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Question regarding miss/flow and WTC


Tennessee williams

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3 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

No, cause target 10 didnt get hit. That means they all werent.

They all hit rifle targets. All 10 shots hit rifle targets. They all hit the correct TYPE target. What would you like it to say. We can print you your own book just how you like it. LOL

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7 minutes ago, Flash said:

So you want the book to tell you that if you put it down it is not in hand anymore?

No, but in hand shouldnt be defined as from unholster to reholster if you get penalized for swapping hands because it is leaving the hand. 

 

If you draw first pistol and shoot it dry and lay it on the table it is STILL CONSIDERED IN HAND. 

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8 minutes ago, Flash said:

They all hit rifle targets. All 10 shots hit rifle targets. They all hit the correct TYPE target. What would you like it to say. We can print you your own book just how you like it. LOL

All the shots hit rifle targets that is true. But, that ain't what is asked. It asks if all the correct target types were hit.

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1 minute ago, Tennessee williams said:

All the shots hit rifle targets that is true. But, that ain't what is asked. It asks if all the correct target types were hit.

They were all of the rifle type so the answer is yes.

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1 minute ago, Tennessee williams said:

Lol, no.  ALL of the correct target types were not hit. #10

You are correct that all the targets were not hit but all the targets that were hit were all the right type.

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There are only three types of targets for purposes of scoring. Pistol, Rifle, and Shotgun. If you shoot the rifle targets with your pistol they are misses, if you shoot the pistol target with your shotgun they are misses, if you shoot the shotgun targets with your pistol those are also misses. Even if you hit them all. 

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Just now, Flash said:

There are only three types of targets for purposes of scoring. Pistol, Rifle, and Shotgun. If you shoot the rifle targets with your pistol they are misses, if you shoot the pistol target with your shotgun they are misses, if you shoot the shotgun targets with your pistol those are also misses. Even if you hit them all. 

I agree with that too

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21 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

No, but in hand shouldnt be defined as from unholster to reholster if you get penalized for swapping hands because it is leaving the hand. 

 

If you draw first pistol and shoot it dry and lay it on the table it is STILL CONSIDERED IN HAND. 

 

How about starting another thread instead of switching gears in the middle of this one.

The "in hand" definition was added to clarify the penalty for a non-GF/BW shooter having two LOADED revolvers "in hand" at the same time whether they started holstered or staged.
An additional clarification was recently added regarding negating the "out of category" penalty before cocking either revolver. (
SHB p.6)

 

 

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11 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

How about starting another thread instead of switching gears in the middle of this one.

The "in hand" definition was added to clarify the penalty for a non-GF/BW shooter having two LOADED revolvers "in hand" at the same time whether they started holstered or staged.
An additional clarification was recently added regarding negating the "out of category" penalty before cocking either revolver. (
SHB p.6)

 

 

I can't hang with 2 threads. These guys are tearing me up! It's about as much fun as shootin'. I'll save the "in-hand" one for another time when I'm bored or something. 

I better go do something Valentiney with the bunkhouse boss. I'll be back later.

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2 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

I can't hang with 2 threads. These guys are tearing me up! It's about as much fun as shootin'. I'll save the "in-hand" one for another time when I'm bored or something. 

I better go do something Valentiney with the bunkhouse boss. I'll be back later.

 

Fun for YOU, maybe<_<

Take your time! :P

 

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11 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

Anybody have any comments on a pistol that came from a holster being considered remaining "in hand" until it is returned to the holster?

What happens if you lay it on the table? Is it still in hand?

 

11 hours ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

 

Ahhhh I see....this is a I’m smarter than everyone else let me prove it post. 

 

Peace out. Enjoy. 

 

Stan

 

PS. The question were all the correct TYPES hit. “Of targets” is an adjectival prepositional phrase telling us which or what kind of TYPES. 

Or change the topic I'm getting proven wrong again post. 

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I'm with TW on this one, here's why. The way we score a KD is different than a Stationary Plate (S) and it is in the stage instructions. It's not "missed KD can be made up" it's "Any KD left standing can be made up". As has been pointed out it doesn't matter how the KD fell so long as it is down, it is scored as a "hit". Any left standing are scored as a "miss" doesn't matter if you actually hit it with a shot or not, it didn't fall = Miss. Now when you have 6 KDs and 6 rounds to "Knock them all down" if your 1st shot knocks them all down and you shoot the remaining 5 into the berm, are they misses? No! You fired 6 rounds and 6 Kds are down = clean. But it took you 7 rounds to do it Earning a P. Scoring wise you are still "clean" however you don't have enough ammo to hit the remaining 4 targets. By using 2 rounds to get a hit on 1 KD the shooter "pushed" the miss to the end of the string by not having enough ammo to complete the string. If you had 10 KDs and 10 rounds, it takes you 2 rounds to take down target 5 so you don't have enough ammo to take down target 10, it's a miss on target 10, not target 5. Just because we switched from KD to S plates the same logic should apply. 

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29 minutes ago, Kingsley said:

Wow, the only thing I got out of all these bazaar post, is who I want/and don't want spotting for me.  

 

Cardboard Cowboy

 

I don't see how a bad choice of words in the shb affect spotting. Thats just me though. Pet the dog for me!

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On 2/13/2020 at 10:36 PM, Tennessee williams said:

Ok, first off. This is not a debate about the closed WTC threads. Those are closed and I'd like to get some feedback regarding the miss flow chart and what difference any interpretations would have made. This thought process is straight forward but not really the norm. 

 

Following along the lines of the recently closed WTC thread just to have a reference. 

 

The miss flow chart asks: "Did the shooter HIT all of the correct target types with the correct type ammo? If yes- no misses, If no-assess miss." 

Now, my question:

  Everybody always uses (i.e. rifle) or (i.e. pistol) added on to the chart in order to explain that is what is meant. The chart doesn't actually say that. Could it be interpreted to not only differentiate pistol targets from rifle targets but ALSO between KDs and stationary targets? Or even circle targets and square targets within the same firearm type? After all, the miss flow chart says target type not firearm type. IMO, if we used the latter interpretation it would be more simple. Although I agree with the call of only a P going by the current interpretation of the miss flow chart, I see why people have a problem with it. There were technically 2 targets that were not HIT, one of which could be made up with the SG. The latter interpretation would have resulted in a P and a miss which seems like the more appropriate call in this circumstance.

   There you have it. What say you?

Screenshot_20200213-220038_Drive.jpg

 

I went back to the closed WTC Thread and several folks had a good explanation but I liked this one from Marauder as it made it easy to follow.

 

 

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Remember that there were no unfired rounds.  A P cannot causse" a miss."

 

So go through the flow chart, step by step.

 

Did the shooter hit all the correct type of targets with legally acquired ammo?

No - assess misses.  1 Miss

 

Were the targets engaged in the correct order except for misses - no,

Was a clean miss allowed by the set up - yes - assess procedure.

 

(When did they earn the procedure - when they took two shots at target 5.)

So they missed target 5 and due to their procedure did not have ammo for the last target.  Again, the P resulted in not having ammo for the last target - but the rules state a P and a miss cannot be both "awarded."

 

And the stage instructions say you can make up a miss on the plate rack with the shotgun, which the shooter did.

 

So score 1 P.

 

In generally, if you have a string of 10 targets, miss a middle one, get confused and try again, thus leaving the last target, you get a P only.  You are not given both a miss and a P for the one mistake.

 

I don't see any point in trying to distinguish targets (as far as for the Miss Flow Chart) any more than simply Rifle, Pistol or Shotgun. 

 

I'm not saying that in the heat of the battle I would have made the correct call on the closed WTC thread but I am saying that adding more to the MFC would not have helped anything. Right now I don't think we need to add anything else to the rules.

 

IMHO

Randy

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18 minutes ago, Hendo said:

Personally, I recommend a nice, smooth Woodford 3 grain whiskey. 

 

And I'm at a no miss, because a can't cause an M.

 

While I personally only use it for rheumatism and snake bite I prefer Jack Daniel's

 

Randy

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59 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

I don't see how a bad choice of words in the shb affect spotting. Thats just me though. Pet the dog for me!

Has nothing to do with the words in the sub.  It's just all the weird opinions, penalty's and misunderstandings of this post and the closed post.  This has turned into a continuation of the closed post.  And the puppy is doing well, she thanks you for the pet, but she really wanted a cookie.  Which I did give her from you.  See you in Alabama.

 

CC

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2 hours ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

 

I'm not saying that in the heat of the battle I would have made the correct call on the closed WTC thread but I am saying that adding more to the MFC would not have helped anything. Right now I don't think we need to add anything else to the rules.

 

IMHO

Randy

Hey Randy. I truncated the quote for space.

   I actually have agreed with the call of a P and no misses since the first WTC thread. Because we have been shooting a while and understand the question asked at the beginning of the Miss flow chart. My whole point on the closed thread was to try and explain why some people don't get it at first. And that is because the question at the head of the miss/flow chart is worded incorrectly. Instead of asking if all of the SHOTS have hit the correct target type, it asks if all of the TARGETS were hit with the correct ammo type. The first thing they say is no. The last target was not hit at all. We as shooters that have been in it a few years know it means shots, but newer shooters read it for what it literally says, and that is targets. 

If the miss flow chart said: "Did all of the shots hit the correct target type" There wouldn't be this much confusion. That holds true with other ill-defined terms in the SHB. 

Do you see where I am coming from?

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4 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

Hey Randy. I truncated the quote for space.

   I actually have agreed with the call of a P and no misses since the first WTC thread. Because we have been shooting a while and understand the question asked at the beginning of the Miss flow chart. My whole point on the closed thread was to try and explain why some people don't get it at first. And that is because the question at the head of the miss/flow chart is worded incorrectly. Instead of asking if all of the SHOTS have hit the correct target type, it asks if all of the TARGETS were hit with the correct ammo type. The first thing they say is no. The last target was not hit at all. We as shooters that have been in it a few years know it means shots, but newer shooters read it for what it literally says, and that is targets. 

If the miss flow chart said: "Did all of the shots hit the correct target type" There wouldn't be this much confusion. That holds true with other ill-defined terms in the SHB. 

Do you see where I am coming from?

 

May I suggest that you compile a list comprised of the faulty MFC verbiage and "other ill-defined terms in the SHB" over the next 9 months.

At the end of that time period (mid-November), submit the list to the ROC (you can email it to me if I'm still on the Committee) for consideration.

That will give the ROC a full month to discuss the merits of any proposed edits to the SHB (which is only revised once a year).

 

That would be more advisable than attempting to keep this thread alive on the "front page" until then. 

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I reckon we all oughta be happy that I didn't put the whiskey bottle down long enough to make a humorous, yet snarky, comment about tenderized horse flesh. 

 

 

Oh, wait... :D

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15 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

May I suggest that you compile a list comprised of the faulty MFC verbiage and "other ill-defined terms in the SHB" over the next 9 months.

At the end of that time period (mid-November), submit the list to the ROC (you can email it to me if I'm still on the Committee) for consideration.

That will give the ROC a full month to discuss the merits of any proposed edits to the SHB (which is only revised once a year).

 

That would be more advisable than attempting to keep this thread alive on the "front page" until then. 

Sure, I can do that. I don't think even I can talk enough to keep this on the front page until then. Matter of fact, I've said my piece and folks were civilized about it. I appreciate that. Lock her down if you want, and we can get back to making fun of Widder.

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8 minutes ago, Hendo said:

I reckon we all oughta be happy that I didn't put the whiskey bottle down long enough to make a humorous, yet snarky, comment about tenderized horse flesh. 

 

 

Oh, wait... :D

 

This the one I usually post at this point:

 

dead horse.jpg

 

 

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