good :) )  .  In 20 years now, I've got at least 10 full outfits and by mix/match could make many more.  But my cost has been WAY below new/retail because I'm always looking for bargains.

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Posted (edited)

As my father used to say " the initial investment is high, but it gets much cheaper after that".  He was actually talking about his hobby of skydiving, but it applies here. After you get all the guns, and hopefully reload, it isn't all that expensive to shoot local matches. I have managed to gear up 4 people, and by no means do I have lots of money. Buy used, trade, make do for a while. Like most things,  you can't start at the top, it takes time and effort. But it can be just as much fun when you are new as it is 21 years later, like myself, if you just do what works for you, as long as it is within the rules. And if you are lucky, you will be like Abilene and myself, with a whole lot of stuff to choose from. I have an armoire in my bedroom that just holds my cowboy clothes! I may not be fast, but I put in the effort to look the part, as that is an important part of the game to me. 

Edited by Springfield Slim SASS #24733
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At 73 and with bad lungs  I am afraid that running and jumping are no longer an option for me BUT do feel that in the older days we had more fun when many of the “action sports” elements were an option for the competitive shooter.  In those days I do remember seeing one or two of the old guys who played cowboy with us while pulling their oxygen tank behind them.  These were the guys who were the real champs in my book, not the ones who tell us how we need to just stand still and shoot fast for the old timers!  Hell I are one right now and iffen the Good Lord will grant me the time I will try my hand at shooting and pulling my tank along pretty soon.

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Change is inevitable - except from a vending machine.

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great thread , as one of those silver seniors that is slow and dresses to what i have - always trying to add a little , i appreciate we are not so exclusive to be only a sport for the wealthy that can afford great costumes and speedsters that i enjoy watching but will never compete with , 

 

that said i do enjoy all of it and yes i do love seeing the great costumes that some have put together , and love watching the very fast perform , i also enjoy seeing that cloud from a traditional BP shooters stage even if i cant see his hits on the target through the clouds of aromatic smoke , i also seeing the elders shoot that need help getting everything to the line and off to the unloading table - in my case its about the fun we are all having together , 

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OK, how much fun was it back in the day? I'm pretty long in the tooth and been around  this game for a fair amount of time.  So your day must have started before my day.  My first match was at Cody WY and I admit I thought that was "back in the day" , you know I had a real good time.  Seems that my last experience with SASS was last week at Ben Avery in Phoenix  and you know I had a real good time.  Scoring rings are a down right nice thing except they don't work real well with steel.  While 21st century three gun looks fun their handgun targets are not a lot further out and hold 20 rds with an optic mounted proudly on top.  A nineteenth century three gunner however while targets are closer only has 5 rds for 5 targets then must change guns.  Sights are iron and the cocking manual yet times are similar.  The rifle suffers a similar story sights, manual operation and only 10 rds to accomplish what the other has 30 to do.  The shotgun well the saga continues.  So let me say for myself the challenge is real, the skill needed to excel is real and as in the day.  ITS FUN. 

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Speed, speed, and speed.  I do miss the days of using props that were a part of the shoot. I know that as our group is getting older we can't do some of the physically

challenging things from the past but there are many props that will work for our age group.  Just had a get together with a bunch of pards Sunday and they all agree that the 10, 10, 4 without something added is getting pretty mundane.  I'm finding it harder to get excited about going to a shoot.  Of course it's really all about the people and that's the main thing that keeps me coming back.

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If you want authentic then go to a NCOWS match, a muzzleloading rendezvous or join a NS skirmish group. If you want to shoot gimmicked up Italian reproductions loaded with mousefart loads as fast as possible at way too close targets wearing a sass ‘outfit’ [boots, big hat and a long sleeve shirt] then you’re in the right place. To those shooters who dress and shoot classic cowboy or shoot holy black these comments do not apply to you,  you are what cas ideally is but without the runners, gunners and gamers who appeal to the youngsters and some oldsters cas would go away. I’ve often though that sass should have an unlimited or open category to separate  the real competitors?  from the rest of us who are just having a good time playing cowboys and indians. Though I do wish for a Classic Military Category that would time wise include The Punitive Expedition [1912].  Give’em hell, Pike. 

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On 3/6/2020 at 7:09 AM, BootStrap Phil said:

how do we attract the younger ones? Well lets start with not complaining about them being speedsters or not dressing to the nine, its about the people right?

 

^ This X 1,000

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Posted (edited)

Ugh, not this old chestnut again.  SASS is many things and there is room for everyone to shoot it the way they want.  
 

In general, in the old days there were a lot more interesting props and fun shooting experiences (riding in a moving ore cart while shooting a stage at Mokulumne Hill comes to mind).  The targets were farther away and the stages placed more demands on the shooter.  But, as SASS got popular, there were too many people and too many inexperienced (sometimes entirely new) shooters to keep doing this.  The need to get lots of folks through stages fast and safely inevitably led to simpler stages.  That’s just the way things go.

 

Old SASS was a heck of a lot of fun.  How do we know?  Lots and lots of people saw it and said “I want to do that!”  But growth came at a price and SASS changed.  Folks who came later have no way to judge the changes and get testy when people say it was more fun in the old days.  That’s natural, they enjoy it the way it is now.  Heck, they might not even like what SASS was in the old days.  But it does not matter really.  It is what it is and there is no going back.  
 

Everyone just needs to cut each other some slack and enjoy SASS their own way.  Lots of room under the tent.  

Edited by Doc Coles SASS 1188
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I'm slow and I'm OK with that.  I do enjoy watching the "Young Guns" fly through a stage.  I never experienced the old stages of riding in ore cars or throwing a tomahawk.  On those notes the difference at least for me is the difference between a sport and a game.  I'll never compete for National Champion and I'm good with that, why I may never even be competitive on a state level, but that's a choice.  I don't put the time and effort into countless hours of dry firing and practicing transitions, again my choice.  Those are not things that drove me to the game, but I do have Fun at every match, for me that's enough.  I enjoy the feel of going back in time, to a simpler time, when a man's word was his bond and people weren't going 100MPH 24/7.  So, at least for me I'll let the men and women that want to develop the skills to compete for speed go ahead and I'll still have fun and just try to better my times and accuracy, when it's no longer fun it becomes work.

 

Remember without change there'd be a lot of wet babies :D

 

These are my opinions and you got what you paid for.

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1 hour ago, Doc Coles SASS 1188 said:

Ugh, not this old chestnut again.  
 

  

Agreed.

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Must be something to it if it keeps popping up.

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Just my two cents for those longing for the "good old days"

I personally really like throwing knives, tomahawks, ropes, carry gold bags on the clock or not, rolling dice for starting target or suit of targets etc     BUT..................

Riding the barrel on springs to mimic a horse - torn meniscus to me and torn ACL to another when the barrel turned and pinned their knee

Riding the ore cart down a slope into the "mine" - watched a smaller stature shooter hit the end point hard enough to shake dust from the opposite end because they could not reach the brake pedals to stop

Standing/Walking on the bedsprings with a panel on them while shooting - watched another shooter send two over the berm (at that range a MDQ) and several others hit the top of the berm (barely) Yet another shooter ended up becoming disoriented enough that when headed for the ULT they turned back to the gallery and swept the entire posse. Others merely stumbled as getting off while readjusting to solid ground.

The "gallows" with only 3 steps - shooter shot rifle from gallows area, came down steps and stumbled, did face plant into gravel and tore up the forearm of a '73. To his credit did not sweep anyone or drop gun, just bloody

Shooting from the bathtub - Shoot target using staged pistols, then return guns to a well made short table, get out move to next gun. Larger shooter tried to get out using one hand, knocked both pistols to floor did not sweep any one (SDQ) Another in getting to next shooting position had no SG shells (still in tub) turned to go back (while holding rifle) which did sweep everyone (MDQ) and a sore back for several days from twisting as rising.

Shooting from inside the "stage coach" - perfectly sized for a shorter shooter, as a big guy I (and several others) had to kneel on both knees to see out, lefties had to extend body out side and twist as left hand targets were behind the prop wall from their perspective.

Plenty of others have seen similar, and worse.

I am no where near as good a shape as i once was and back then it sometimes felt uncomfortable or dangerous to play on these things. Today I have a lot more to sacrifice in terms of healing time, lost income, and other interests that would have to go on hold if I were to be injured.

Watching my fellow shooters get hurt, damage expensive firearms or in some cases quit because the risk outweighed the "fun" convinced me that it would be no problem (for me) to see these props, scenarios and accidents waiting to happen go away.

Once was enough.

 

Regards

 

:FlagAm: :FlagAm: :FlagAm:

 

Gateway Kid

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1 hour ago, Baltimore Ed said:

Must be something to it if it keeps popping up.


There is definitely something to it, but like getting older, there ain’t really anything to do about it.  As with youth, it’s not coming back (though I wish it would), and the new reality is a lot less fun than the old.  The best you can do with old age and SASS is to do what you want to do, take care of yourself, and enjoy the ride.  There are lots of ways to play this game, you just need to find a way that works for you.  

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Hi Gateway kid,

 Like you I have enjoyed many things done in the past on stages and miss that fun, but like you

 I didn't care for a Seige at San Juan match, either! I recall all those questionable stages you list as being there except for the bathtub the one year I went.  I thought a number of them were poorly designed then and even refused to do one.  Had an off one handed shooting from the hip stage that I didn't  care for either, that year (try that with full power black powder 44-40 loads (no filler and 200 grain bullets) from a 7 1/2 inch barrel Vaquero).  Never went back.

Nonetheless, still think there are some props and storylines that are still safe/do-able, and do miss that sort of thing as the local clubs here have pretty much all gone away from that old style.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

I shot the Siege years ago and liked the match.  No one complained about the match being unsafe or was hurt.  I found shooting off the bed springs challenging as was shooting off the horse suspended by multiple springs.  I particularly liked shooting from the hip at suspended gas cylinders (I shot that stage clean).  However, I think having shooters wearing spurs negotiate stairs quickly risks tripping.  A few years ago I shot Colorado State at the same range and found all these stages replaced with stages more appropriate for older shooters.  I enjoyed that match too.

Edited by Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971

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On 3/6/2020 at 11:22 AM, Hangem Hank said:

I'll be your Huckleberry ha ha, I saw the same post on FB, and tend to agree a bit. To use a concept from another Cowboy shooter, if there is no degree of accuracy it's not a sport. Coming from 3 gun and IDPA  you do get points for being accurate on the target, there are scoring areas. Cowboy Action looses credibility when people see videos of fast shooters but the targets are so close it is on the edge of ridiculous. Like yourself I am a new shooter and all the clubs and events that I have shot at so far do not have targets that close. I don't think I would have pursued the sport if they were. I do think there has to be a middle ground between high action and stand and deliver, especially for our older shooters.

One thing I believe is a cop out is when people say it's to expensive to start. A beginner set up is no more expensive than a set up for 3 gun, high power shooting or any other hobby. If you want to do it you will find a way.

Of course these our my opinions, and opinions are like as....... 

I will disagree about cost.  If I swing  by my LGS everyday or every other day for a couple of weeks I know I can get a glock for $400 or less.  An AR for between $400 and $500.( Right now my LGS has complete upper and lowers that can be paired up for around $425 and new PSA AR for under $500.  Add in an 870 for $200 or less and you can shoot 3 gun.  Not the best set up but you can shoot.  CAS will run a good bit more.

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1 hour ago, smokedawg SASS#60968 said:

I will disagree about cost.  If I swing  by my LGS everyday or every other day for a couple of weeks I know I can get a glock for $400 or less.  An AR for between $400 and $500.( Right now my LGS has complete upper and lowers that can be paired up for around $425 and new PSA AR for under $500.  Add in an 870 for $200 or less and you can shoot 3 gun.  Not the best set up but you can shoot.  CAS will run a good bit more.

And you can get a Rossi for around $500 and pistols for $470 each and a Stoger coach gun. Not much more than the bargain basement 3 gun set up you listed. Plus a lot of people selling used stuff. The point was, if you want to do it you will find a way. Plenty of broke people who can't do stuff but they can drop $200 for dinner and bar hopping, $1000 on the iPhone ver 975 etc etc.... Hell, if a new guy shows up, most of the time people are throwing guns at them so they can shoot.

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On 3/7/2020 at 1:55 PM, Baltimore Ed said:

Must be something to it if it keeps popping up.

Yep, there is.  It's folks being myopic in their attitude.  Doc Coles said it right, when "quick" stage times were in the 40-50 second range, and EOT limited entrants to 300-350 shooters, we still had posses shooting after everyone else had finished, some even having to show up early the next day to complete their 4th stage of the day.  This was in the days when we only needed one sixgun, rifle shooting & the shotgun were more important than the 5 shots outta yer hogleg!

 

Going back isn't an option.  I loved the "action", but with knees that are a bit wobbly, bursitis in both shoulders, elbows that hurt all the time, it ain't an option!  If you want that, SET UP YOUR OWN MATCHES, see how many of even your contemporaries show up!

 

Complainin' about what the game has become is counter-productive.  And if you can stand the truth, it shows a bit of a character flaw.  And if you don't think someone meets the dress code, call 'em out, don't wuss out and complain to the Wire!  Coward!

 

My apologies to the Wire for such heated comments.  The vast majority of those I've come in contact with over the 34+ years I've played this game have all enjoyed the game... let's not overly concern ourselves with a few malcontents!  They'd complain if we strung 'em up with a new rope...   I'll shut up, before y'all size me up for the rope!

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"..I'm slow and I'm OK with that.  I do enjoy watching the "Young Guns" fly through a stage. .." 

 

im with you here , i love watching the fast shooters , its great fun , i on the other hand want to enjoy my shooting and each stage , no matter how badly i shoot . needs to be a great adventure , its my life im living , i want to enjoy it every second of it , 

 

i get great pleasure from watching the young shoot and become a part of this adventure , i also enjoy my elders still enjoying it - as few as they have become these days , 

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From my seat the cost isn't that bad considering what atv's , motorcycles, snowmobiles, rv's and trucks sell for, I see lots of people not having any issue spending 25k on a Harley to pretend they are bad bikers. So 2k to get into this sport seems like a bargain.

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Posted (edited)

id not argue that - the truth is we all spend where we can where we want , i can t afford a harley and thank god i bought my expensive cowboy guns and gear when i had the disposable cash , the costumes to me where always second as this is a/was a shooting sport that replaced another shooting sport that had no costuming regs , im not trying to play down the reasoning behind the "look" in this game in any way , i appreciate this very much - i love seeing the great costumes , i wish i had the eye for some of this when i shop i just buy that item i was looking for - not a full ensemble , so many look so good - ill never compete on that stage , 

 

i just find my own way in a combination of aged impressions from my youthful exposure and the movies that motivate one entire section of our group , nothing like the romance of the singing cowboys and nothing like the old westerns to give inspirations in more than one direction amid a lot of marketing , not to mention the great westerns that have followed those 50s and 60s youth , 

 

clint eastwood in the early rawhide B&W was a lot different than the spaghetti westerns - i do have a nice mexican poncho because of those tho , 

JW in the searchers [i like that and have used it] as compared to the shootist or true grit , i loved them all - i have picked up little bits here and there , 

i sought out my duster because of the "northfield raid" movie - living here gave me a new perspective of that one , knowing minnesotans can change you life as so many found in the CW ,

 

i have a new perspective on lots of things over the years , find your way , enjoy what your doing and dont get too off track because a costume nazi gives you chit - just ask the steampunker shootin on your posse , life is good , enjoy it , 

 

 

Edited by watab kid

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Posted (edited)

When I was younger and new to cas I was very much into building matches. I built a ton of props. My club already had several walls so I built us a jail,  found a saddle for a 30 gal bbl horse [with a head and tail], built a picher pump well, card table, some novelty steel and cardboard targets and my best prop was a 1917 water cooled with audio. I built matches around The Wild Bunch[we shot monthly match WB/cas shoots long before there was any organized ‘Wild Bunch’], The Wizard of Oz, Best Little Whorehouse In Texas [shooter was herding chickens from the Chicken Ranch back east], holloween themed with pillow cases over the pistol targets and Inglorious Zombie Bastards.  But with my wife's poor health and work I stopped doing them. The club prez, range officer and match designer does a super great job but has never been a prop guy. With aging the things we did in our youth just become too much hassle. I might try to cobble something up this year though. My suggestion to those who want change would be that they offer to run half a match or if you run multiple berms/stages do one or two with the props and dialogue you want. Coordinate with the match director on target positions, build a few props and go for it. At the Wy State match that I attended, one stage started with you behind hay bales with a stage knife inhand. At the beep you had to stab the hay bale and then pick up your rifle to engage targets.  You moved forward into the berm using your sg and pistol with the last 5 pistol fired at the rifle targets. There was more movement in that match than any that i had ever been to but it’s best to compromise between standing in one spot or moving all around. If you throw a tomahawk or lasso something do it off the clock. I’m sure your match director would welcome a break so get creative but of course clear everything through him and the safety officer. I don’t think I would want some of the guys I’ve shot with over the years standing on anything that was unstable, they worried me enough standing still on flat ground. 
   I built these for a Halloween shoot.The two sg targets with the sheets are what I call springers, there is a large coil spring between the base and target, when shot they go all over the place. Very spooky. If you look towards the back there is a big circular plate with a sass marshal cut out. I put a mini marshal behind it . The shooter would shoot the steel ‘aura’ around the smaller target with a bonus on the small marshal. 

6F2D8DA2-4882-4F72-88AA-5CFA5C851BFA.jpeg

Edited by Baltimore Ed

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FWIW-These are the’ good ole’ days’.

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they are mine - thats for sure and every day after that i get to enjoy , dont take anything for granted  any more , every day is the best and the good old days all rolled into one , 

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On 3/8/2020 at 7:40 PM, Hangem Hank said:

And you can get a Rossi for around $500 and pistols for $470 each and a Stoger coach gun. Not much more than the bargain basement 3 gun set up you listed. Plus a lot of people selling used stuff. The point was, if you want to do it you will find a way. Plenty of broke people who can't do stuff but they can drop $200 for dinner and bar hopping, $1000 on the iPhone ver 975 etc etc.... Hell, if a new guy shows up, most of the time people are throwing guns at them so they can shoot.

 

Sure you can get into this sport for less, but then again, the first thing every new shooter gets when posting on this board is "go buy a slicked-up 1873."

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My comment would be to buy what you can afford or borrow from a friend until you get some experience and exposure to cas. I no longer own my very first rifle [rossi 92] or first ruger bisley that I bought, found that I didn’t like them. However I still have every Ruger vaquero and Marlin 1894 rifle that I’ve ever bought and have a real 1873 and 2 repros. Still have my first sg, an antique 1900 Remington cut bbl hammer double but also have my 3 Marlin pumps-an 1887 repro- two 1897s  and a Stoeger coach gun. You can never have too many sg’s which probably should be the least expensive firearm as you use it the least. However with diligent practice any style sg can be lightning fast so in reality a double/pump or lever  is not necessarily faster than the other.

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Posted (edited)

How fast can you hit a target thats too big to miss? Why do we have sights on the firearms? Most poor people can tell you why they're not rich. If my dog bites you, I'll explain to you why its your fault.

Edited by DDD, SASS 28309

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This subject keeps comin up.  What I love about SASS is you can make it what you want.  Whether at Bordertown or Winter Range, if you go slow and line up your sights on the target, you will hit every target.  Even at Bordertown there are shooters that miss.  If everyone tried to shoot a Bordertown  stage in 15 seconds there would be more misses.  If everyone tried to shoot a Winter Range stage in 24 seconds there would be more misses.  The beauty of SASS is that you make your experience what you want to.  If dress is important to you, that's great, I will enjoy shooting next to you.  If speed is what your looking for, I will enjoy shooting next to you.  But please do not make something so enjoyable a complain fest.  Where else can you shoot next to a World or National Champion starting out.  If enough people are looking for barrel riding, knife throwing, putting a bandage on during a match you can find it if you look hard enough.  There is no right or wrong.  Shoot what you like, how you like it and have a blast.  Shoot what you can afford.  Do not worry about the scores if your no interested in being competitive.  Just enjoy shooting and be thankful someone is taking the time to set up all those targets and provide you a place to shoot.  Enjoy the people!!!!   

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