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Barry Sloe

The Muddy Waters of the Rules

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Trying to summarize.

Stage instructions - with rifle shoot the plate rack (6 knockdowns) then alternate 4 shots on 2 stationary targets.  Any plates left standing could be made up with the SG. 

In a very recent WTC:

  • shooter missed a shot at a rifle knockdown plate, then earned a P by using 7 shots to knockdown the 6 knockdowns.  Shooter only used 3 shots vs 4 on the alternating targets because of the missed shot.  Stage instructions allowed misses on rifle knockdowns to be made up by shotgun.  At the end of the string TO made shooter shoot 1 SG makeup.
  • during the discussion of the WTC it was said that since the shooter had wasted the extra time shooting the SG makeup (all the rifle knockdowns were down) that there was no extra penalty earned.  Only penalty earned was the P for the extra shot on the knockdown plate.

I've got two problems with the logic. 

  1)  Shooter got a re-shoot for being made to engage the SG makeup target (remember that all the knockdowns were down).  Ruled as TO interference.  This not only doesn't penalize the shooter for the miss, but actually gives them a bonus.

  2)  Remember the rifle miss on the plate rack.  Go to the Miss Flow Chart.  1st question - "DID THE SHOOTER HIT ALL THE CORRECT TYPE OF TARGETS WITH LEGALLY ACQUIRED AMMO?"  Since the question has the word "ALL" it makes my answer NO because the 4th alternating target was not shot at.  Flow chart states - assess misses.  The 4th alternating shot was not made because of the miss on the plate.

 

I know the old adage that a Miss cannot cause a P.  

Here we had a Miss (missed the knockdown), THEN a P (using 7 shots vs 6 on the knockdowns instead of using the SG makeup).  The miss here counts because there was not a round to engage the 4th alternating shot.  ALL the correct type of target were not hit.

 

I do spend time trying to get the rules straight.  It doesn't work all the time.

 

Regards,

Barry Sloe

 

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23 minutes ago, Barry Sloe said:

  2)  Remember the rifle miss on the plate rack.  Go to the Miss Flow Chart.  1st question - "DID THE SHOOTER HIT ALL THE CORRECT TYPE OF TARGETS WITH LEGALLY ACQUIRED AMMO?"  Since the question has the word "ALL" it makes my answer NO because the 4th alternating target was not shot at.  Flow chart states - assess misses.  The 4th alternating shot was not made because of the miss on the plate.

I just want to point out that "ALL" refers to "CORRECT TYPE OF TARGET" not all targets. They were "ALL" rifle targets. So they were "ALL" the correct type. Answer = YES

Edited by Flash
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38 minutes ago, Barry Sloe said:

Trying to summarize.

Stage instructions - with rifle shoot the plate rack (6 knockdowns) then alternate 4 shots on 2 stationary targets.  Any plates left standing could be made up with the SG. 

In a very recent WTC:

  • shooter missed a shot at a rifle knockdown plate, then earned a P by using 7 shots to knockdown the 6 knockdowns.  Shooter only used 3 shots vs 4 on the alternating targets because of the missed shot.  Stage instructions allowed misses on rifle knockdowns to be made up by shotgun.  At the end of the string TO made shooter shoot 1 SG makeup.
  • .................................................................

 

Quote

 

The "P" was for HITTING the wrong RIFLE target with the 7th shot on plate #6 instead of on a buffalo target.

That does NOT also incur a MISS on a buffalo target as it was a HIT on a "correct type" of target (i.e. RIFLE).

"Correct type" (in the Miss Flow Chart) refers to a target assigned to a specific firearm...NOT to "KD vs stationary"...they were ALL RIFLE targets.

 

SOURCE

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The 'Rules' are always the rules.   But there are times where the circumstances of the stage

will make even the best intentions of those who try to make correct calls

misunderstand the proper application.

 

Thats why we get on the Wire with our WTC and graciously have folks who keep up with

their proper interpretations, based on the actual circumstances.

 

..........Widder

 

Edited by Widder, SASS #59054
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I understand they were all rifle targets.  I also understand that all the rifle targets were not hit (5th shot was a miss) and 4th alternating shot was not made.  It's like the 5th shot didn't even happen. 

 

Widder- I know what you're saying.

 

BS 

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Write the stage more specifically to avoid the confusion....

 

 

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Please the entire (locked down) 5-page thread.

Some of the points mentioned in THIS OP were refuted or modified during that discussion.

 

The call made "on site" was a reshoot due to RO interference/improper coaching.

Match officials don't have the option of four days to make a determination.

 

IMO, the miss on the plate rack shot was made up with the shotgun...some disagreed with the reasoning behind that opinion.

I have no intention of reposting what has already been posted elsewhere.

 

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I will not dispute the procedural, that's obvious. I dispute the non-miss call. Seems like the shooter could have missed the plates 4 times, used 10 shots to take down 6 plates and only end up with a P. How on Earth does that work out?

 

Hell with it, I'm done with this WTC.

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PWB, 

I did keep up with the OP.  Go ahead and lock this thread.

There are a few WTCs that I don't understand how they got to the resolution they did.  I'll leave this one the same way. 

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12 minutes ago, Cypress Sun said:

Seems like the shooter could have missed the plates 4 times, used 10 shots to take down 6 plates and only end up with a P

 

I know it is going to extremes, but if shots 7, 8, 9, or 10 didn't HIT either a buffalo or a rifle plate, they must be scored as a MISS. The instructions did not provide a shooter the opportunity to make up a MISS on any of the last four shots. In this case, however, shots 7-10 all HIT the appropriate type of target using the appropriate type of firearm.

 

SHB pg 22

Quote

A  MISS  is  defined  as  the  failure  to  hit  the  appropriate  target type  using  the  appropriate  type  of firearm

 

12 minutes ago, Cypress Sun said:

I dispute the non-miss call.

 

14 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

IMO, the miss on the plate rack shot was made up with the shotgun

 

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If I am the shooter who disagrees with a scoring decision, I will respectfully appeal. 
 

If I am the Timer Operator and I question the spotters’ decision, I will inform the scorekeeper of the decision then urge the shooter to appeal.  
 

If I am a spotter and I am not sure how to score the shooter, I will give my reasoning to my fellow spotters and the TO.

 

 If I am the Match Director and presented with an appeal that I am not sure how to score myself and those I may consult also seem unsure about, I’ll give the shooter a reshoot, because benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter.

 

That’s how I would handle it.  I’m open for critique.

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PLUS ONE too J-BAR.

 

AND, All too often the knee-jerk reaction is to immediately jump up and penalize the shooter.  Especially here on the wire.  Near everybody seem to forget "Benefit of the Doubt goes to THE SHOOTER"   Stop and think.  This a game.  We all pay to play,  There is no Pearlescent White Caddy Escalade for first place.  Does everyone just forget this is suppose to FUN????  Playing "Who Flung Dung" is not necessarily FUN.

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16 hours ago, Barry Sloe said:

  1)  Shooter got a re-shoot for being made to engage the SG makeup target (remember that all the knockdowns were down).  Ruled as TO interference.  This not only doesn't penalize the shooter for the miss, but actually gives them a bonus.

 

Just about everybody agrees that there is a P.  The discussion seems to revolve around whether to call a Miss or not.  Not having been there or been in the R.O.s head makes it extremely hard to "Thursday morning quarterback"...

Most shooters are not "Top Shooters".  When timing, I have noted some "average" shooters take as long as 11 seconds from last cartridge shot to first shotshell fired.  There may have been even more time lost here as the shooter was not expecting to go to the shotgun at that point at all, since the target was down.

 

There was no safety penalty to carry forward in a reshoot.  The T.O. felt he made a bad call, costing the shooter undue time.  So, he rightly offered a reshoot.  That is not awarding a bonus, that is being a good T.O.  

 

 

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Fun......Schmun!!!

 

The fun is in aggressively shooting the targets AND CONTESTING decisions you do not agree with!  It’s part of “the Game”, in my opinion

 

Trying to defuse discussions like this by locking is NOT fun.  Let them go.  There’s a point where things such as personal, one-on-one direct insults and name calling should raise the red flag, but not until then.

 

I DONT LIKE IT when some Moderator makes “decisions” to shut down a Topic/discussion because it’s “running too long” or the discussion becomes heated, or worse, the Moderator thinks it has the potential to “go South”.  That is just wrong, in my opinion. 

 

My opinion is, that if the Moderator wants to get involved, “they” should reply with a (canned) cautionary statement to try to defuse what they believe to be “real issues”.  After that, if it becomes necessary to lock the topic, then do so.  However, a lot of people follow the long, involved topics, and don’t like it when they are locked.  I’m one of them.  If someone doesn’t like the way a Topic is going, then I suggest that they STOP READING IT!!

 

Cat Brules

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The reason the original thread was "locked" was the OP's indication that the question had been adequately addressed and answered:

Quote

We will know how to call it in the future.  Wish you were all there when it happened.  We would still be there.  LOL  Thanks everyone and good night!!! 

 

Further discussion was getting repetitive.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Cat Brules said:

Fun......Schmun!!!

 

The fun is in aggressively shooting the targets AND CONTESTING decisions you do not agree with!  It’s part of “the Game”, in my opinion

 

Trying to defuse discussions like this by locking is NOT fun.  Let them go.  There’s a point where things such as personal, one-on-one direct insults and name calling should raise the red flag, but not until then.

 

I DONT LIKE IT when some Moderator makes “decisions” to shut down a Topic/discussion because it’s “running too long” or the discussion becomes heated, or worse, the Moderator thinks it has the potential to “go South”.  That is just wrong, in my opinion. 

 

My opinion is, that if the Moderator wants to get involved, “they” should reply with a (canned) cautionary statement to try to defuse what they believe to be “real issues”.  After that, if it becomes necessary to lock the topic, then do so.  However, a lot of people follow the long, involved topics, and don’t like it when they are locked.  I’m one of them.  If someone doesn’t like the way a Topic is going, then I suggest that they STOP READING IT!!

 

Cat Brules

 

Let it go Louie, Let it go..............

Edited by Cypress Sun
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I think we should always shoot the shotgun last on every stage,  that way any missed rifle or pistol targets could be made up with the shotgun :P     That would be awesome!!!

 

Best regards,

 

Chili

 

 

 

 

 

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The thing that had me scratching my head the hardest in that thread were the people wanting to call 2 misses and a P. 

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Alright already!  Everyone has had a chance to be confused, abused or amused!  Lock this thread and move on - please!!

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Best I can do .....

 

 

image.png.d3d58ecae851c37451910461a3583036.png

 

;)

Edited by Yusta B.
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Being “repetitive” doesn’t mean a thing and should NOT be a reason to close, or “lock” a Topic.  In fact, I consider that rationale to be rude, discourteous and disrespectful.  Arrogant high-handedness is an ugly trait.  Who moderates the Moderator and reverses their “decisions”?  In the case in question, (and I’ve seen others), some members were not finished with the Topic.  Most Topics die a natural death.  Other Topics/threads go on and on, despite continuing, multiple, “repeated” replies by multiple members....and, they are not locked.  Some members actually request that a topic be locked....HEY!  What’s THAT all about?  If you don’t like the Topic, don’t read it.  I think that such subjective locking of busy Topics is as I stated above.

 

Oh well, I’m out of this one.


Cat Brules

Edited by Cat Brules

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1 hour ago, Cat Brules said:

Being “repetitive” doesn’t mean a thing and should NOT be a reason to close, or “lock” a Topic.  In fact, I consider that rationale to be rude, discourteous and disrespectful.  Arrogant high-handedness is an ugly trait.  Who moderates the Moderator and reverses their “decisions”?

...

...

Oh well, I’m out of this one.


Cat Brules

 

To address your "opinion" and answer the question:

 

Quote

•    Any attacks against the forum moderators, or any employee of The Single Action Shooting Society® will not be allowed. If you disagree with an action taken by a moderator, please contact the Wire Forum Administrator. 

GUIDELINES - SASS Wire Forum

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4 hours ago, Yusta B. said:

Best I can do .....

 

 

image.png.d3d58ecae851c37451910461a3583036.png

 

;)

 

Thanks!  That'll do.

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