Slick McClade Posted March 11, 2020 Share Posted March 11, 2020 38 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: Interesting. I heard about a "Top Shooter" doing this...I know some side line specifics but not exactly who the shooter was. Seems you have more information then I. But, frankly I'd like to keep the speculation on who this shooter is under wraps as it's not relevant to the discussion. If the shooter wishes to expose themselves to the general population, then fine. We could then discuss all the relevant issues surrounding this incident. Phantom Hmmm, Seems like he must have been on your Posse since you have so much information first hand. Well, I hope you get your answer you’re stirring for. Just kinda seems to me that the world would be a lot cleaner place If people would sweep around their on door step instead of others. Hypothetically of course cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted March 11, 2020 Share Posted March 11, 2020 7 hours ago, doc roy l. pain said: This post has been going on for a week and the best I can get out of it is we have many spotters not doing their job or a less than perfect cowboy not calling a penalty on himself. I think that, for the MOST part, shooters are honorable when it comes to MSV violations... Spotters are often not focused or not in a good location and/or SPOT TOO LONG. The TOs need to rotate and SO DO SPOTTERS. I was TO at a big match recently and a shooter broke the 170 with an open side by side while moving down Range. I saw it, and hollered MUZZLE, looked at spotter who was right near to confirm/let know that I was aware. I let shooter complete the stage to get time. Recorded time, consulted with spotter(s) to be sure I was correct and informed PM, then shooter, the MDs. There was NEVER a question in my mind that I was going to call it. It wasn’t personal...it just happened. I was asked, “Are you going to call it?” “Yes!” Was my answer. I think THAT is a greater problem. Penalties NOT being called by TO and or Spotters because of feelings or whatever...or because it could knock XYZ shooter off the podium or XYQ shooter is my friend or my wife... Conclusion: We are ALL EACH responsible for maintaining the integrity of this sport by doing the right thing and the next right thing! @Slick McClade is a fine example of this and one of many that I try to emulate. Big hugs!! Scarlett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted March 11, 2020 Author Share Posted March 11, 2020 7 minutes ago, Slick McClade said: Hmmm, Seems like he must have been on your Posse since you have so much information first hand. Well, I hope you get your answer you’re stirring for. Just kinda seems to me that the world would be a lot cleaner place If people would sweep around their on door step instead of others. Hypothetically of course cheers I have ZERO idea of what it is you're trying to say. What's your problem with this topic??? Why are you soooo defensive???? No names stated...nothing! But to satisfy your desire for more information (I'm assuming that's what you want since you asked further questions that weren't relevant to the topic). - spoke with someone while driving home from WR...shootin' the Poop... - Tells me of a Top16 shooter that jacked a round out at the ULT (Believe it was Stage 7, but can't be sure if I remembered that detail correctly). - Tells me that they were there (but not part of the posse) - Had later discussions with someone that was on the posse and how they were disappointed with the way this Top16 shooter handled the situation. So now are you going to complain that I'm bringing this topic up??? For why????? It has produced a couple pages of discussion that's been relatively informative (of course mixed in with some silly stuff but hey, it's the Wire). Then you post some weird cryptic statement that pulled in from left field...if you are insinuating that I've got some nefarious action from the past that should cause me to refrain from posting topics concerning other shooter's bad behavior...please...DO TELL! Or..you can just hide behind a silly Smiley Face Icon... Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish ike, SASS #43615 Posted March 11, 2020 Share Posted March 11, 2020 For me all the what if's and could be maybe's are just air being moved around. ULT round jacked out MSV. Then its either P or a miss. Miss for loading 10 and shooting 9. A P for loading 11, not follow the stage instructions. Ike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slick McClade Posted March 11, 2020 Share Posted March 11, 2020 27 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: I have ZERO idea of what it is you're trying to say. What's your problem with this topic??? Why are you soooo defensive???? No names stated...nothing! But to satisfy your desire for more information (I'm assuming that's what you want since you asked further questions that weren't relevant to the topic). - spoke with someone while driving home from WR...shootin' the Poop... - Tells me of a Top16 shooter that jacked a round out at the ULT (Believe it was Stage 7, but can't be sure if I remembered that detail correctly). - Tells me that they were there (but not part of the posse) - Had later discussions with someone that was on the posse and how they were disappointed with the way this Top16 shooter handled the situation. So now are you going to complain that I'm bringing this topic up??? For why????? It has produced a couple pages of discussion that's been relatively informative (of course mixed in with some silly stuff but hey, it's the Wire). Then you post some weird cryptic statement that pulled in from left field...if you are insinuating that I've got some nefarious action from the past that should cause me to refrain from posting topics concerning other shooter's bad behavior...please...DO TELL! Or..you can just hide behind a silly Smiley Face Icon... Phantom Charlie/Phantom, I’m glad you brought up the topic and I in no way thought I was being sooo defensive. I just figured the entire situation needed to be brought to light since the original post didn’t reveal all the information. To bring a little more light to the situation Black Jack Zac (match director) also agreed with the call of a MSV and if my memory serves me right he even thanked me for reporting the MSV and changing the score after the fact. If this doesn’t speak about my honesty and integrity and my actions towards the game and life in general then I’m not sure you’ll ever be convinced. This will be my last comment on the topic. Cheers Slick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Iron Patnode SASS 60632 Posted March 11, 2020 Share Posted March 11, 2020 20 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said: For me all the what if's and could be maybe's are just air being moved around. ULT round jacked out MSV. Then its either P or a miss. Miss for loading 10 and shooting 9. A P for loading 11, not follow the stage instructions. Ike No penalty for overloading a rifle! Loads 11 leaves one on the carrier, MSV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted March 11, 2020 Share Posted March 11, 2020 50 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said: For me all the what if's and could be maybe's are just air being moved around. ULT round jacked out MSV. Then its either P or a miss. Miss for loading 10 and shooting 9. A P for loading 11, not follow the stage instructions. Ike There hasn't been a penalty (of any kind) for "overloading" a rifle since 2011...up until then it was a MSV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted March 11, 2020 Author Share Posted March 11, 2020 46 minutes ago, Slick McClade said: Charlie/Phantom, I’m glad you brought up the topic and I in no way thought I was being sooo defensive. I just figured the entire situation needed to be brought to light since the original post didn’t reveal all the information. To bring a little more light to the situation Black Jack Zac (match director) also agreed with the call of a MSV and if my memory serves me right he even thanked me for reporting the MSV and changing the score after the fact. If this doesn’t speak about my honesty and integrity and my actions towards the game and life in general then I’m not sure you’ll ever be convinced. This will be my last comment on the topic. Cheers Slick There was ZERO reason for you to interject yourself into this issue...it was being discussed quite well without the added info. The light that you exposed was personal and not needed... Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirk James Posted March 11, 2020 Share Posted March 11, 2020 It is the responsibility of the ULT officer or shooter if there is not a ULT officer to report the information to the TO and they will seek the information necessary to make the appropriate call. Based on information given, the call is a MSV. I do not believe any more needs to be done. We should all shoot by the same rules. If a shooter thinks he missed a target and the spotters call him clean is he obligated to protest? If the shooter is sure he hit all the targets but a miss is called, is he obligated to protest? In my opinion, this was handled correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted March 11, 2020 Share Posted March 11, 2020 On 3/3/2020 at 10:30 AM, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: Shooter kicks out a live round at the unloading table...from their rifle. Calls a MSV... Should that person also call a 5 sec penalty for the unfired round??? Or do we just assume that they loaded one too many rounds at the loading table. Hmmmm.... Phantom On 3/3/2020 at 10:47 AM, Barry Sloe said: For me, it's just the MSV. If only 9 shots were fired, the TO & Spotters should have noted it - no call on that. BS On 3/3/2020 at 10:58 AM, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: Yes they should have...but didn't...for what ever reason. So this is the "Cowboy" way? Interesting... So you somehow know what the call should have been, even though you weren't there? On 3/3/2020 at 1:25 PM, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: Yeah...I do know. Trust me. There was no overloading. It's becoming typical of this game...the trophy is "God"... So even though you weren't there you KNOW that there was no overloading. How? On 3/3/2020 at 9:59 PM, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: This will probably be the only time I respond to an inquiry from you. Bringing up the "Cowboy Way" was in reference to the shooter and not anyone else on the posse...I'm sorry that wasn't obvious. Seems like you're definitely not making a hypothetical here, you're referring to a specific incident and clearly implying that someone acted dishonorably. 12 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: I have ZERO idea of what it is you're trying to say. So now are you going to complain that I'm bringing this topic up??? For why????? It has produced a couple pages of discussion that's been relatively informative (of course mixed in with some silly stuff but hey, it's the Wire). Phantom Hmm. Bring up a 'hypothetical' add enough later to make it clear you're referring to something that actually happened. Imply a SASS shooter did something dishonorable to your 'certain' knowledge. Get all offended because someone questioned whether you should have done it? I think the concern isn't about you bringing up a hypothetical, it's about you slamming another shooter without quite naming him, but with enough information that many people who were at the match know exactly who you're talking about. The Cowboy way? The irony here is very, very rich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted March 11, 2020 Author Share Posted March 11, 2020 56 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said: So you somehow know what the call should have been, even though you weren't there? So even though you weren't there you KNOW that there was no overloading. How? Seems like you're definitely not making a hypothetical here, you're referring to a specific incident and clearly implying that someone acted dishonorably. Hmm. Bring up a 'hypothetical' add enough later to make it clear you're referring to something that actually happened. Imply a SASS shooter did something dishonorable to your 'certain' knowledge. Get all offended because someone questioned whether you should have done it? I think the concern isn't about you bringing up a hypothetical, it's about you slamming another shooter without quite naming him, but with enough information that many people who were at the match know exactly who you're talking about. The Cowboy way? The irony here is very, very rich. See...this is why I don't come onto the Wire much anymore. Too many people think they have some crazy high IQ that allows them to see something that ain't there. Again, I'm done playing with a bunch of folks that read a crap load of stuff into other's posts that ain't there...and reeeeeeally need to grow up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted March 11, 2020 Share Posted March 11, 2020 7 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: See...this is why I don't come onto the Wire much anymore. Too many people think they have some crazy high IQ that allows them to see something that ain't there. Again, I'm done playing with a bunch of folks that read a crap load of stuff into other's posts that ain't there...and reeeeeeally need to grow up. Well.....bye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted March 11, 2020 Author Share Posted March 11, 2020 1 minute ago, Captain Bill Burt said: Well.....bye. Oh...I'm not leaving your life...little buddy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted March 11, 2020 Share Posted March 11, 2020 7 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: Oh...I'm not leaving your life...little buddy. My hearts aflutter! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted March 11, 2020 Share Posted March 11, 2020 And this is why I keep coming back to the Wire... free entertainment! On 3/3/2020 at 10:15 AM, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said: Was the rifle the last gun fired (bad stage design) ... `There's a world of difference between "bad stage design" and "not recommended." I've shot many a stage where the rifle was last, and added something to the stage design... The TO, actual physical stage construction, and good equipment negate the effect the length of the rifle and our sometimes borderline powered loads have on scoring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 Posted March 11, 2020 Share Posted March 11, 2020 5 minutes ago, Griff said: And this is why I keep coming back to the Wire... free entertainment! `There's a world of difference between "bad stage design" and "not recommended." I've shot many a stage where the rifle was last, and added something to the stage design... The TO, actual physical stage construction, and good equipment negate the effect the length of the rifle and our sometimes borderline powered loads have on scoring. Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to be able to put the rifle at the end of many of the stages I write, but with what you mentioned above, it is "not recommended" as you said. My bad, I'll choose my words more carefully. But if you write stages in a way that makes it difficult for the TO, no matter the reason; I see it as bad stage design... MY opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted March 11, 2020 Share Posted March 11, 2020 1 minute ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said: Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to be able to put the rifle at the end of many of the stages I write, but with what you mentioned above, it is "not recommended" as you said. My bad, I'll choose my words more carefully. But if you write stages in a way that makes it difficult for the TO, no matter the reason; I see it as bad stage design... MY opinion. I don't disagree with you; but, when you have fairly compact, enclosed on 3 sides stage bays, (floor, back wall & roof), the rifle report is usually enhanced enough that the better timers will easily pick it up. I've not found it to be the significant problem it is out in wide open bays on windy days... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairtrigger Hayes Posted March 11, 2020 Share Posted March 11, 2020 I’ll throw in my 2 cents. The situation that created incident that led to this post was noticed by me. At the time I was not a spotter and I was not the TO. I went to the ULT and asked. Sure enough, extra round. ULT officer thought I was going to make the call and I assumed the UTL officer made the call. When it was discovered that no call was made the shooter went to the Match Director and requested the penalty be added, pretty honorable in my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Hombre Sin Nombre Posted March 11, 2020 Share Posted March 11, 2020 1 hour ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said: Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to be able to put the rifle at the end of many of the stages I write, but with what you mentioned above, it is "not recommended" as you said. My bad, I'll choose my words more carefully. But if you write stages in a way that makes it difficult for the TO, no matter the reason; I see it as bad stage design... MY opinion. Off topic here, but when we are for the most part prohibited from ending a stage with an entire 1/3rd of our arsenal (again it's not everywhere that prohibits it) then to me that's a problem that can and should be addressed. Perhaps requiring a slightly higher power factor in order to register that rifle might be something TG's can look at in the future. I know it's all part of the game, but when I can see bullets leaving a rifle and follow them all the way to the target, it feels like we are heading in the wrong direction. Just my thoughts. Then again, if the no lead bill passes in California, we might all be using light loaded wax or some other type of bullet that will be easily seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 Posted March 11, 2020 Share Posted March 11, 2020 I hear ya EHSN, I'd like to use rifle last on a lot of stages but I don't (well, maybe once in a blue moon). And I hate that we have come to visible flight paths for our bullets (yes I know, not everyone). But how would we police it? Check PF before every match? Not very practical and a huge pain in the rump. Oh yeah... and the Cali powers that be can kiss my rump. Won't live there anymore and I'll fight with all I have to keep it from happening here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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