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Dawson City Drifter

Barrels Down Cart?

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Hello All,

 

This may be a question easily answered, but I am new so here goes. In match photos I see mostly if not all carts with vertical guns. I'm planning my first match and am wondering if a "barrels down" cart would be acceptable as I already have one for sporting clays. 

 

Thanks a bunch!

 

 

 

image.thumb.png.2f198f85d08a94aff6c416a78cfffc41.png

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I think this was discussed on a Facebook group not too long ago.  The general consensus was no simply because people would be swept when removing and replacing the guns.  Is it possible to place them in this cart with the muzzles up?  It looks like it should work.  If this is all you have, you really should check with the club.  They may allow it if you are always facing a berm.  

Edited by Black Hills Barb
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I'd call ahead check with the match director where you'll be shooting. Some clubs really frown on that.

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Nothing in the SASS rules would prevent "gun barrels down".

 

Shot at a local SASS match using my "gun barrels up" SASS cart.  A few weeks later I went to the same range and shot in a 3-gun completion using the same SASS cart.  I was told 3-gun requires "gun barrels down" so I flipped my long guns, didn't fit to well either. 

Edited by Matthew Duncan
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17 minutes ago, Black Hills Barb said:

... The general consensus was no simply because people would be swept when removing and replacing the guns. .. 

 

Barrels up configuration would be sweeping the cart Pusher!

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barrels down should work fine if you are careful how you handle the guns

 

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SWEEPING PEOPLE with your long guns is why you shouldn’t cart your weapons “barrels down”.  In fact, such a practice has such an inherent danger, that carting “barrels down”, at some point, must be specifically disallowed.  

Maybe such a rule already exists, but I’m vision impaired at this time+typing on an iPhone......I don’t wanna go look for it.

 

My guess is that the rank and file membership has grown to include so many “non-shooters” who have not been traditionally trained, that REAL safety training, to a large extent, has taken a back seat to a rule book.

 

Well, I’m not a big fan of fat rule books, and there may already be such a rule, but if not, it may be time for a rule stating that there’s “no “barrels-down” carting of long guns.


Cat Brules

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????

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Seems I remember Rugged Gear offers a conversion to muzzle up and a 3 gun conversion..  There are some atv gun holders that would  fit on rails to hold guns vertical with something to hold the butts.     GW                                                                                                                                                         Update   Rugged Gear offers 2/3 gun muzzle up kit for 84.99

Edited by G W Wade
more info

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16 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

I believe there isn't a SASS rule about barrel direction in gun carts. It's always been left to the local range.

Agreed, at our range it's muzzle up, action open from the time you get them out of the vehicle until you put them back in the vehicle, except while on a stage. LT to ULT.

 

Randy

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i have an older model of that cart i use for sporting clays , never thought to re=rig for vertical ,i suppose it could be done  not needed yet as i have my SASS cart that works good , interesting to think on tho , 

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1 hour ago, Matthew Duncan said:

 

Barrels up configuration would be sweeping the cart Pusher!

Exactly.  I have never understood the "reasoning" behind barrel-up policies.

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Barrel down can be done safely, position cart at side berm or near LT and maintain muzzle control. As always check with the MD first. Good Luck:)

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2 hours ago, Dawson City Drifter said:

Hello All,

 

This may be a question easily answered, but I am new so here goes. In match photos I see mostly if not all carts with vertical guns. I'm planning my first match and am wondering if a "barrels down" cart would be acceptable as I already have one for sporting clays. 

 

Thanks a bunch!

 

 

 

image.thumb.png.2f198f85d08a94aff6c416a78cfffc41.png

 

Give it a try-be sure your CAS  range allows it.

Actions MUST be open.

OLG 

Edited by The Original Lumpy Gritz

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It's really hard to not sweep someone with muzzle down but it can be done as others have suggested.

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I'm not aware of any SASS rule that prohibits barrel down configuration of a cart.  For those who think such a rule exists please cite the page number and quote the rule.  As some have mentioned there are clubs that don't allow it.

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3 hours ago, Matthew Duncan said:

Nothing in the SASS rules would prevent "gun barrels down".

 

Shot at a local SASS match using my "gun barrels up" SASS cart.  A few weeks later I went to the same range and shot in a 3-gun completion using the same SASS cart.  I was told 3-gun requires "gun barrels down" so I flipped my long guns, didn't fit to well either. 

 

Same here.

 

Didn't understand that.  Some people had custom build rifles that cost more than a full set of guns for our game, and you'd think they'd be concerned about damaging the crowns.

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I’m not trying to be a smart ass, just trying to learn. My question is if the guns are in the cart muzzle down, you pull them out muzzle down (straight up and over)  then walk to the loading table muzzle down, there shouldn’t be a chance to flag or sweep someone should there? Actions being open and muzzle pointing straight down? Seems just about as hard as holding them straight up, but I’m sure I’m missing something but can’t learn without asking. 

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I don’t think you’re a smart ass.  
I just do not believe it’s a good practice to put long guns in a cart muzzle down, because of the inherent risks involved in sweeping people with the weapons during handling, getting them into and out of the cart.  Opinions vary on everything.

 

Cat Brules

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True on opinions, and I’ll defer to those with experience in this sport, particularly if there are people with less experience in gun handling “etiquette” (safety) involved. Whatever makes it simple to be safe will benefit the most. 

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6 hours ago, Black Hills Barb said:

I think this was discussed on a Facebook group not too long ago.  The general consensus was no simply because people would be swept when removing and replacing the guns.  Is it possible to place them in this car with the muzzles up?  It looks like it should work.  If this is all you have, you really should check with the club.  They may allow it if you are always facing a berm.  

I get that it is difficult to drop the muzzle without sweeping people, but I also see a lot of guns pointing directly at people's heads or torsos as they push or pull their carts with muzzles up.   It most certainly violates the "safe muzzle direction" and "every gun is loaded" safety rules we were all taught when we began shooting.   Solution? I have none, except to be extremely diligent at the ULT and make sure actions don't accidentally close.   

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at one of the clubs I've shot at, they crowd under cover to shoot when it rains. It is so tight and crowded you could not possibly pull 'muzzle down' long guns safely.Every club I shoot at requires muzzle up because we shoot from concrete floors and a negligent discharge would be more likely to hurt someone if the gun were muzzle down.

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I've seen about everything used including golf bag carts.  Standing muzzle up like most carts are made or Rugged Gear 4 gun standing looks to me like the easiest way to safely handle the guns (even though the double barrel shotguns tend to fall shut).

 

I'm always leery of the carts that hold the guns at an angle - up or down. Up and they are pointing right in the face of the pusher and anyone walking past. Down and there is the problem of getting them in and out without sweeping someone. 

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Looking at the OP's cart picture I think it would be difficult to keep a SxS broke open with that set up.  Changing that cart to muzzle up is going to require some thought and reworking whats there.  Switching to muzzle up with that angle is going to put the barrel at an angle that could be pointing at anyone standing behind you.

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I'm thinking if you put your cart on the sides (especially if you have berms) and then point the guns away from the posse towards the berm or no shooters as you pull them out just rotate them to a barrel up position and proceed to the loading table. 

 

No one swept and it shows a knowledge of gun handling which is better than ANY rule imo. 

Edited by Cowboy Junky
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Pistols are carried barrel down.

 

 

Just sayin....

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I have seen both types of barrel orientation.  In any event, control of the muzzles is imperative regardless of the type of carry.  I carried an extra shotgun muzzle down in a scabbard attached to the side of the cart.  Never had a problem taking it out or putting it back.

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4 hours ago, Warden Callaway said:

I'm always leery of the carts that hold the guns at an angle - up or down.

 

+1

 

Especially muzzle up, but also muzzle down on concrete grounds

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6 hours ago, Throckmorton,23149 said:

because we shoot from concrete floors and a negligent discharge would be more likely to hurt someone if the gun were muzzle down.

 

This seems like a good example of why not to do it.

 

I guess this may just be a good chance to build one of those fancy SASS carts everyone carries arround :) 

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That cart is like the one I have but it has the 4 gun holder on it, I only use rifle and shotgun in it and the barrels are facing up toward me with actions open, no one has ever said anything about it, granted it sweeps me but is is safe with action open and I like this cart, easier to push than my wooden one.

 

 

All for now JD Trampas

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7 hours ago, Throckmorton,23149 said:

…...Every club I shoot at requires muzzle up because we shoot from concrete floors and a negligent discharge would be more likely to hurt someone if the gun were muzzle down.

 

How could you have a ND if the actions are open and long guns unloaded?

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Used one like this for a while. I turned muzzle up. No problem with my 20” double staying open. I ended up getting the 3 gun conversion upright from rugged gear as sometimes I like to carry an extra long gun. Thing to remember is that once you change it to an upright you have to get the rain/dust cover for the new configuration. 

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What you all are missing is with guns  stored vertically in a gun cart, they sweep the shooter and those around him when the cart is laid back to push it around!

I also am having difficulty seeing how a long gun stored like shown in the cart would affect the crown of the rifle. If the rifle barrel is so soft/weak to loose its crown because of that I wouldn't trust it to shoot.

I just went through the shooters handbook. Nothing is said about gun carts, muzzle direction, or "sweeping" anyone other than at the LT to the ULT and guns being cleared.  

Nothing is said about the handling of guns anywhere else.  Has anyone every received a penalty for sweeping someone off of the line?  Unless it's a range rule how could it be a rule? Trap/skeet shooters and some ranges allow the long guns to be carried   XXX as long as the action is open! Why are we saying the guns stored as shown need to be pointed at a berm?  The range rules dictate.
ike

Edited by irish ike, SASS #43615
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Different sports different rules. Shoot trap and skeet. Actions open muzzles down while moving in hand.  Shoot cowboy. Actions open muzzles up while moving in hand. As far as transporting in a cart, muzzle awareness while putting in cart either up down or horizontal with the actions open. Horizontal or down cart should be next to berm or other safe direction as a matter of courtesy/safety. IMO open action trumps all for safety. 

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