"Big Boston" Posted February 23, 2020 Share Posted February 23, 2020 First, I don't like the sound of term "Slam firing", and I wish there was a more professional sounding expression. On a comment for a Winchester 1897 video a poster claimed that a '97 wouldn't fire until it was completely in battery. I've been working on several basket case '97 turds and after many hours of "fixing" I think I understand what the timing of events are for a '97 slam fire. I've also changed a few hammers and sears, so I've jumped into adjusting the trigger stop. Here's my take on how the '97 does what it does: "The '97 cannot fire when "completely" out of battery. If the trigger is held down while pumping, the sear is tripped when the bolt is "almost" fully closed and "nearly" in battery. Slam firing requires a deliberate working of the action. The delay of the hammer falling is sufficient to allow the gun to be pumped into complete battery before the primer is struck. The sear tripping is controlled by the trigger. The position of the trigger is adjusted with the trigger stop screw. This adjustment does require some gun knowledge. I would not attempt or try to slam fire a '97 before this timing is checked. Technique is important, as is adjustment, helping to prevent undue stress on the bolt. There is an additional safety feature to prevent firing out of battery. The firing pin is blocked, and the carrier unblocks the firing pin when the action is closing. Again, these are all analog events. The firing pin is unblocked at about the same time the sear is tripped, during the last 20% of the carriers travel. The '97 has a non-disconnecting trigger, as does the Model 12 Winchester. Early production Ithaca 37 shotguns were capable of slam fire, but the trigger mechanism was different. Later models were modified to have a disconnecting type of trigger. The '97 trigger was never modified to be a disconnecting trigger, and as modern reproduction clones do not, I don't think it's possible without a complete redesign." I am curious, does anyone have any specifications, or measurements/clearances that can be used to calibrate or adjust the trigger stop to? Or is it more of a Zen thing? BB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted February 23, 2020 Share Posted February 23, 2020 Ummmm .... Ah ..... and yer point is ?????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted February 23, 2020 Share Posted February 23, 2020 5 hours ago, "Big Boston" said: First, I don't like the sound of term "Slam firing", and I wish there was a more professional sounding expression. You want a professional sounding expression: When I do it, I call it 'Widder Gunnin'. When Red Knee does it, I call it 'fannin'. If you ever heard of the 'Fanner 50', Red Knee has a 'Fanner 97'...... I'm sure there are other 97 shooters who have their own preferred name, like.....'Missouri Mauler', 'Santa Fe Streak', 'Copperhead Viper Strike', etc..... ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pedernales Drifter Posted February 23, 2020 Share Posted February 23, 2020 I think you have not taken into consideration the release of the firing pin lock as the carrier slides into battery. But as stated above, your point is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
"Big Boston" Posted February 23, 2020 Author Share Posted February 23, 2020 Thanks, I'll call it my "Boston Sweep". BB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted February 23, 2020 Share Posted February 23, 2020 20 minutes ago, "Big Boston" said: Thanks, I'll call it my "Boston Sweep". BB Ya gotta have a video. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrel Cody Posted February 23, 2020 Share Posted February 23, 2020 2 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said: You want a professional sounding expression: When I do it, I call it 'Widder Gunnin'. When Red Knee does it, I call it 'fannin'. If you ever heard of the 'Fanner 50', Red Knee has a 'Fanner 97'...... I'm sure there are other 97 shooters who have their own preferred name, like.....'Missouri Mauler', 'Santa Fe Streak', 'Copperhead Viper Strike', etc..... ..........Widder The Sidekick Slamfire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
"Big Boston" Posted February 23, 2020 Author Share Posted February 23, 2020 4 minutes ago, Pedernales Drifter said: I think you have not taken into consideration the release of the firing pin lock as the carrier slides into battery. But as stated above, your point is? I believe I did mention that: "There is an additional safety feature to prevent firing out of battery. The firing pin is blocked, and the carrier unblocks the firing pin when the action is closing. Again, these are all analog events. The firing pin is unblocked at about the same time the sear is tripped, during the last 20% of the carriers travel." My point: I am confident that I've adjusted the trigger stop screw properly, but in all my searching I've never come across a measurement or specification, and perhaps there isn't any. It's been my experience that if it's adjusted to just allow the hammer to drop, the adjustment has to be backed out to allow you to put the hammer into the half cock position. Disturbing to me is that on many '97's the trigger stop screw is frozen in place and requires a fair bit of work to get it loose. Equally disturbing is finding the trigger stop screw filed down at an angle, which mystifies me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patagonia Pete Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 Watch the video!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Abf8PS-sMHI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
"Big Boston" Posted February 24, 2020 Author Share Posted February 24, 2020 Sorry, got lost on the way to that one, but check out Nick's garage, old school muscle. The 97 video is pretty good, the x-ray look is interesting. This is the point at which the firing pin block is removed. These pieces can wear and this timing can change, but without any definitive specifications, and by comparing to the operation of some other 97's, I'd say this is pretty normal. I would describe this as being "almost" in battery, as there is still a bit of travel before the carrier is in the full lock position. If you shoot the 97 as your supposed to, the carrier will be in full lockup before the shell fires. FWIW: on this 97 I've adjusted the trigger stop screw so that it will slam fire shortly after this point. This fine an adjustment isn't possible on all 97's. It's far more likely that the hammer will start falling slightly earlier. This is due to the relationship between the sear, trigger and how much clearance is required to get proper movement to move from cock to half cock. It's almost like the sear and trigger are or can be a matched set. On my 97's this is something I check on occasion. Original 97's have been around for a while, they may have had many parts replaced, there could be issues. The bolt in mine has been changed, there may be other non original parts as well. All in all, it's in good condition. and it's my main shotgun, with a clone as my back-up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watab kid Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 i still like mine ...shoots great , Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 7 hours ago, "Big Boston" said: Thanks, I'll call it my "Boston Sweep". BB I like.... 'Big Boston Boomer'. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Junky Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 I'm still trying to figure out how to slam fire my double Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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