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Stage instructions:

 

Dump five rounds on target 1, then dump five rounds on target 2.

 

What happened:

 

Shooter successfully hits target 1 with rounds 1-5. While proceeding to dump the next 5 rounds the shooter has a hiccup with their rifle. Thinking they jacked out a round during the hiccup, with catlike reflexes, the shooter instinctively grabbed a round off their person, loaded the round, and misses the second target.

 

The three spotters were all in agreement, without any doubt, that the shooter hit the first target with 5 rounds, and the second with 5 - that the shooter did not jack out a round - and that the 11th round fired was a miss.

 

WTC?

 

Would the call change if the last round fired HIT the target?

 

Edited by Branchwater Jack SASS #88854

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I'm in and my bet goes to NO CALL

 

Definitely no miss and no advantage and I can also see no P. Same if he'd hit the target with 11th round.

 

Equanimous

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First scenario.. I'm in the no call camp..

Shooter just lost himself some time..:wacko:

 

If he'd hit the 11th. Target..

I see a Procedural for not following stage instructions ..

 

Rance ;)

Just my thinkin:huh: 

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No call either way. No competitive  advantage.

 

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You can load an 11th round in a rifle but it can't be used in the string and must be ejected at the end of the rifle string to avoid a penalty.

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I'm with the Major on this one. Procedural for firing 11 rounds, Doesn't matter where it went.

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I read the OP as he fired his ten rounds initially loaded, then reloaded one round when the rifle was empty and fired and missed.   At no point did he have the rifle overloaded for the stage instructions.   But, although he thought he needed a jacked-out-round-makeup shot, he in fact did not NEED to load and fire the last round.

 

The rules do not specify what penalty is avoided by ejecting rather than firing an extra round, as far as I can find. 

 

I've seen it called "use of illegally acquired ammunition".   BUT - It's not "illegally acquired ammunition" per this definition at the end of the Shooter's Handbook:

 

Quote

Illegally acquired ammunition – ammo NOT carried to the line or staged by the shooter in an approved manner.

 

He CARRIED the 11th round to the line legally - in a reload strip.    Does this definition need to be expanded?

 

The usual call I've seen made on this is that the shooter gained no advantage by loading and firing one extra round, and fulfilled the stage instructions with his first 10 rounds, and so whether he hit or did not hit a rifle target with that round, the usual call has been "No Call".

 

I believe it is time to establish if there is a specific penalty that should (or should not) be awarded if the shooter fires too many rounds!

 

Here's another scenario where shooter might fire too many rounds.   Instructions: dump nine rounds alternating on two targets.   Shooter loads 9, believes he jacked out one, reloads one at the end and hits all targets.   Spotters point out he fired 10 total rounds and hit all ten targets.

 

Firing too few rounds is never a P itself.  It's only a miss for a round not fired.  Why would firing one more round than required be awarded a P ("twice" as much penalty as a miss)?        Shotgun shells being fired as make-ups for misses are not penalized if a double-barrel shooter fires both rounds at a target, even if the first make-up shot took the target down.    Just the time to fire the extra round is his "penalty."

 

So, with the rules not being fully specific enough at this point to say what the call should be, and applying Benefit of the Doubt to the shooter's actions, I'd say No Call per our current rules, whether a hit or a miss.    The time it took to reload and fire was his penalty.  

 

And THAT could have been avoided if the TO understood what was happening and had called out "Don't Reload, the string is finished."

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708
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1 hour ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

The usual call I've seen made on this is that the shooter gained no advantage by loading and firing one extra round, and fulfilled the stage instructions with his first 10 rounds, and so whether he hit or did not hit a rifle target with that round, the usual call has been "No Call".

 

I believe it is time to establish if there is a specific penalty that should (or should not) be awarded if the shooter fires too many rounds!

 

 

I wouldn't fight an established penalty here but I wouldn't support one either.  As you correctly pointed out, the shooter was already penalized the time it took to reload and fire the extra, unneeded round.  Any additional penalty would be piling on.....................................in my ever so humble opinion. :D

Edited by Shooting Bull

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45 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

I wouldn't fight an established penalty here but I wouldn't support one either.  As you correctly pointed out, the shooter was already penalized the time it took to reload and fire the extra, unneeded round.  Any additional penalty would be piling on.....................................in my ever so humble opinion. 

 

Yes, I agree with "no penalty needed" AND I also suggest a rule clarification that says that's the rule - extra shots fired earn no penalty, and the effects of extra shots are never counted as hits.   Extra shots must be fired in a safe direction.

 

If we don't establish the rule, then folks want to pile on P's and illegally acquired ammo penalties (as seen above and in matches I've been at).

 

Good luck, GJ

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I'm curious. For all of you calling a P, what section of the Shooter's Handbook justifies the call? I didn't find anything.

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You can't have a specific rule for everything.   The rules are long and complicated as it is.

 

The procedure calls for loading 10 and shooting 10.  He loaded 11 and shot 11.  He failed to follow the stage instructions.  

 

If you don't follow the stage instructions, it's a procedural.

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49 minutes ago, Null N. Void said:

You can't have a specific rule for everything.   The rules are long and complicated as it is.

 

I would suggest that there needs to be at least one written rule for each penalty that the shoot can earn.   Otherwise, we are pretty free to assign penalties without reason and without consistency.   I believe we CAN (and should) have a rule that governs how each penalty is to be assigned.   

 

And we have no rule that declares an extra round loaded and fired is a Procedural.    We do have a rule that NOT FIRING ENOUGH shots is a round (or rounds) not fired, each counted as only a Miss.  

 

Currently rules declare that these items are Procedural penalties:
 

Quote

 

- Failure to attempt to fire a firearm, engage a prop, or perform a stage maneuver.

- Shooting targets in the wrong order.
- Engaging the stage in the wrong order.
- Use of illegally acquired ammunition.
- Not returning revolvers to leather (unless otherwise specified).
- First offense in the same match for “shooting out of category.”

 

Page 22 and 23 of the Shooter's Handbook

 

There is no mention of firing more shots than instructed being a Procedural.    If it should be on there, let's add it to the list.  If it's not on the list, let's not penalize a shooter without written reason.    I don't see any safety concerns from firing extra shots, as we allow shotgun makeups to be fired with extra shots beyond what actually is needed.   

 

Good luck, GJ

 

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The only P that I can see as a possibility is pg. 22, shooting targets in the wrong order. Except they were shot in the correct order and one extra shot that missed. Did that miss cause the P? (NO)

There is no penalty for overloading the rifle.

The only applicable rule seems to be FAILURE TO ENGAGE/SPIRIT OF THE GAME.

              Willfully shooting a stage other than the way it was intended in order to gain a
              competitive advantage (Spirit of the Game).

Because there was no competitive advantage, no penalty.

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I believe the issue is not whether it was an advantage or not.  The scenario called for 10 rounds loaded and 10 rounds fired.  By loading and firing the 11th round, technically it did not follow the constraints of the scenario.   Right, wrong or indifferent, it would be a P. 

 

 

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OK, so where is this rule in the handbook or RO1 or RO2 or a rules clarification?

Maybe it's there and I haven't found it. But if it's not there then it's an opinion and not a rule.

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55 minutes ago, Bubba Bear, SASS #26793L said:

By loading and firing the 11th round, technically it did not follow the constraints of the scenario.   Right, wrong or indifferent, it would be a P. 

 

Using that logic, loading and firing only 9 would be a P also.   But we know by the rules that such an error is only a "round not fired counted as a Miss".

 

Good luck, GJ

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10-SECOND PENALTIES 10-second penalties include “Procedural” (P) penalties and Minor Safety Violations (MSV).  Procedural errors are simple, unintentional mistakes made as a result of “brain fade” or confusion, where the competitor engages the stage in a way other than how it was intended.  Procedural penalties cannot exceed one per stage.  This is at bottom of page 22

 

Unfired round penalty is specifically spelled out.  Doesn't apply for comparison.  If stage called for 10 rifle rounds did the shooter follow stage instructions?

 

Whiskey

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I found this while answering another WTC:

 

Quote

Should the shooter fire more rounds than called for in the stage, it would be a “P” for using ammunition that was illegally acquired.

Here:

http://www.oowss.com/Overloading the rifle -- PWB.pdf

 

My thought is that while it is legal ammo it is considered "illegaly acquired" because it is not following stage intructions of 10 rounds; extra round would be illegal.

 

The call is a P.

 

Edited by Tyrel Cody

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2 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Currently rules declare that these items are Procedural penalties:
 

Quote

 

- Failure to attempt to fire a firearm, engage a prop, or perform a stage maneuver.

- Shooting targets in the wrong order.
- Engaging the stage in the wrong order.
- Use of illegally acquired ammunition.
- Not returning revolvers to leather (unless otherwise specified).
- First offense in the same match for “shooting out of category.”

 

Page 22 and 23 of the Shooter's Handbook

 

If the list you quoted is an all inclusive list of the items that warrant awarding a Procedural Penalty, then what basis do we have for awarding a penalty for shooting a firearm from the wrong location?

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I think it oughta be a no call. 

 

But I believe as you described it, it's a P for loading too many rounds. 

If the shooter had hit with round 11, still just a P. 

If the shooter had missed a different shot (lets say 8 for the sake of argument) and hit with shot 11, a miss and a P. 

If the shooter had loaded and then jacked out the round, no call.  I don't think it matters whether the rifle was empty when he reloaded or not.  I only mention that because when I first read your scenario, I thought he had reloaded in the middle of the second 5 shots. 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

If the list you quoted is an all inclusive list of the items that warrant awarding a Procedural Penalty, then what basis do we have for awarding a penalty for shooting a firearm from the wrong location?

- Engaging the stage in the wrong order.
 

I think this encompasses moving to locations. For example a stage may say, “move to table and engage rifle targets”. Moving to the table is part of the order. 

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5 minutes ago, Riverboat Red, SASS #71733 said:

- Engaging the stage in the wrong order.
 

I think this encompasses moving to locations. For example a stage may say, “move to table and engage rifle targets”. Moving to the table is part of the order. 

 

If what you say is true...

Then how does the following not cover firing 11 rounds at a series of targets that only calls for 10?

 

Quote

Shooting targets in the wrong order.

 

Especially considering that the competitor engaged the stage in a way other than how it was intended...

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3 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

If the list you quoted is an all inclusive list of the items that warrant awarding a Procedural Penalty, then what basis do we have for awarding a penalty for shooting a firearm from the wrong location?

 

Shows that the list is missing ANOTHER reason that a Procedural penalty can be earned.  ;) 

 

I really do think it's time we get accurate when the rules list a set of items that apply to a rule.  So that the rule book reads well without having an interpreter sitting next to you.

 

Good luck, GJ

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On 2/25/2020 at 7:44 AM, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

Stage instructions:

Dump five rounds on target 1, then dump five rounds on target 2.

What happened:

Shooter successfully hits target 1 with rounds 1-5. While proceeding to dump the next 5 rounds the shooter has a hiccup with their rifle. Thinking they jacked out a round during the hiccup, with catlike reflexes, the shooter instinctively grabbed a round off their person, loaded the round, and misses the second target.

The three spotters were all in agreement, without any doubt, that the shooter hit the first target with 5 rounds, and the second with 5 - that the shooter did not jack out a round - and that the 11th round fired was a miss.

WTC?

Would the call change if the last round fired HIT the target?

Quote

10-SECOND PENALTIES
10-second penalties include “Procedural” (P) penalties and Minor Safety Violations (MSV).
Procedural errors are simple, unintentional mistakes made as a result of “brain fade” or
confusion, where the competitor engages the stage in a way other than how it was intended.

Procedural penalties cannot exceed one per stage.

SHB, Ver.24, page 22, (EMPHASIS added).   Did the shooter engage the stage as it was written, disregarding how the stage writer intended?  A decision point missing on the Miss/Flow Chart.  But, one that the CRO should ask themselves everytime a competitor completes the stage... along with polling the spotters, before reporting the score to the scorekeeper.

 

Did the competitor shoot the course of fire as written/intended in the stage instructions?  I don't think anyone can answer that with a "yes" with no caveat that he did a "little something extra."   Ergo, the answer is no, and a "Procedural" is assessed.  Yep, that little something extra earned the competitor an extra ten plus seconds... (time to perform and fire the unnecessary reload).

 

As for those that would say it's not in the list provided, I would point out that it could be argued that the competitor did not "...engage the stage in the correct order."  For when he was reloading that 11th round he/she should have been firing the next gun in the stage sequence. 

Edited by Griff

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20 hours ago, Bubba Bear, SASS #26793L said:

I believe the issue is not whether it was an advantage or not.  The scenario called for 10 rounds loaded and 10 rounds fired.  By loading and firing the 11th round, technically it did not follow the constraints of the scenario.   Right, wrong or indifferent, it would be a P. 

 

 

Can't we find a way to reorganize the SHB, so that the requirements and penalty assessments for particular situations can be found more easily and be read the same way for everyone?   Every WTC thread on the Wire turns out to be a detail debate that awaits final judgment and locking of the thread By PWB.  It shouldn't be that way.   PWB can't attend all of our matches, and can't possibly (and likely doesn't want to) stand by online to assist on every world-wide shooting situation that comes up.   ALL match officials need to be able to easily find and understand ALL of the parts of pertinent rules and make calls correctly, without endless debates and without souring the reputation of our matches.  

 

Our rules, as adopted and individually written are quite clear.  They are not the problem.  The problem that I see is that the rules regarding any particular situation seem to be strewn across numerous SHB sections, without any given hierarchy, and unless you find/read all of them, correct interpretation becomes incomplete and confusing.  Every WTC thread here on the SASS Wire seems to prove that point. 

 

Personally, I think the organization of the SHB could stand to be edited by a trained editor and reorganized, such that the verbiage of adopted rules and interpretations does not change, but the presentation and organization is consolidated and properly cross-referenced to enable ALL of the pertinent rules to be easily found and understood in match situations.  As a T. O.  you can't utilize a rule that you cannot quickly find and/or understand.  ROC interpretations need to be there too, handily footnoted in plain text wherever they apply. 

 

I wouldn't have written this comment, if the participants in these WTC thread debates were mostly inexperience shooters, trying to understand.  But many of the participants here are trained ROs, RO instructors, or TGs.  This much divergence should not be so common at that level of experience.  Rules need to be clear and understandable, at least to experienced people operating as match officials, so that our shooters have confidence in  our matches being fairly administered.  It can be done. 

 

Just my $0.25 worth.  /DDD

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale
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DDD, you win! You are the 500th person to suggest re-organizing the shooters handbook. And as a bonus for outlining the methodology for re-organizing you get a cookie.

 

For me many of these WTC's is the responder using their interpretation of the rules. Not an issue with the rules or the organization.

IKe

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1 hour ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Every WTC thread on the Wire turns out to be a detail debate that awaits final judgment and locking of the thread By PWB.

 

For those of you waiting for @PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L to chime in with the call of "PROCEDURAL for firing more rounds than required for the stage engagement", in addition to him liking @Major BS Walker Regulator answer above, just know that this topic has been discussed before...

 

 

 

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15 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

Shows that the list is missing ANOTHER reason that a Procedural penalty can be earned.  ;) 

 

I really do think it's time we get accurate when the rules list a set of items that apply to a rule.  So that the rule book reads well without having an interpreter sitting next to you.

 

Good luck, GJ

I suggested a year ago that each & every rule have a code printed in the margin  next to the rule.

 

That code could be :

MD for match DQ

SD  Stage DQ

P Procedural

SO Spirit of the Game

M miss

etc .........

That's a one or two letter  addition to the rule & instant I.D. for the penalty.

 

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5 hours ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

DDD, you win! You are the 50,000th person to suggest re-organizing the shooters handbook. And as a bonus for outlining the methodology for re-organizing you get a cookie.

 

For me many of these WTC's is the responder using their interpretation of the rules. Not an issue with the rules or the organization.

IKe

Been advocated since the first rule book, repeatedly...   And usually, in the same breath, those asking will state, "...but don't make it any larger, or too complex..."  

4 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

For those of you waiting for @PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L to chime in with the call of "PROCEDURAL for firing more rounds than required for the stage engagement", in addition to him liking @Major BS Walker Regulator answer above, just know that this topic has been discussed before...

For those lists under the particular penalty, "Miss, Procedural, MSV, SDQ, MDQ", please be reminded that NOT EVERY possible event can possibly be listed under each penalty.  Okay, maybe not under the list for a "Miss", but I bet some would argue that!

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1 hour ago, Griff said:

Been advocated since the first rule book, repeatedly...   And usually, in the same breath, those asking will state, "...but don't make it any larger, or too complex..."  

I think it would actually be thinner, once the spread out material is consolidated.   Most competent editing jobs end up with the same single text discussion displayed more suscinctly.   

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7 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

I think it would actually be thinner, once the spread out material is consolidated.   Most competent editing jobs end up with the same single text discussion displayed more suscinctly.   

 

So do it and submit it to the ROC. What's the worst that could happen?

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4 hours ago, Tyrel Cody said:

So do it and submit it to the ROC. What's the worst that could happen?

Yeah, maybe yours will be considered.

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11 hours ago, Griff said:

Yeah, maybe yours will be considered.

Perhaps a reasonable idea, but probably too presumptive.  A better outcome would result from an editor working with a designated review group.  With a SASS number in the 105000 range, I am not long enough in tooth to have the history and substance background needed to do the editing autonomously.   But I am an experienced editor who would be happy to contribute toward the textual reorganization portion.   I would become involved in an editing effort only it if I was sure there would be qualified review help available along the way, and receptive eyes at the end of the trail to read and constructively  consider and/or critique the outcome.  As yet, I am not seeing any formal invitations to be involved, and I think that is essential.   

 

As of yesterday, I have a lot on my plate with citizen-legislator involvement opposing the new legislative attempt to restrict lead bullets on CA shooting ranges.  That has to take priority for me right now.   But it won't take 100% of my time and it won't last forever. 

 

 I've complained aplenty here on the Wire in the past about the divergent organization of our SHB.  So I am willing to contribute what skills I have to fixing those problems, if asked to do so.   As I understand it,  SASS is not just an organization.  It is also an owned business, and as such decisions about the rules affecting the sport and business should require proper coordination. 

 

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale
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