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Question regarding miss/flow and WTC


Tennessee williams

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2 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

No matter how you rewrite the rules there will always be situations that aren’t perfectly captured by the SHB. For example, on the original WTC that inspired this thread, I misread the OP and thought that any of the reactive targets left standing would be made up with the SG on those SAME targets. That’s why I thought after six shots the target TYPE switched to SG and therefore round 7 from the rifle would be a miss since it hit what had become a shotgun target. The change in interpretation suggested wouldn’t clear that up.

Bill if the wording was written like you originally thought I would say that those KD's are still rifle targets. Just because they could be hit with the shotgun at some point doesn't mean they are no longer rifle targets. Let's say you have 10 targets that you sweep with the rifle and then with the pistol. You wouldn't say that once target 1 was hit with the rifle it was now just a pistol target .....think double tapping the first target with the rifle. It would be P even though the next hit on target 1 should have been from the pistol.

 

Stan

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I'm a newbie, the more I read these posts the more I is confused :wacko::blink::wacko::blink::wacko::blink::wacko::blink::wacko::blink::wacko::blink::wacko::blink:STOP IT, PLEASE!!!!

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11 minutes ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

Bill if the wording was written like you originally thought I would say that those KD's are still rifle targets. Just because they could be hit with the shotgun at some point doesn't mean they are no longer rifle targets. Let's say you have 10 targets that you sweep with the rifle and then with the pistol. You wouldn't say that once target 1 was hit with the rifle it was now just a pistol target .....think double tapping the first target with the rifle. It would be P even though the next hit on target 1 should have been from the pistol.

 

Stan

I can’t say you’re wrong, but my point was more that no matter how the rules are written unique circumstances will lead to conflicting interpretations.  I enjoyed the discussion on the original thread even though I made the wrong call.

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2 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I can’t say you’re wrong, but my point was more that no matter how the rules are written unique circumstances will lead to conflicting interpretations.  I enjoyed the discussion on the original thread even though I made the wrong call.

Point agreed upon......

 

Stan

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54 minutes ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

To play devils advocate.....following the current flow chart. If you hit the incorrect target type for the firearm you are shooting it's only a MISS.....if we create 2 targets types (reactive and stationary) then doesn't it stand to reason then that the round fired at the stationary target that hit the reactive target was a MISS only and no P would be earned.

 

Stan

No. Try to follow me. According to the wording of the current flow chart it asks exactly this:

Did the shooter hit all of the correct type targets with the correct type ammo? Shots or rounds fired are not mentioned, only targets. In the WTC you reference, target 5 was not initially hit. Target 10 never got hit. That is 2 targets that were not hit. One of them was made up. That leaves one target that was not hit.

 

Now. If the question asked on the miss flow chart asked Did all of the shots fired hit a correct target type the answer would be: shot 1 through 5 hit. Shot 6 missed and was later made up. Shots 7 through 10 hit. That equals no misses since the make up. BUT that is not what is asked by the miss flow chart. It doesnt ask about rounds fired. It asks about targets hit. Do you see where I am coming from now?

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I'm still thinking where the confusion flies in in this particular WTC from the 7th layer of purgatory comes in at is that the stage instructions as stated in the OP AND the print of the actual stage instructions. Both say that a missed KD can be made up with the SG on the bell. It doesn't say that any missed rifle shot could be made up on the bell.

 

And for the record, I don't think my coffee is doing its job today.

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This is not directed at anyone. Not the OP, of the WTC, not the OP of the second, and not this one. This is strictly meant as humor, so please take it that way.

But after three posts on the topic, I'm thinking that PWB just might start to see himself as Mclintock.^_^

 

 

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19 minutes ago, Marshal Chance Morgun said:

This is not directed at anyone. Not the OP, of the WTC, not the OP of the second, and not this one. This is strictly meant as humor, so please take it that way.

After three posts on the topic, I'm thinking the PWB just might start to see himself as Mclintock.^_^

 

 

That's funny! But this topic is definitely not about those WTC threads...

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55 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

No. Try to follow me. According to the wording of the current flow chart it asks exactly this:

Did the shooter hit all of the correct type targets with the correct type ammo? Shots or rounds fired are not mentioned, only targets. In the WTC you reference, target 5 was not initially hit. Target 10 never got hit. That is 2 targets that were not hit. One of them was made up. That leaves one target that was not hit.

 

Now. If the question asked on the miss flow chart asked Did all of the shots fired hit a correct target type the answer would be: shot 1 through 5 hit. Shot 6 missed and was later made up. Shots 7 through 10 hit. That equals no misses since the make up. BUT that is not what is asked by the miss flow chart. It doesnt ask about rounds fired. It asks about targets hit. Do you see where I am coming from now?

You keep saying target 10 wasn’t hit....you can’t assign another miss to it because of the P. 

 

9 rifle rounds hit 9 rifle targets.....resulting in 1 miss not 2. That’s seems pretty straight forward.  

 

Stan

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9 minutes ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

You keep saying target 10 wasn’t hit....you can’t assign another miss to it because of the P. 

 

9 rifle rounds hit 9 rifle targets.....resulting in 1 miss not 2. That’s seems pretty straight forward.  

 

Stan

So the final call should be a and a M?

(I'm trying ice tea, now.)

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44 minutes ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

You keep saying target 10 wasn’t hit....you can’t assign another miss to it because of the P. 

I keep saying that because it is literally the question asked by the flow chart. 

44 minutes ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

 

9 rifle rounds hit 9 rifle targets.....resulting in 1 miss not 2. That’s seems pretty straight forward.  

 

Stan

The flow chart does not ask where a round goes that comes out of a gun. It asks whether or not a target was hit. That is my point. I understand what is meant, but that is not what is asked. There is a difference if you just think about it.

It should read: Did all rounds fired hit the correct firearm target type. Answer to this is no, target 5 was missed but made up.

Not: Were all targets hit with the correct firearm type. Because the answer to this would be no, the 5th engaged target was not hit. The last target was not hit. That is 2 targets not hit 1 of which was made up. Still leaving 1 miss the way the question is asked regardless of the question intended.

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Again you are phrasing the flow statement incorrectly.  It does not say did the shooter hit all the targets....It says....did the shooter hit all the correct type of targets with legally acquired ammo? There is a  difference. 

 

10 rifle targets....single tap each target is the instruction. Shooter double taps the first target.  The last target never gets hit. What is your call?

 

Stan

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1 hour ago, Hendo said:

So the final call should be a and a M?

(I'm trying ice tea, now.)

If you’re referring to the other thread No. in that instance the shooter was allowed to make up the miss with the shotgun. P only

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17 minutes ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

Again you are phrasing the flow statement incorrectly.  It does not say did the shooter hit all the targets....It says....did the shooter hit all the correct type of targets with legally acquired ammo? There is a  difference. 

Brother, I been saying it verbatim. It ain't my fault it doesn't say what it should.

17 minutes ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

 

10 rifle targets....single tap each target is the instruction. Shooter double taps the first target.  The last target never gets hit. What is your call?

 

Stan

This is my point. The way it is written would be a miss. Case in point: was the 10th target in your scenario hit with legally acquired ammo? Yes or no

 

Surely to God people are having a lightbulb go off in there head about now. Saying, oh! That's what he means. But, not many (I did have some messages saying they do) will admit they smell what I am cooking.

Screenshot_20200213-220038_Drive.jpg

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2 minutes ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

If you’re referring to the other thread No. in that instance the shooter was allowed to make up the miss with the shotgun. P only

Yeah, the other thread that caused all of this mess. 

The instructions were specific that the KDs could be made up. Not the statics.

 

(Hang on, switching to whiskey.)

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3 hours ago, Arizona Gunfighter said:

I'm a newbie, the more I read these posts the more I is confused :wacko::blink::wacko::blink::wacko::blink::wacko::blink::wacko::blink::wacko::blink::wacko::blink:STOP IT, PLEASE!!!!

 

I guess we could poke yer eyes out.  That oughta keep you from reading them. 

 

I find it fascinating how people can interpret basic words and phrases differently.  I bet PWB and other ROC members use a word other than fascinating.  I don't think anyone is trying to be pedantic or stir the pot, I think it's legitimate thoughtful disagreement. 

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3 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

No. Try to follow me. According to the wording of the current flow chart it asks exactly this:

Did the shooter hit all of the correct type targets with the correct type ammo? Shots or rounds fired are not mentioned, only targets. In the WTC you reference, target 5 was not initially hit. Target 10 never got hit. That is 2 targets that were not hit. One of them was made up. That leaves one target that was not hit.

 

Let us try it this way. Ten targets, shoot each one once. Shooter shoots 9 of them then shoots the 9th one again. The call would be Clean with a P. He shot all the correct type target with the legally acquired ammo. He does not get a miss because he didn't shoot the 10th target. Does this help?

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3 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

No. Try to follow me. According to the wording of the current flow chart it asks exactly this:

Did the shooter hit all of the correct type targets with the correct type ammo? Shots or rounds fired are not mentioned, only targets. In the WTC you reference, target 5 was not initially hit. Target 10 never got hit. That is 2 targets that were not hit. One of them was made up. That leaves one target that was not hit.

 

If this was the meaning of the flowchart, there would be no need for a procedural penalty to exist.  Or, if it did, it would only apply to people shooting from the wrong location, or not doing some extra task.  Think about a stage with 2 targets and the instructions are to start on the right and alternate.  But instead the shooter starts on the left and alternates and makes the targets clang 10 times.  You're arguing that should be 10 misses and a P.  Does that sound right to you? 

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8 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Brother, I been saying it verbatim. It ain't my fault it doesn't say what it should.

This is my point. The way it is written would be a miss. Case in point: was the 10th target in your scenario hit with legally acquired ammo? Yes or no

 

Surely to God people are having a lightbulb go off in there head about now. Saying, oh! That's what he means. But, not many (I did have some messages saying they do) will admit they smell what I am cooking.

Screenshot_20200213-220038_Drive.jpg

You’re not saying it verbatim. It Does not ask if all the targets were hit. It asks if all the correct type of targets were hit. That allows for the correct type of target to be hit in the wrong order and not be counted as a miss. 

 

Until you accept that you will continue to struggle with theses calls. If you call my example a P and a Miss you’re wrong. The ROC says you’re wrong. 

 

The only reason the other thread went sideways was the intermingling of reactive targets and stationary targets and folks confusing them as different types. 

 

I doubt any any of those guys would call my 10 target example a P and a Miss because it’s not. 

 

Stan

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9 minutes ago, Flash said:

Let us try it this way. Ten targets, shoot each one once. Shooter shoots 9 of them then shoots the 9th one again. The call would be Clean with a P. He shot all the correct type target with the legally acquired ammo. 

 

No, he didn't shoot ALL of them.

9 minutes ago, Flash said:

He does not get a miss because he didn't shoot the 10th target. Does this help?

I understand this is how it is, and is supposed to be. What I am saying is that is not how the question is asked. 

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3 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

No, he didn't shoot ALL of them.

I understand this is how it is, and is supposed to be. What I am saying is that is not how the question is asked. 

That is the way I read it. Did he hit all the correct TYPE targets?

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3 minutes ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

You’re not saying it verbatim.

Yes, I have said it word for word every time.

3 minutes ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

It Does not ask if all the targets were hit. It asks if all the correct type of targets were hit. That allows for the correct type of target to be hit in the wrong order and not be counted as a miss. 

Yes. As it does both ways.

3 minutes ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

 

Until you accept that you will continue to struggle with theses calls. If you call my example a P and a Miss you’re wrong. The ROC says you’re wrong. 

I haven't struggled with what the call is. I have agreed that the call is a P even though it is written incorrectly.

3 minutes ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

 

The only reason the other thread went sideways was the intermingling of reactive targets and stationary targets and folks confusing them as different types. 

Dont care about the other thread.

3 minutes ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

 

I doubt any any of those guys would call my 10 target example a P and a Miss because it’s not. 

Me either. Because I been doing it long enough to know what it should say compared to what it actually says.

3 minutes ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

 

Stan

 

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3 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

When was target 10 hit?

Target 10 was not hit but he hit all rifle targets so no misses. If he would have shot the 10 pistol targets with his rifle he would have 10 misses.

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9 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Yes, I have said it word for word every time.

Yes. As it does both ways.

I haven't struggled with what the call is. I have agreed that the call is a P even though it is written incorrectly.

Dont care about the other thread.

Me either. Because I been doing it long enough to know what it should say compared to what it actually says.

 

 

Ahhhh I see....this is a I’m smarter than everyone else let me prove it post. 

 

Peace out. Enjoy. 

 

Stan

 

PS. The question were all the correct TYPES hit. “Of targets” is an adjectival prepositional phrase telling us which or what kind of TYPES. 

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3 minutes ago, Flash said:

Target 10 was not hit but he hit all rifle targets so no misses. If he would have shot the 10 pistol targets with his rifle he would have 10 misses.

The exact question asked is: Did the shooter hit all the correct type of targets with legally acquired ammo. 

Now. What should it say?

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2 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Anybody have any comments on a pistol that came from a holster being considered remaining "in hand" until it is returned to the holster?

What happens if you lay it on the table? Is it still in hand?

No, and if you switch hands it is not still in hand. But it is in hand from when you clear the holster till it is returned to the holster. You can be holding the pistol with the end of the barrel still in the opening of your holster and it is not in hand until it clears the holster.

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3 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

The exact question asked is: Did the shooter hit all the correct type of targets with legally acquired ammo. 

Now. What should it say?

It says exactly what it needs to say. Did it hit all the correct TYPE.

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1 minute ago, Flash said:

No, and if you switch hands it is not still in hand. But it is in hand from when you clear the holster till it is returned to the holster. You can be holding the pistol with the end of the barrel still in the opening of your holster and it is not in hand until it clears the holster.

Exactly what I am saying. In hand is defined in the SHB from the time a pistol clears leather until it returns to leather. 

Swap hands with a cocked revolver and you get a sdq for it leaving your hand though. See what I am getting at?

Screenshot_20190320-072732_Chrome.jpg

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2 minutes ago, Flash said:

It says exactly what it needs to say. Did it hit all the correct TYPE.

 

Correct

 

Were all the correct TYPES hit. “Of targets” is an adjectival prepositional phrase telling us which or what kind of TYPES. 

 

Stan

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4 minutes ago, Flash said:

It says exactly what it needs to say. Did it hit all the correct TYPE.

No, cause target 10 didnt get hit. That means that ALL the correct type targets werent hit. Did all the ROUNDS fired hit a correct target? Yes they did. 

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TWO targets.

Alternate 10 rounds starting on L or R

L-R-...then misses with the other 8 shots.

"Did the shooter hit all the correct type targets with legally acquired ammo?"
YES?? (he hit BOTH targets) > Assess no misses
"Did the shooter engage the targets in the correct order?"

YES?? > (he alternated) No further call

 

Let's just dispense with that (apparently flawed and useless) Miss Flow Chart altogether.
<_<

 

I'm done with this.

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