45 colt - Unique or Bullseye

[heckofagator]

I have a new 1873 and just got my Bear Creek 205gr bullets in.  I have been reading and while Trail Boss seems to be most recommended, all i have is Unique, Bullseye and Hp38.

 

doing some reading, unique and bullseye seems to be popular but unique is dirty and bullseye uses such a low volume of powder compared to the case.

 

i’m tempted to just load up some unique so i can go try out the new 1873, but just curious which powder all of you would choose.  If unique, i was thinking something around 7.5-8.5gr seems to be pretty midrange.  I’d like to stay lighter if at all possible.

[Mild Bill #2326]

Study your loading manual for the powders and bullet weight you have, and make comparisons. Load a number of  rounds using each powder.

Then seated at a bench and resting the rifle, carefully aim and fire from the distance you will normally shoot. You will find your answer. Do not make the charges too light, as recoil will not be a factor. 

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Bullseye will work, but as you mention it will not fill the case much.

 

Both Unique and HP38 will work well.  For cowboy, i would start with 6.o grains of HP 38.

See Cowboy loads on:

http://www.reloadammo.com/reload.htm

 

Unique can be a little dirtier but work very well.  I would start with 7.0 grains to see how that feels for you.

[Trooper Ozzy]

8 gr unique with a normal crimp

[Michigan Slim]

If you ever have to choose one powder in a Cowboy load make it Unique. It will do EVERYTHING.

 

[ShadowCatcher]

I used to load with Trail Boss, but recently (last few years) I switched to shooting Colt's, which all have cylinder throats at .454" (measured by pushing soft 458 lead slugs through).

 

I did a reloading experiment using Trail Boss, Unique, WW31, and Bullseye.  I was looking to get around 730 f/s from the 7 1/2 inch barrel and the tightest grouping possible

with a 250 gr LRNFP sized .454.

 

I turned out that 6.7 grains of Unique satisfied all the check boxes for my three pistols. 

 

Bullseye is usable, but very low volume, as all the others are also, excepting Trail Boss which does fill the case fairly well.

 

Hope this helps,

Shadow Catcher

 

 

[Hoss]

Bullseye will work well. Lots of recipes. Yes it is low volume in the case, but it works well. Not temp sensitive. 

[Jasper Agate]

When not filling up cases with BP its 7.5 grains of unique or ww231 for me.

                               JA

[Johnson County Mike]

Hi, I use the   RCBS  "Little Dandy" powder measure and Unique meters better  than Bullseye. What you say is true it's dirty and fills up the case. Filling up the case is a plus for me, YMMV. regards, Mike

[heckofagator]

Thanks all.  Think I'll try the Unique for now and see about getting some Trail boss.  And I was just at the gun show too..... Could have probably picked some up there

[Duffield, SASS #23454]

Another problem that can be solved with 7 grains of Unique!

 

Duffield

[Muley Gil SASS # 57795]

I started reloading .45 Colt when I got my OM Ruger Blackhawk in 1973. I have used anywhere from 7.5 grains to 10.0 grains of Unique. 7.5 grains makes a good plinking load, 8.5 grains duplicates factory loads and 10.0, in a full sized Blackhawk, is a good stout load.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

No to BE. Temperature sensitivity any lot to lot variations can vary widely. 

Go with Unique  or WW231/HP38

Use a firm rool crimp.

OLG 

[bgavin]

Unique has a broader profile, i.e. more area under the pressure curve than HP38/Win 231.
It fills about 47% of the case volume, compared to 35% for Win 231.
Unique does not burn all its powder before the bullet exits the revolver muzzle.
It's burn rate is every similar to Win 231.

Trailboss in between these and Bullseye for burn rate.
It fills the case some 88% and burns 100% before muzzle exit.
It also is fastest pressure drop after ignition.
 

[Bad Bascomb, SASS # 47,494]

  All the above being said, with which I agree, when I began in CAS I was using your same bullet and 5.5 gr BE for rifle and 3.5 gr for pistol.  It was all I had at the time.  It worked well.

[heckofagator]

So just to confirm, is Trail Boss the most widely used and popular powder for cowboy 45 colt loads, if you had a pick from any of the common avail powders? 

[Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104]

4 minutes ago, heckofagator said:

So just to confirm, is Trail Boss the most widely used and popular powder for cowboy 45 colt loads, if you had a pick from any of the common avail powders? 

Trail Boss has a unique cult following but has its own quirks.  Mostly folks use it who are afraid of double charging a case.  I don't and won't use it for personal reasons. 

 

My prefered choice is 35 grains (by volume) of FFG Black Powder but then you were asking about the heathenist smokeless powders that are only a passing fad anyway. 

 

Prior to enlightenment, I used 6.5 grs of Unique under a 200 gr slug.  Unique is one of the most versatile powders on the market that can do almost anything.  It isn't temperature sensitive or large case sensitive.  Yes, it's a bit dirty but then so is Trail Boss.  Anneal your cases, do a firm roll crimp, and your action will stay much cleaner.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

1 hour ago, heckofagator said:

So just to confirm, is Trail Boss the most widely used and popular powder for cowboy 45 colt loads, if you had a pick from any of the common avail powders? 

No

I load all of our CAS ammo(including SG)with Unique. 

OLG 

[Prof. Fuller Bullspit]

I had good luck with Trail Boss (and I always loaded it to the recommenced level, not a light load) except in really cold weather I found it to be temperature sensitive. It never failed to ignite nor did it fail to get the bullet to the target, but it did not generate full pressure/velocity. I would still use it as a summer load, but as others have mentioned, if I only had one powder it would be Unique.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

1 hour ago, bgavin said:

Unique has a broader profile, i.e. more area under the pressure curve than HP38/Win 231.
It fills about 47% of the case volume, compared to 35% for Win 231.
Unique does not burn all its powder before the bullet exits the revolver muzzle.
It's burn rate is every similar to Win 231.

Trailboss in between these and Bullseye for burn rate.
It fills the case some 88% and burns 100% before muzzle exit.
It also is fastest pressure drop after ignition.
 

 

WW231/HP38 is faster than Unique.  

TB is much faster than 231.

OLG 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

1 hour ago, heckofagator said:

is Trail Boss the most widely used and popular powder for cowboy 45 colt loads

It's certainly the most expensive of the smokeless powders.  Folks seem to be willing to pay to see the level of powder in a case.   I use an RCBS powder lock-out die for that, because it checks every single case load, and never forgets one.

 

Red Dot is one of the best cowboy powders.    Clays and Clay Dot also right in there.

 

If we knew what everybody shot, we'd probably find Clays at the top for Cowboy loads.

 

Good luck, GJ 

[Hoss]

30 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

No

I load all of our CAS ammo(including SG)with Unique. 

OLG 

Lumpy puts Unique on his grits instead of pepper!

 

yes Unique works very well for most CAS loads. Very versatile powder.  Trail Boss only advantage is it is impossible to double charge a case. But it cost 2-3 times what Unique or Bullseye. Poofy loads. 

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

Don't be too concerned about the cleanliness of your powders.  CAS does not use finicky semi-autos that run best clean.  Our guns run fine burning much dirtier BP subs.   Of the powders you have on hand, Unique is my first choice.  I prefer to load BE only in handgun rounds.  I use Trail Boss for 30-30 long range rounds.  I really like it for that particular application.  However, it is too pricey for my main match ammunition.

[heckofagator]

Thanks all.  Yeah, totally fine to stay with unique for the loads as long as its the right one.  all things equal, i guess Id take the full case After charging with Trail Boss but If its a bunch more $, i guess i will have to consider that too.

 

planning just to stick with hp38 on the 38 vaqueros.

[Trailrider #896]

I will admit that I haven't shot Unique in years...not since I started using Hodgdon's Universal in my .44-40 loads. I understand that the latest incarnations of Unique burns cleaner.  IIRC, Hodgdon's recommends a maximum load of 7.5 gr of Universal behind a 205 gr. .44-40 bullet.  I use 8.0 gr. of Universal behind 213.5 gr .430" hardcast bullets in my tight-throated OM Vaqueros for 950 ft/sec. Before lower back problems made me have problems with the muzzle-heaviness, I fired over 3,000 rounds of this load in a Navy Arms M1860 Henry rifles, with NO increase in headspace measured.

 

But, I would have no problem going back to 8.0 gr. Unique, if I couldn't get Universal.  Same load of 8.0 gr. Unique behind a 250 gr .45 caliber bullet has been "standard" for years.  Can you double-charge these loads? Sure. But you just need to check you cases before seating the bullets.  Unique and Universal fill the cases better than Bullseye.  Trail Boss is more expensive and is temperature sensitive.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

44 minutes ago, Hoss said:

Lumpy puts Unique on his grits instead of pepper!

 

yes Unique works very well for most CAS loads. Very versatile powder.  Trail Boss only advantage is it is impossible to double charge a case. But it cost 2-3 times what Unique or Bullseye. Poofy loads. 

 

And my eggs. 

It's way better than pepper ever was. 

OP-You do know that HP38 and WW231 are the same powder?

OLG 

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

2 hours ago, Prof. Fuller Bullspit said:

I had good luck with Trail Boss (and I always loaded it to the recommenced level, not a light load) except in really cold weather I found it to be temperature sensitive. It never failed to ignite nor did it fail to get the bullet to the target, but it did not generate full pressure/velocity. I would still use it as a summer load, but as others have mentioned, if I only had one powder it would be Unique.

Haven’t seen you on the Wire in eons, Professor. Welcome back!

[Levi Astorbilt]

Bullseye has worked well for me for the past 16 years in both 45 LC and .38 Spcl. It's kinda dirty, but there's a lot of room for crud in the 1873.

You'll get a lot of bang for the buck as I get 1,555 rounds per pound with my loads.

[Prof. Fuller Bullspit]

37 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

Haven’t seen you on the Wire in eons, Professor. Welcome back!

Thanks! Good to be back!

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

21 minutes ago, Levi Astorbilt said:

Bullseye has worked well for me for the past 16 years in both 45 LC and .38 Spcl. It's kinda dirty, but there's a lot of room for crud in the 1873.

You'll get a lot of bang for the buck as I get 1,555 rounds per pound with my loads.

Just what are these loads you use? There should be 2 different counts for those 2 calibers. 

I get 1750 rnds of 38 Special and 1076 rnds of .44 @ LB of Unique .

 

OLG 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

1 minute ago, Prof. Fuller Bullspit said:

Thanks! Good to be back!

 

Does this mean you made parole then? 

Ima Schofield says HI, too.

OLG 

[Slow Mo Dern]

Hi Gator,

 

     I agree with Garrison Joe.

 

     I use Trail Boss because it's hassle-free and it's what I call "idiot proof"  but if I was to load .45LC - I would use Clays.

 

     It's fluffy, similar to Trail Boss but more economical.

 

     Mo

[Prof. Fuller Bullspit]

10 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

 

Does this mean you made parole then? 

Ima Schofield says HI, too.

OLG 

Well it wasn’t for good behavior. Hi back to her!

[Cholla Hill Tirador]

5 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

It's certainly the most expensive of the smokeless powders.  Folks seem to be willing to pay to see the level of powder in a case.   I use an RCBS powder lock-out die for that, because it checks every single case load, and never forgets one.

 

Red Dot is one of the best cowboy powders.    Clays and Clay Dot also right in there.

 

If we knew what everybody shot, we'd probably find Clays at the top for Cowboy loads.

 

Good luck, GJ 

 

  ^^^^^This, exactly. IMR Cheerios Trail Boss is quite expensive, but lots of folks like it.

 

  Unique is a fantastic, versatile handgun powder and I keep lots of it on hand. But its forte in cartridges such as the .44 Special and 45 Colt is for medium to medium-high range loads. When you start reducing charges to below 7.0 grs or so in the 45 Colt, thereby lowering chamber pressures, you get really sooty brass.

 

   Red Dot and 700-X are my go-to powders for mid to lower range loads in the 45 Colt. Loading 6.5 grs. of either powder and a 250-255 gr. yields 830-850 fps and get you almost 1100 rounds from a pound of powder. I've only a modicum of experience with 200 gr bullets in the 45 Colt. I tried a few of them but they shot way too low compared to 250 gr bullets at the same velocity.

 

 CHT

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Howdy

 

As originally conceived around 1873, 45 Colt brass was designed to hold around 40 grains of Black Powder. Experts (including me) differ on exactly how much it would hold but it was around 40 grains of Black Powder.

 

Pound for pound, Black Powder is far less energetic than most modern Smokeless powders. So in order to achieve the classic velocity of 800 fps out of a revolver barrel with Smokeless Powder, and also so as not to blow up the gun, a much smaller volume of Smokeless powder was needed. This meant that there was a large amount of air space in the cartridge when loaded with just about any Smokeless powder. With such a large cartridge case, and a lot of air space, ignition could be inconsistent, and so could pressure. Particularly in this game where many shooters are trying to duplicate 38 Special ballistics with the 45 Colt cartridge. It just does not respond very well to light loads.

 

That is why Unique has always been my first choice with Smokeless powders for all 'pistol length' cartridges. A respectable charge of Unique will leave less air space in the cartridge than many other powders, particularly Bullseye. Look in any standard loading manual and you will see that the number of grains of Bullseye will always be less than the number of grains of Unique, for the same bullet. Some look at that from an economic standpoint and figure they will get more loads from a pound of Bullseye than they will from a pound of Unique. I look at it from the opposite perspective. My standard charge of Unique will just about fill the case a bit more than halfway. If I was to not be paying attention and accidentally double charge a case with Unique, it would probably over flow, which I would hopefully be wide awake enough to notice. Not sure what would happen with a double charge of Bullseye, whether it would overflow or not, but it sure would not be a healthy load.

 

Regarding Unique being 'dirty', I always ask, 'Who Cares?' What is the obsession with 'clean burning' powders? Are we shooting sensitive semi-autos that might bind up from a little bit of soot? Those who think Unique is dirty ought to try Black Powder some time if they want to see a 'dirty' powder. Yes, back when I was regularly shooting Smokeless and my cases came out a little bit sooty, I never had a revolver or a lever rifle bind up or fail to function because of a little bit of soot on the brass.

 

For what it's worth, my standard Smokeless 45 Colt load was 7.5 grains of Unique under a 250 grain bullet. You always knew if you hit the target, and recoil in a revolver was smart, but certainly nothing compared to the recoil from Magnum loads.

 

Regarding Trail Boss, it was invented specifically because of the issue of large capacity in cartridge cases such as 45 colt. With the tendency of many CAS shooters to load down the large cartridge cases, Trail Boss was created specifically to take up more volume in the big old cases such as 45 Colt.  This is a photo of a small pile of Trail Boss on the left and a small pile of Unique on the right. No they are not the same amount, the purpose of the photo is to show the large, 'fluffy' dounut shape of Trail Boss grains compared to the size of the grains of Unique. That's why Trailboss takes up so much more space in a case, because the grains are fluffier.

 

 

 

 

 

 Why is Trailboss more expensive than Unique? For one thing you only get 9 ounces in a bottle. That is how much will fit in a bottle that will hold a pound of most other powders. Even though the bottles are a different shape, Unique is always sold by the pound as are most powders made by Alliant.

 

 

 

 

 

Here is an interesting photo I just found on my hard drive. Apparently I took this photo in 2008. Two  pieces of 44 Special brass. The one on the left has Trail Boss inside, the one on the right has Clays inside. No idea now what the actual charges were, but I would have put the correct charges for one of my 44 Special loads in each case. See how much more space the Trail Boss takes up than the Clays? That is why Trail Boss was invented.

 

 

 

 

 

By the way, many uninformed shooters think Trail Boss is a Black Powder substitute because of the name.

 

It is not.

 

7 hours ago, heckofagator said:

So just to confirm, is Trail Boss the most widely used and popular powder for cowboy 45 colt loads, if you had a pick from any of the common avail powders? 

 

Absolutely no idea. No idea where that idea came from.