Barrels Down Cart?

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

17 hours ago, Black Hills Barb said:

I think this was discussed on a Facebook group not too long ago.  The general consensus was no simply because people would be swept when removing and replacing the guns.  Is it possible to place them in this cart with the muzzles up?  It looks like it should work.  If this is all you have, you really should check with the club.  They may allow it if you are always facing a berm.  

I have one of these in a three-gun configuration.  I usually park it next to a berm with no room for anyone to walk behind it.  If that is not possible I park it against an empty, locked storage shed.  Finally, if those options are not available I park it in a location where there is no one standing behind the cart and rotate it as needed to avoid sweeping anyone when handling guns.  All this just complicates shooting a match and I recommend using a cart where the muzzles point straight up.  I do not point muzzles down.  The configuration of the cart won't allow muzzle down storage.

[Nate Kiowa Jones #6765]

If I am going to be the victim of an ND I would much rather be shot in the foot than in the face.

 

Muzzle down.

 

 

[ShadowCatcher]

18 hours ago, Dawson City Drifter said:

Hello All,

 

This may be a question easily answered, but I am new so here goes. In match photos I see mostly if not all carts with vertical guns. I'm planning my first match and am wondering if a "barrels down" cart would be acceptable as I already have one for sporting clays. 

 

Thanks a bunch!

 

 

 

 

For years I used a wagon as a gun cart, and both the rifle and the shotgun were carried horizontally.  They are kept cased in a soft canvas sock, which I slip off at the Loading table, and back on at unloading.  That keeps dirt and dust off them while rolling the cart around in sandy and dry areas, and keeps the gun muzzles protected from any dirt and debris.  When I remove the cover from the shotgun I break the action open and lay it on the loading table. 

I would always park the wagon facing into a berm or wall, so that there was no possible way for a person to walk behind the cart, just as a secondary way of keeping the muzzle pointed in a safe direction.  I have never been comfortable with muzzle up in a cart where I have to look at the muzzles!

 

I've since bought a Rugged Gear cart, and I'm considering mounting my sleeved guns similar to the picture you posted. 

 

Shadow Catcher

 

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

I have the same cart as pictured with a four-gun holder. Note the S x S in the picture is stored muzzle down with the action closed. That's a no-no.  You can't store a S x S muzzle down with the action open in one of these carts, but muzzle up works great. The whole vertical vs slant thing is academic. If actions are open, the ND issue is moot.

[Ramblin Gambler]

15 hours ago, No Name said:

I’m not trying to be a smart ass, just trying to learn. My question is if the guns are in the cart muzzle down, you pull them out muzzle down (straight up and over)  then walk to the loading table muzzle down, there shouldn’t be a chance to flag or sweep someone should there? Actions being open and muzzle pointing straight down? Seems just about as hard as holding them straight up, but I’m sure I’m missing something but can’t learn without asking. 

 

If it's pointed straight down, yes.  But they will be pointed at a slight angle which will be sweeping people's feet.  It's awkward to carry a gun with the muzzle straight down without pointing it at your own foot.  When pointed up, they are less likely to be at an angle, but even if they are, the muzzles should be lifted up above people's heads. 

 

It's not difficult to store and carry muzzle down without sweeping people.  The main reason I don't do it is because the crown of the muzzle isn't designed for it.  The butt of the gun is. 

 

5 hours ago, Marshal Hangtree said:

 

How could you have a ND if the actions are open and long guns unloaded?

 

First rule of gun safety.  Always treat all guns as if they are loaded.  Doesn't matter that you think it's impossible for the gun to go off.  I'd wager that most (some might say all) NDs happen with guns that the discharger thought couldn't go off. 

 

[Marshal Hangtree]

Horsefeathers.

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

I said this before how can laying a gun horizontally impact, affect or change the barrel crown? When they crown a barrel they put it into a hydraulic press and it takes a bit of pressure to do that. Bouncing in a cart reverses that???????

"The main reason I don't do it is because the crown of the muzzle isn't designed for it.  The butt of the gun is." 

[watab kid]

i had scabbards on my cart years ago - big problem with them was keeping actions open , otherwise , they were fine 

[Pea Eye Parker]

4 hours ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

 

If it's pointed straight down, yes.  But they will be pointed at a slight angle which will be sweeping people's feet.  It's awkward to carry a gun with the muzzle straight down without pointing it at your own foot. 

 

 

The way those guns are in the OP's photo, peoples feet would have to be under the cart. This type of cart is used in many other shooting sports.  I shot trap for many years and the shooters rest the muzzle on their foot. I'm all for safety, shooting sports have inherent dangers and we all need to work to minimize risk but let's not get carried away.

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

Everyone's all wonky about the guns pointing at someones feet, sort of. But none of you have acknowledged that you sweep yourselves and others when you tilt your gun cart back to push it around. Shot in the foot is worse than being shot in the head or chest I guess!

[watab kid]

looking for something else in old threads and came across this -

 

 

[John Barleycorn, SASS #76982]

Come on folks we can get this to 5 pages. 

[Ramblin Gambler]

2 hours ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

I said this before how can laying a gun horizontally impact, affect or change the barrel crown? When they crown a barrel they put it into a hydraulic press and it takes a bit of pressure to do that. Bouncing in a cart reverses that???????

"The main reason I don't do it is because the crown of the muzzle isn't designed for it.  The butt of the gun is." 

 

Horizontal is fine with me, but it'll give some people conniption fits (at least it has in the past on the wire).  I don't think that's what you meant though.  I don't see why it matters how much pressure the hydraulic press uses.  Does it harden the crown or something?  Guns get "cart dings" all the time.  Why would it be any tougher to ding the crown than anywhere else on the barrel? 

 

 

 

[Ramblin Gambler]

 

1 hour ago, Pea Eye Parker said:

 

The way those guns are in the OP's photo, peoples feet would have to be under the cart. This type of cart is used in many other shooting sports.  I shot trap for many years and the shooters rest the muzzle on their foot. I'm all for safety, shooting sports have inherent dangers and we all need to work to minimize risk but let's not get carried away.

 

I was going to bring up the muzzle on the foot thing as a prime example of why we don't want to follow their example.  I've even seen pictures of people who mounted something onto their shoe to make the barrel rest there easier!

[Go West]

In the cart picture just above, 4 long guns are held in the wooden rack in an upright position. Ammo boxes are held in the tray and an Igloo cooler is placed in the box above the front wheel. I hang bags on the handle for the empties. Not pretty, but serviceable at a low cost. 

[Ramblin Gambler]

36 minutes ago, John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 said:

Come on folks we can get this to 5 pages. 

 

 

[Matthew Duncan]

20 hours ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

... You can't store a S x S muzzle down with the action open in one of these carts, but muzzle up works great. ...

 

Rotate the SxS 180 degrees and the action will remain open.

 

 

Closer to page three...

[ShadowCatcher]

16 hours ago, watab kid said:

i had scabbards on my cart years ago - big problem with them was keeping actions open , otherwise , they were fine 

Is there any SASS or range rule that says a scabbarded or cased shotgun has to be action open?

When we arrive at the range the guns are all actions closed, when we take them out of the case we open the actions.

 

Why would be need to have a shotgun open if it is in a case on a cart?

I take my cased/sleeved rifle and shotgun to the LT and case/sleve them before leaving the ULT.

 

Is there some rule somewhere? 

 

SC

 

. . .  just helping the cause!

[Captain Bill Burt]

2 hours ago, ShadowCatcher said:

Is there any SASS or range rule that says a scabbarded or cased shotgun has to be action open?

When we arrive at the range the guns are all actions closed, when we take them out of the case we open the actions.

 

Why would be need to have a shotgun open if it is in a case on a cart?

I take my cased/sleeved rifle and shotgun to the LT and case/sleve them before leaving the ULT.

 

Is there some rule somewhere? 

 

SC

 

. . .  just helping the cause!

Hi ShadowCatcher.

 

The relevant rule is on page 18 of the SHB.  "Long guns shall have their actions open with chambers and magazines empty and muzzles pointed in a safe direction when transported at a match."  This rule applies when the gun(s) are in hand, or in the cart, however common sense still applies.  Most of our muzzles up gun carts result in the guns being pointed at the person pushing the cart.  This is clearly NOT 'a safe direction' but we don't DQ everyone whose cart does that. 

 

I seem to recall an unwritten exception for guns that are cased or scabbarded, but I don't remember enough about the thread to search it up.  If the gun is cased or in a scabbard it seems to me that it's condition would not be readily clear to anyone and if I were in that position (guns in a scabbard or case) and someone wanted to see whether my gun was open/empty I would probably tell them to mind their own business. 

 

If I ever go to EOT I plan to have scabbards for my guns and I also plan to have them closed in the scabbards to keep the dust out. 

[watab kid]

all of that seemed logical - ive never been to EOT ....yet , is it dusty ? i guess that might be a consideration in deciding what to do there , not been to WR yet either , but ill have to check that as well , i still have my scabbards and they go on the cart fairly easily - about a 5 minute job , i found them less convenient when i had them on before tho , 

 

OH YEA we can get to five pages without effort , 

[Griff]

Fear mongering.  That's what I read here.  "My way is Safer!"  Gun games have an inherent risk.  Just as different gun games have different types of etiquette.  There is no greater safety device that the matter between your ears.   If you really KNOW that muzzles down is patently unsafe, you owe it to all those players of sports that require muzzle down carry to bring that message to them... and get them to change their rules.

 

Oh, wait... actually you're mimicking the anti-gunners to a "T".  Get over yourselves.

 

[Griff]

Actually, what y'all ought to be more concerned about is:

Regardless of what State you live in.  

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

9 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

...

 

If I ever go to EOT I plan to have scabbards for my guns and I also plan to have them closed in the scabbards to keep the dust out. 

 

You might consider dust covers that allow "actions open".

Last I heard, EoT enforces SASS rules "as written" with no exception regarding scabbards.

BICBW

[Captain Bill Burt]

5 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

You might consider dust covers that allow "actions open".

Last I heard, EoT enforces SASS rules "as written" with no exception regarding scabbards.

BICBW

Good to know.

 

I don't know about that BICBW, I've never known you to be wrong about the rules.

 

Thanks 

[ShadowCatcher]

12 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

You might consider dust covers that allow "actions open".

Last I heard, EoT enforces SASS rules "as written" with no exception regarding scabbards.

BICBW

I'm thinking that using the chamber flags that prevent a round from being in the chamber(s) and prevents the action from locking closed might be the best all around solution, even when casing the long guns.

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

7 minutes ago, ShadowCatcher said:

I'm thinking that using the chamber flags that prevent a round from being in the chamber(s) and prevents the action from locking closed might be the best all around solution, even when casing the long guns.

 

Quote

- Long guns shall have their actions open with chambers and magazines empty and muzzles pointed in a safe direction when transported at a match. 

SHB p.18

[Ninety Caliber Al, 50218]

46 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

SHB p.18

Seems to me that’s the answer to the question. SAFE direction , not up or down

[watab kid]

yup - i am hearing all this , i was in line at the sub shop one day , mid summer , no coats and noticed the lady in front of me was a cop , wore a shoulder rig - gun was horizontal facing back at all of us in line , i noted it but i also did not register it as a threat , sometimes its the circumstances and intent that affect the understanding of the situation , 

 

all said im not going to get real concerned over someones cart carry - we have rules and follow them , the loading/unloading table keeps it pretty safe on the line - thus off the line , 

 

i am going to add that shooting three gun i came across a lot of cops that could shoot and some that could not , i was not just thinking cop-safe , i was thinking non-threat and hands well away from the firearm , its a common sense thing , open actions are not a threat , just sayin , 

[Ramblin Gambler]

16 hours ago, watab kid said:

yup - i am hearing all this , i was in line at the sub shop one day , mid summer , no coats and noticed the lady in front of me was a cop , wore a shoulder rig - gun was horizontal facing back at all of us in line , i noted it but i also did not register it as a threat , sometimes its the circumstances and intent that affect the understanding of the situation , 

 

all said im not going to get real concerned over someones cart carry - we have rules and follow them , the loading/unloading table keeps it pretty safe on the line - thus off the line , 

 

i am going to add that shooting three gun i came across a lot of cops that could shoot and some that could not , i was not just thinking cop-safe , i was thinking non-threat and hands well away from the firearm , its a common sense thing , open actions are not a threat , just sayin , 

 

I just wouldn't want to be behind her if she had to draw the weapon in a stressful situation.  Or off to her left for that matter (assuming she's a righty).