Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 Sometime ago I lamented the fact that a shooter had been assessed a Stage DQ for moving with closed and cocked shotgun from loading table to firing line because the gun closed while they were walking. The immediate reply from PWB was that should have been a no call, followed quickly by a rules committee ruling that the SDQ was correct. I am 100% clear on the new cocked rifle rule. My question is: has there been a clarification to include the shotgun in this rule change? It would seem logical to me that a gun that was never loaded would be at least as safe cocked and closed as a gun that is known to have live ammunition in it. Requiring a shooter to stop and correct this situation with a loaded gun in the other hand does not seem to make sense. Hoping for a clarification prior to winter range. If the shotgun has not been included in this new ruling, why not? Also, if it is not included, I believe the RO committee should consider revising the rule to include all long guns. CR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 No. the rule only applied to the rifle. Moving from the LT to the firing line with a cocked shotgun with the action closed is a SDQ. More specifically, the SDQ kicks in when they take their second step. SHB PG 23 Quote Changing location with a long gun with the action closed and the hammer cocked (exception for rifle from the loading table to the stage with no round chambered). 51 minutes ago, Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L said: Hoping for a clarification prior to winter range. If the shotgun has not been included in this new ruling, why not? Also, if it is not included, I believe the RO committee should consider revising the rule to include all long guns. It was not changed because the TGs did not vote to change it. As this is a rule change, it requires a vote of the TGs. Bring it up with your TG and maybe they can get it changed. Who knows....It may be one of the topics discussed at the TG meeting at Winter Range. I can't think of much else that they might want to discuss... Quote Proposed rule change: Eliminate the automatic Stage DQ penalty for leaving the loading table with a cocked rifle. In such instances, the shooter will be directed to point the rifle safely into the back berm, bring the hammer to full cock if it is in the half-cock/safety position, then pull the trigger. If no round is fired, the shooter will be directed to finish staging firearms in order to start the stage (No Call).If a round fires when the shooter pulls the trigger, the shooter will be assessed a Stage DQ and directed to proceed to the unloading table. PASSED by vote of the Territorial Governors. YES - 208 (75.3%) NO -- 68 (24.6%) Effective January 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 See also @PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495Lchiming in to confirm what I said above: Quote The rule change only applies to RIFLES The applicable rule is a SDQ for: Changing location/moving with a live round under a cocked hammer or firearm with the hammer down on a live round. Regarding shotguns closing from the LT to the stage, it depends on what type shotgun. An external-hammer SxS or single-shot shotgun would be a "no call" if the hammer(s) are down on empty chamber(s). (Same condition a rifle is brought from the LT...simply open the shotgun before staging). A hammerless SxS, single-shot, 1897, or 1887 which is cocked on opening that closes would be a SDQ. Changing location with a long gun with the action closed and the hammer cocked. SHB p.23 - Stage Disqualification Best practice is to immediately STOP and open the shotgun (assisted if necessary). or Learn to carry the shotgun in a manner which doesn't cause it to close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tequila Shooter Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 I can see Cowboy Rick's point given the new rule with regards to rifles, if you have a cocked SG and the trigger is pulled and nothing happens it should be a No Call. Of course if it's a SxS you could always just break it open and see that no shells are in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Badly Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 Makes sense to me. I have never seen anyone load their shotgun at the loading table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 52 minutes ago, Mister Badly said: Makes sense to me. I have never seen anyone load their shotgun at the loading table. Keep shooting a while. You would be surprised at what you see folks do. Had the experience of shooting with someone who loaded the SG at the LT just this past year. I know, right? It was a first for me, too. 57 minutes ago, Tequila Chase said: I can see Cowboy Rick's point given the new rule with regards to rifles, if you have a cocked SG and the trigger is pulled and nothing happens it should be a No Call. Of course if it's a SxS you could always just break it open and see that no shells are in it. This ambiguity and double standard is what a lot of us were bringing up even before the vote was taken. It was also one of the reasons why some TGs voted against the proposal. If we add on to Rick's point...Why is it OK to move from the LT to the stage with a cocked, loaded rifle with the action closed, but it is a SDQ for moving from the stage to the ULT with an cocked, empty rifle with the action closed? Because that is what the rule says... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L Posted February 21, 2020 Author Share Posted February 21, 2020 3 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said: No. the rule only applied to the rifle. Moving from the LT to the firing line with a cocked shotgun with the action closed is a SDQ. More specifically, the SDQ kicks in when they take their second step. SHB PG 23 It was not changed because the TGs did not vote to change it. As this is a rule change, it requires a vote of the TGs. Bring it up with your TG and maybe they can get it changed. Who knows....It may be one of the topics discussed at the TG meeting at Winter Range. I can't think of much else that they might want to discuss... Jack, thank you for the input, but as I stated I am well aware of the rule as written. My question was specifically to raise the awareness of the inequality as it relates to the shotgun. In my opinion, the cocked rifle ruling was a rush to judgment and should have included the shotgun and been limited to rifles on half cock. A known loaded gun versus a known unloaded gun? I believe it is within the ROC purview to clarify this rule to include all long guns. CR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 7 minutes ago, Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L said: Jack, thank you for the input, but as I stated I am well aware of the rule as written. My question was specifically to raise the awareness of the inequality as it relates to the shotgun. In my opinion, the cocked rifle ruling was a rush to judgment and should have included the shotgun and been limited to rifles on half cock. A known loaded gun versus a known unloaded gun? I believe it is within the ROC purview to clarify this rule to include all long guns. CR A lot of us pointed just what you said out before the vote was ever made. But, I'll reiterate what I asked before...following the same course of logic you just stated...Why is it OK to move from the LT to the stage with a cocked, loaded rifle with the action closed, but it is a SDQ for moving from the stage to the ULT with an cocked, empty rifle with the action closed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 24 minutes ago, Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L said: Jack, thank you for the input, but as I stated I am well aware of the rule as written. My question was specifically to raise the awareness of the inequality as it relates to the shotgun. In my opinion, the cocked rifle ruling was a rush to judgment and should have included the shotgun and been limited to rifles on half cock. A known loaded gun versus a known unloaded gun? I believe it is within the ROC purview to clarify this rule to include all long guns. CR The "movement with a cocked rifle" rule change was discussed among the Territorial Governors for over two years before coming to a vote. There was no "rush to judgement". The "movement with shotgun" (in various conditions) issues were clarified under existing rules. SASS rules define the terms "COCKED" & "HAMMER DOWN" in regard to half cocked hammers: (REF: SHB pp.44-45 - "Glossary of Terms" The ROC does NOT have the authority to change the scope of the rule "as passed" by the Territorial Governors to include shotguns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tequila Shooter Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 9 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said: The "movement with a cocked rifle" rule change was discussed among the Territorial Governors for over two years before coming to a vote. There was no "rush to judgement". The "movement with shotgun" (in various conditions) issues were clarified under existing rules. SASS rules define the terms "COCKED" & "HAMMER DOWN" in regard to half cocked hammers: (REF: SHB pp.44-45 - "Glossary of Terms" The ROC does NOT have the authority to change the scope of the rule "as passed" by the Territorial Governors to include shotguns. I don't envy your job, I don't think I could be so patient, thanks for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Hombre Sin Nombre Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 So if I am walking from the unloading table with a shotgun, and it closes without my knowing (I'm not sure how that would happen but pretend that's the case), I'll get a SDQ? What about if I haven't cocked the hammers yet and it closes? Still a SDQ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrel Cody Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said: So if I am walking from the unloading table with a shotgun, and it closes without my knowing (I'm not sure how that would happen but pretend that's the case), I'll get a SDQ? What about if I haven't cocked the hammers yet and it closes? Still a SDQ? Yes and assuming you're talking about external hammer shotgun, no call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Hombre Sin Nombre Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 Just now, Tyrel Cody said: Yes and assuming you're talking about external hammer shotgun, no call. That would be about the only way to do it I imagine. It got me thinking that maybe I should start not cocking my hammers until I stage it. Then it got me thinking that I should stop thinking. I mean how widespread of an issue is this? Hasn't happened in 5+ years so how likely will it happen? And if it does close, the way I carry my shotgun would make it very hard to not notice. Might even take a bite out of my hand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrel Cody Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 1 minute ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said: That would be about the only way to do it I imagine. It got me thinking that maybe I should start not cocking my hammers until I stage it. Then it got me thinking that I should stop thinking. I mean how widespread of an issue is this? Hasn't happened in 5+ years so how likely will it happen? And if it does close, the way I carry my shotgun would make it very hard to not notice. Might even take a bite out of my hand I'm guessing I carry mine in a similar fashion. If I'm spotting or running the timer I try to watch folks as they leave the loading table. In just over a year we've managed to stop 3 people from taking a step when their hammerless closes; thus avoiding a SDQ. I've seen 2 people get the SDQ. I believe this penalty needs to go away. I told my TG to vote no on the rifle rule change unless they included the shotgun as well for consistency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L Posted February 21, 2020 Author Share Posted February 21, 2020 44 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said: The "movement with a cocked rifle" rule change was discussed among the Territorial Governors for over two years before coming to a vote. There was no "rush to judgement". The "movement with shotgun" (in various conditions) issues were clarified under existing rules. SASS rules define the terms "COCKED" & "HAMMER DOWN" in regard to half cocked hammers: (REF: SHB pp.44-45 - "Glossary of Terms" The ROC does NOT have the authority to change the scope of the rule "as passed" by the Territorial Governors to include shotguns. Thank you for clarifying the ROC position and responsibility. I was a TG when this discussion started, but our small club folded when the land owner died. At the time, I was advocating my current position. Back to the drawing board, I guess. Thanks for your time and patience CR 44 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 2 hours ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said: So if I am walking from the unloading table with a shotgun, and it closes without my knowing (I'm not sure how that would happen but pretend that's the case), I'll get a SDQ? What about if I haven't cocked the hammers yet and it closes? Still a SDQ? Once you take your second step from the stage to the ULT with a closed, cock long gun, you earn a SDQ. If you have an external hammered shotgun, and both hammers are down, no call. SHB pg 16 Quote A shotgun is considered SAFE for movement (in hand, while moving through a stage in the following condition only: - Action open, round in chamber or on carrier. - Hammer(s) fully down on an empty chamber(s) or expended round(s), action closed. If the SG was the last gun fired, you could even go from the stage to the ULT with hammers down on spent cartridges and not receive a penalty as long as the cartridges were cleared before setting the gun on the ULT. SHB pg 18 Quote o If the long gun is the last firearm used, it must be cleared prior to it leaving the shooters hand(s) at the unloading area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yusta B. Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 13 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said: 2 hours ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said: So if I am walking from the unloading table with a shotgun, and it closes without my knowing (I'm not sure how that would happen but pretend that's the case), I'll get a SDQ? What about if I haven't cocked the hammers yet and it closes? Still a SDQ? Once you take your second step from the stage to the ULT with a closed, cock long gun, you earn a SDQ. If you have an external hammered shotgun, and both hammers are down, no call. Walking from the table to the gun cart ?? Still apply ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 7 minutes ago, Yusta B. said: Walking from the table to the gun cart ?? Still apply ? I read right past that....I somehow read to...Long day... No Call on both counts. SHB pg 45 Quote Firing line – from first firearm placed on the loading table until all firearms are confirmed as cleared at the unloading table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yusta B. Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 1 minute ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said: I read right past that.... No. I did too, twice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramblin Gambler Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 So is it safer to just pull the triggers on your hammerless doubles at the LT and carry them to the staging position closed? I mean, if the SG closing is a problem for you. It seems to be a problem for some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 Just to put my two cents worth in. ALL these issues were brought up PRIOR to the TG voting. If you had concerns you should have expressed them LOUDLY then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yusta B. Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 21 minutes ago, Ramblin Gambler said: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Devil Dale Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 10 hours ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said: So if I am walking from the unloading table with a shotgun, and it closes without my knowing (I'm not sure how that would happen but pretend that's the case), I'll get a SDQ? What about if I haven't cocked the hammers yet and it closes? Still a SDQ? If you are walking from the ULT, it sounds like your guns must have been cleared and you are no longer on the stage or firing line, so no DQ. As I understand it, the DQ penalty is only applied when the shooter is on the stage -- between the time you put the gun down on the LT until the guns are pronounced clear at the ULT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Devil Dale Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 7 hours ago, Ramblin Gambler said: So is it safer to just pull the triggers on your hammerless doubles at the LT and carry them to the staging position closed? I mean, if the SG closing is a problem for you. It seems to be a problem for some. The rule is a bit confusing. "A shotgun is considered safe for movement (in hand while moving through a stage) in the following condition only: 1) action open, round in chamber or on carrier 2) Hammers fully down on empty chamber(s) or on expended rounds, action closed." If you do as you described with an internal hammer gun, I would suggest getting T. O. approval BEFORE OPENING THE SHOTGUN at the staging location. T. O. may need to have you pull the triggers on an internal hammer gun to verify hammers were fully down during movement. Oddly, the rules stop short of allowing a SG to be carried with action open with chambers empty. (I presume that is just an oversight) Just a note. Some, shooters are unaware that dry firing a SXS can be damaging to the firing pins. A better way to drop the hammers on an internal hammer gun with dual triggers is to hold the two triggers back while closing the breach. Hammers are then lowered slowly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Hombre Sin Nombre Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 13 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said: If you are walking from the ULT, it sounds like your guns must have been cleared and you are no longer on the stage or firing line, so no DQ. As I understand it, the DQ penalty is only applied when the shooter is on the stage -- between the time you put the gun down on the LT until the guns are pronounced clear at the ULT. Misprint. I meant walking from the loading table........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish ike, SASS #43615 Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 I believe the issue here is for SXS that can close depending on how you pick the gun up and carry it to the line. 97's if anyone picks the gun up by the forearm they need to be horsewhipped, mildly. If you pick up the SXS by the forearm and lift it most will close because of the action work. Especially if you keep to the 170 rule. I grab mine by the grip/stock which then requires the stock tp be tilted back weirdly but it works. I've also picked the shotgun up by the forearm at the end of the stage and had it close as I pick it up. SO if I take two steps and then open it do I get a SDQ? IKe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 1 hour ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said: I've also picked the shotgun up by the forearm at the end of the stage and had it close as I pick it up. SO if I take two steps and then open it do I get a SDQ? What kind of shotgun? What is the condition of the hammer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blast Masterson Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 On 2/21/2020 at 9:42 AM, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said: Had the experience of shooting with someone who loaded the SG at the LT just this past year. I know, right? It was a first for me, too. How do the shells stay in the gun when pointed up and down range? My previous SXS used to close when I entered the stage area and pointed the gun more vertical because others we in front/down range of me entering the stage. If someone stages a closed SG, they must open it. If there is a shell in there, keep going to the unloading table with a well earned SDQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 Quote How do the shells stay in the gun when pointed up and down range? It was a stoked 97 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish ike, SASS #43615 Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 SXS internal hammers, gun would be cocked as it was staged open and empty. Now the gun is closed, hammer down on an empty chamber! 2 steps and? Lasrt gun shot? Not the last gun shot? Ike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 6 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said: SXS internal hammers, gun would be cocked as it was staged open and empty. Now the gun is closed, hammer down on an empty chamber! 2 steps and? Lasrt gun shot? Not the last gun shot? Ike If a internal hammered shotgun was opened, then closed, with nothing else done, the hammers would still be cocked. 2 steps with a closed, cocked SG at any time on the firing line is a SDQ SHB PG 23 Quote Changing location with a long gun with the action closed and the hammer cocked (exception for rifle from the loading table to the stage with no round chambered). If you pulled the triggers and dropped the hammers down on the empty chambers, NC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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