.44-40 Brass Life vs. .45 Colt “Neck Sized” Black Powder

[Fire N Iron]

Hello Everyone! My first post here, but I have been reading a ton of the great posts already out there. Haven’t found an answer to this question / questions in the existing hall of knowledge so thought I would ask. 
 

I am certain that I want to shoot black powder in CAS. Even though I am a newbie and wet behind the ears. I have been shooting muzzle stuffers and c&b revolvers with real black powder for 20 years+. I am already addicted and have no desire to go to smokeless. As such I am asking this from the angle of bp loads rather than smokeless. I also reload a little bit, loading .45 Colt, .44 Russian, and .45-70 BPCR.

 

For those of you that shoot .44-40 with BP, what kind of life do you get out of your brass? I have to admit, I am drawn by the history and authenticity (I am a part time blacksmith at a museum, to give you an idea) but I am intimidated by the thin brass on the neck. Not so much with reloading (y’all have posted some awesome info on that) but on just how fragile the cases seem to be.

 

I have been shooting .45 Colt loads with BP for a couple of years in a revolver. Now that I am looking to get a lever gun I am researching my best options. On one side, I see a strong theme of folks loving .44-40 for bp in a lever gun, on the other I worry about the brass longevity/availability.

 

For those folks that opt for the .45 Colt  in a rifle and neck-size to reduce blow-by, how is the longevity on those cases? I would imagine that working the neck like that would cause them to wear out faster.

 

Does that mean that neck-sizing .45 Colt will make the brass last about as long as .44-40 and it’s a wash?

 

Sorry for the long post.  I just thought giving a little background might be helpful.

 

Thanks in advance for any help you might have, and for tolerating another greenhorn. I tried hard to look all over the past posts on the SASS wire before asking.

 

-Fire N Iron
 

[Turkey Flats Jack]

It was a game changer for me when someone introduced me to annealing 45 brass for use with black powder loads. My annealed 45 brass seals up just as tight as my 44/40 brass. I personally wouldnt bother neck sizing 45 brass down to use in 44/40. As for availability of 44/40 starlinebrass.com always seems to have it in stock so that's a non issue IMO. I started with 58 remingtons and a 45 colt rifle. converted the remingtons later. I just recently got my 44/40 set up and honestly the only reason I went that route was because of the authenticity of the caliber. Completely a personal preference thing for me. best of luck whichever route you go. 

[Warden Callaway]

Welcome to the Wire.

 

Just my opinion, basted on shooting both 45Colt and Cowboy 45 Special and also shooting the 44WCF,  the 44WCF is a better cartridge all the way around in a lever gun.  I have Marlins in both 45Colt and 44WCF and have lost 45Colt brass due to splits but yet to loose a 44WCF due to splits.  But... I have more history shooting 45Colt.  The Marlin in 45Colt is notorious for having large chamber resulting in blowback and greatly expanded brass.  The 44WCF feeds better - like it was designed for lever guns. 

 

I couldn't verify that one case would outlast the other to any significant difference.   It would depend somewhat on the chamber dimensions and how much they are resized and how often annealed.

 

P.S.

 

Just "neck sizing" 45Colt brass may help seal the chamber in a rifle.  But if you are going to shoot the same ammo in your pistols,  it may not chamber.  That condition has bit me in the butt several times. Sawmill Mary has a set of Taylor's Smoke Wagons in 44WCF.  The throats and chambers are so tight, the brass has to be sized to keep the shoulder pushed back and 428 is the max diameter bullets that will chamber.  I was just "neck sizing" 45Colt for my Marlin. Then got a pair of Rooogers and the chambers and throats were so tight there was no way the stuff I had loaded would work.

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

I have been shooting 44-40 almost since I first started this game and have since gotten rid of all of my 45 colt rifles. There's no need for them after shooting 44-40. I only shoot mine with black powder and rarely need to do anything to clean them than to scrub the bore. The action stays very clean because the brass seals the chamber so well. As for brass life, I have had a few split, and a few more crushed when first learning them. It's been awhile since that's happened now. What causes me to lose more brass than anything else is the necks getting crushed under spotter's, TO's, and my feet during the stage. I also shoot 45 colt in my pistols and don't get the rounds mixed up. I use different color sharpies to mark the base of my rounds. Red for 44-40, blue for 45 colt, and green for 38-40. Oh yeah I have one of those too. An original 73. 38-40 is another option to consider. A big advantage of that is the bore size should be a consistent 401, where as you can find 44-40 in anything from 427 all the way up to 431!

[Cat Brules]

1 hour ago, Fire N Iron said:

Hello Everyone! My first post here, but I have been reading a ton of the great posts already out there. Haven’t found an answer to this question / questions in the existing hall of knowledge so thought I would ask. 
 

-Fire N Iron
 

 

WOW!   
—  the existing hall of knowledge

I like that!  It has a nice ring to it.....

 

Cat Brules

[Warden Callaway]

22 minutes ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

I have been shooting 44-40 almost since I first started this game and have since gotten rid of all of my 45 colt rifles. There's no need for them after shooting 44-40. I only shoot mine with black powder and rarely need to do anything to clean them than to scrub the bore. The action stays very clean because the brass seals the chamber so well. As for brass life, I have had a few split, and a few more crushed when first learning them. It's been awhile since that's happened now. What causes me to lose more brass than anything else is the necks getting crushed under spotter's, TO's, and my feet during the stage. I also shoot 45 colt in my pistols and don't get the rounds mixed up. I use different color sharpies to mark the base of my rounds. Red for 44-40, blue for 45 colt, and green for 38-40. Oh yeah I have one of those too. An original 73. 38-40 is another option to consider. A big advantage of that is the bore size should be a consistent 401, where as you can find 44-40 in anything from 427 all the way up to 431!

 

I have an original Winchester 73 in 38WCF and an early Marlin 1894 in 38WCF.   I also have a Cimarron Model P old model in 38WCF.  Love them all.  

 

 

 

[Fire N Iron]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts so far. I really mean the comment about “Hall of knowledge”. I have a ton of respect for the folks here and your knowledge and experience. 
Sounding like I don’t need to worry too much about the brass on .44-40, and that the cases are both available and long lasting. I’ll do some thinking about .38 WCF as well.  Lot’s to think about.
I sure love this forum!!!!!

-Fire N Iron

[Tom Bullweed]

My experience.

Nickel-plated brass normally splits before plain brass.

.45 Colt and .45 Cowboy Specials in Ruger OMVs and Uberti 1860 is good for at least 15 loadings with BP.

.38-40 is good for at least 12 loads: Starline brass in original 1873 and 1892.

Always tumble.  Always soak cases right after shooting.

WCF cartridges have the least amount of blowby.

Mileage may vary.....

[Warden Callaway]

8 minutes ago, Fire N Iron said:

Thanks everyone for your thoughts so far. I really mean the comment about “Hall of knowledge”. I have a ton of respect for the folks here and your knowledge and experience. 
Sounding like I don’t need to worry too much about the brass on .44-40, and that the cases are both available and long lasting. I’ll do some thinking about .38 WCF as well.  Lot’s to think about.
I sure love this forum!!!!!

-Fire N Iron

 

The only problem I have with 44WCF and 38WCF is the limited choices.  Seems like the gun makers think all we need are 357/38 and 45Colt.  

[Cliff Hanger #3720LR]

I was a commercial reloader for many years.

There is a simple trick you can do to help youmake your brass last longer.

It will take some time the first time but save your more later.

 

You must use brass only you have shot through your guns.

Now slowly sitting at a table with micrometer in hand, measure the neck of each cartridge.

As you go, find the smallest diameter case and keep it separated from the other brass.

If you find a smaller neck case move the other case in to the pile and keep this one separate.

 

What you are looking for is the smallest case neck which is shot from the tightest chamber of all your guns.

 

Now use this case to set your sizing die on your press.

This way all cases will feed in all your guns and cases will expand the least each time shot.

This will stop having rounds that was much smaller than the chambers and will expand faster to seal the chambers when fired.

 

I did this to my costomers brass and wrote it down so I knew how to setup for their brass which in most cases was different than the next costmers 44-40 brass.

 

 

 

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

14 minutes ago, Fire N Iron said:

Thanks everyone for your thoughts so far. I really mean the comment about “Hall of knowledge”. I have a ton of respect for the folks here and your knowledge and experience. 
Sounding like I don’t need to worry too much about the brass on .44-40, and that the cases are both available and long lasting. I’ll do some thinking about .38 WCF as well.  Lot’s to think about.
I sure love this forum!!!!!

-Fire N Iron

Question: what do you have for guns currently? Has nothing to do with the answers to your brass question, but it does have me curious. Especially if you are also shooting cap guns, since you did mention you are familiar with them.

[Fire N Iron]

4 minutes ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

Question: what do you have for guns currently? Has nothing to do with the answers to your brass question, but it does have me curious. Especially if you are also shooting cap guns, since you did mention you are familiar with them.

Hi!

I don’t have a complete pair of anything yet LOL.

Pistols:

Ruger Vaquero in .45 Colt.
3 c&b revolvers (‘51 Navy, ‘60 Army, ‘58 Remington with .44 front loader and .45 conversion cylinder).

Shotgun:

I have an original 1890’s Newman Bros SXS external hammer 12 ga. 2-5/8 chambers. I shoot the shotgun with brass shotshells and BP. It came from the factory as a coach gun with 18.2” barrels.

As you can see, a real Hodgepodge. Some of us are late bloomers I guess. I’ve loved shooting these guns for years, never thought about CAS until recently.

I took my 11 yr old boy to Winter Ranger last week. I live 2 hrs away in Flagstaff. We are both hooked. Loved the shooting, and absolutely loved the people!!!

-Matt

 

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

You live in a fine location for CAS.  There are quality matches all year long a days drive in any direction from Flag.  You already discovered Winter Range.  This year the regional in Southern Utah is coming up in April as is California State east of LA and then EOT in New Mexico in June.  New Mexico State is in September in Silver City and Arizona State in October in Tombstone.  Regarding the lifetime of you rifle brass, it won't be as long as you think.  Besides losing some to splits, some of your rifle brass will be lost every match.  Some just finds its way under props and is not found by the brass pickers.  Get your son shooting .22s as soon as you can.  We'd like to see both of you shooting together.  (Chicken George can give you pointers on shooting as a family.)

[Savvy Jack]

Quote

For those of you that shoot .44-40 with BP, what kind of life do you get out of your brass?

 

Infinity and beyond!

 

Quote

I am intimidated by the thin brass on the neck.

As thin as tinfoil!

 

Star-Line, $30 (or less)  for 100...get a few and be done with it till you shoot lost brass matches.

Here is some 44-40 history fir ya!
https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/

 

 

 

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

15 minutes ago, Fire N Iron said:

Hi!

I don’t have a complete pair of anything yet LOL.

Pistols:

Ruger Vaquero in .45 Colt.
3 c&b revolvers (‘51 Navy, ‘60 Army, ‘58 Remington with .44 front loader and .45 conversion cylinder).

Shotgun:

I have an original 1890’s Newman Bros SXS external hammer 12 ga. 2-5/8 chambers. I shoot the shotgun with brass shotshells and BP. It came from the factory as a coach gun with 18.2” barrels.

As you can see, a real Hodgepodge. Some of us are late bloomers I guess. I’ve loved shooting these guns for years, never thought about CAS until recently.

I took my 11 yr old boy to Winter Ranger last week. I live 2 hrs away in Flagstaff. We are both hooked. Loved the shooting, and absolutely loved the people!!!

-Matt

 

That's excellent, and honestly right up my alley. I rarely, if every, shoot a matched pair of revolvers. I never shoot the same caliber pistols and rifle. Sometimes I don't even shoot the same caliber in each of my revolvers. I have been known to shoot a match with 45 colt in one revolver, 44 russian in another, 45 schofield in a third, 44-40 rifle, 38-40 rifle, both 10 and 12 gauge hammered guns, and for the non sass shoot I attend, also an 1876 in 45-60 and/or a trap door in 45-70. All great fun. This year, though, I have sworn to shoot my cap guns the whole year. One is an 1851 with all the work done by Long Hunter, and the other is a Leech and Rigdon. These are my "Blue and Grey" combo. But the rifles could be just about anything, including a Henry I just added to the collection.

 

I will say that if you are looking at a 73 rifle (or even a 66) take a long hard look at the new Winchester models. I have one, and so far it is the only rifle I own that has never given me one single problem. And I have had no work done to it. Bone stock it's slick and smooth, very reliable, pretty fast, shorter stroke than stock Uberti, and by far the better looking gun with real CCH and grade 2/3 wood. Price ends up being close to the same as an Uberti with work done, if not less.

[Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104]

The answer to your question is .......... 44WCF will not split nearly as much as 45 Colt so will last longer.  44WCF brass is more fragile than 45 Colt so care must be taken not to crush them as you learn how to load them.  I salvage stepped on 44WCF brass by using a tapered punch to make the neck round again then size to finish.  Annealing 45 Colt brass will reduce the number of split cases and reduce fouling.  My favorite is 38WCF.  Same case as a 44WCF with more taper.

[Burn Through]

also you can keep on loading a 44-40 when it splits at the neck on the 20th time or so you load it with black ……. I think most folks with 45s would not want to do this ???? it will come out of the gun even if it is split all the way down and that is a big plus 

[Bull Skinner]

I have 3 rifles for CAS, all in 44 WCF. I bought a thousand Starline brass in 2001. They have been reloaded many times and I’m still using them today for BP and Smokeless. Nuff said.

[Texas Shane]

I shoot 3 44WCF pistols and 4 rifles in main match with holy black as well as side match and long range (in a 92 with smokeless). I've only lost a few cases due to cracking and those were the next reload after being deformed (stepped on) during a match. I'm still using the same 300 or so cases I bought 2 years ago, with 600 new, in reserve! My brass is always clean and my actions cleaner after a match, barrels are a whole nuther matter!

[John Boy]

Last count on 44-40 brass by a friend was 16 reloads ... never cleaned also

Have 45 Starlines that go back to 2000 that have been tumbled and resized. 
Al. Are BP reloads

 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Quote

" I see a strong theme of folks loving .44-40 for bp in a lever gun, on the other I worry about the brass longevity/availability. "

 

I've only had a few minor neck splits on .44-40 cases.   Nothing like the whole-case-length splits that I get on .45 Colt.  With BP and good cleaning of the cases to remove the fouling from the brass expediently, you will have PLENTY of case life from .44-40.     And you get better running and cleaner lever guns than with even the soft-annealed .45 Colt cases.

 

So, if you are gung ho for BP, use .44-40 in the rifle!    In pistols, you can keep loading .45 Colt, if you are careful with your loading technique to keep from sticking a .45 Colt into the mag tube of your .44-40 rifle.   THAT makes a big hangup when you try to feed it into the smaller chamber and find it jams the gun up.

 

Order directly from Starline in 500+ quantities and get best price and immediate shipment most of the time!   So, no worries about availability.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Howdy

 

I have been shooting 44-40 in my rifles since I started this game about 20 years ago. After the first year or so I switched over completely to Black Powder.

 

Incidentally, I always shoot 45 Colt in my revolvers. Well, almost always unless I bring a pair of Antique Smith and Wessons chambered for 44 Russian, or my Merwin Hulbert chambered for 44-40. How do I make sure I don't load a 45 Colt into my 44-40 Henry?

 

This is how. Looks like I need to renew the letters on my loading block. You can't see it so well, but my 44-40 rounds have a black stripe across the primer. But if you start talking to me at the loading table I might try to stuff a 45 into my Henry.

 

 

 

 

 

To tell you the truth I can't remember the last time a 45 Colt case split on me, but it must have happened sometime. Probably back in my Smokeless days. My 44-40 brass will occasionally develop small splits at the neck. As long as the split is not more than 1/16" long I will go right ahead and reload it. Longer than 1/16" and I file it in the circular file. I have never had a 44-40 case split other than these short little neck splits.

 

44-40 brass is considerably thinner at the neck than 45 Colt. Usually about .007 thick vs about .012 thick. The thinness is probably why they may tend to split. But as I say, it is not really a big deal, it does not happen very often. Yes, 44-40 brass is more delicate than 45 Colt brass, and a boot stepping on one is more likely to crush it than a 45 Colt. This is a photo of my set up for loading a bunch of 44-40 on my Hornady AP Progressive press. The dummy 50BMG round is my crushed case reconditioner. If a case mouth is a bit out of round, I will insert the nose of the dummy 50BMG round into the case mouth and mash it around a bit to get the case mouth round again. It does not have to be perfect, the plug in the expander die will make it round enough to accept a bullet. However if the case neck has been crushed enough that it has a visible crease, I will throw it away. In this photo I am loading brand-spanky new brass from Starline, so there are not any crushed cases. The dummy 50BMG round always comes out when I am loading 44-40. Incidentally, I have only been buying my brass from Starline the last few years. I used to buy Winchester, but supply was spotty, and I would often find a couple of crushed cases in the bag. A couple of times there was even a couple of 44 Mag cases in a bag of 44-40. I don't buy Winchester brass anymore, Starline has always had it in stock when I ordered. I order it direct, I don't order from a distributor.

 

 

 

 

 

If you are loading 44-40 with Black Powder and firing them in a rifle, it does not really matter how firm the crimp is. The case will be filled with Black Powder that has been compressed about 1/16" - 1/8" when the bullet was seated. (Never leave airspace in a Black Powder cartridge.) With a rifle, the real concern is not so much bullets jumping forward from recoil, it is the bullets telescoping back into the case from the action of the magazine spring slamming all the cartridges back as each round is stripped out of the magazine by the carrier. So basically there is a Black Powder 'plug' in the case that will prevent bullets from telescoping back into the case when they are slammed backwards by the magazine follower. Recoil with a reasonably heavy rifle is minimal, not enough to cause bullets to jump forward. I have a bunch of dummy 44-40 rounds without powder or primer, just a bullet. I use them every once in a while to run through a rifle while checking the action. In that case, without a plug of BP in the case, the bullets do tend to telescope backwards into the case mouth as the follower slams them all backwards after they have been run through the rifle a few times. I never had this problem when shooting Smokeless 44-40 out of a rifle years ago, probably because I only ran them through the action once.

 

We all say, 44-40 is a terrific cartridge for Black Powder. That thin brass at the neck tends to expand and fill the chamber under the relatively low pressure of BP, preventing almost any soot from blowing by into the action. I actually don't own any 45 Colt rifles, but I have seen plenty of gas shooting straight up out of the receivers of 45 Colt rifles, because they were not sealing the chamber so good. The downside of 44-40 is it can be a bit 'fussy' to load, because of the thin brass at the neck. Not difficult, but you have to set your dies pretty perfectly, or you may wind up crushing some necks. In that case, 44-40 is not as forgiving to load as 45 Colt is with it's thicker and more robust brass at the case mouth.

 

You don't want to put too much bell at the mouth of the case with 44-40. Too much bell and you will work harden the brass and that can lead to splits at the case mouth. I put just enough bell on my 44-40 brass mouths that I can barely feel it with my fingers.  Just enough that no lead is shaved as the bullet slides in. The case on the left actually has a bit more bell than I usually apply.

 

 

 

 

 

I learned a trick a long time ago for loading 44-40. I leave a teeny bit of space between the top of the crimp and the underside of the crimp groove in the bullet. Just a few thousandths. What this does is prevent the case mouth from bumping into the lead as it rises in the press and 'swallows' the bullet. If the thin brass at the case neck bumps into the underside of the crimp groove, the .007 thick brass is not rigid enough to bite into the lead. It has to go somewhere, and it will often crumple down below the bullet.

 

 

 

 

 

Like this. Exaggerated a little bit for effect, but as the brass mashed into the underside of the crimp groove it was not sturdy enough to dig into the lead, and it had to go somewhere, so it crumpled under the bullet. Easy enough to set up your dies for this, select a couple of pieces that are the longest, by a couple of thousandths, and set your dies with them. Any shorter brass will automatically have a slightly wider gap. No, I do not trim my brass, it does not grow at the pressures we shoot at. So my brass may vary ever so slightly in overall length.

 

 

 

 

 

That's about all I can think of right now.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

With regards to Driftwood's last picture, I was having that problem with .44-40 and .32-20 far to often for my liking.  No matter how careful I was, I'd always get a handful of rounds with this "defect."   Perhaps not as visually dramatic as the pic, but still enough that the rounds in question might not chamber.

The solution, for me, was instead of trying to seat and crimp with the same die, was to just seat with the one, and then get a Lee Factory Crimp Die to crimp with.   I now do this with all of my bottlenecked cartridges, and the problem has been eliminated.

 

I must stress that this was the perfect solution for ME.   Others may tell you that you don't need the FCD.   Maybe some pards don't.  I just know that for me it solved the problem.   Take it with a grain of salt and then season to taste.

 

And good luck.

 

 

[Fire N Iron]

WOW! I’m blow away by all of the great responses and the years of experience being shared. I can’t thank each of you enough for taking the time to share what you have learned and what has worked for you.  This has got to be the friendliest and most helpful forum out there!

 I am so excited to be getting into such a great sport with so many outstanding folks!

Y’all have helped me make up my mind on the .44-40. I expect over time I will probably get into the other WCF cartridges too. The more I learn the more intrigued I am. 
Thanks pards!!!

-A grateful greenhorn, a.k.a Fire N Iron.