Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

Recommended Posts

I think it's time for the moderators to close this thread before it goes completely sideways!

 

TB

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, Turquoise Bill, SASS #39118 said:

A "P" was earned when the shooter fired 7 rounds at the plate rack as the stage instruction clearly state 6 rounds on the plates, if 2 plates should fall by a gust of wind or act of God, or the adjacent shot, the shooter still has to fire 6 rounds, not 5 or 7, 6.

 

TB

The P was earned when the 7th fired round HIT a plate.  If the shooter had fired the 7th round at a plate and missed there would still be no P. 

 

Stan

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Depends upon what the spotters and TO saw.  If they can place the miss adjacent to a plate rack target, then they KNOW what target the shooter was engaging.  We were not there.  They were.  I'd trust what they reported.  There are some times where you can see the shooter's engaged target very clearly.  Especially when serving as the TO.

 

Good luck, GJ

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Depends upon what the spotters and TO saw.  If they can place the miss adjacent to a plate rack target, then they KNOW what target the shooter was engaging.  We were not there.  They were.  I'd trust what they reported.  There are some times where you can see the shooter's engaged target very clearly.  Especially when serving as the TO.

 

Good luck, GJ

No it really doesn’t depend on that. It only depends on HITS. The shooters Intent is not judged. That’s why the flow chart asks if the targets were HIT in the correct order except for misses. 

 

Stan

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, instructions were to ENGAGE the rack targets with 6 shots.   Engaging and missing a rack target with the 7th shot seems to be a Procedural the way the stage instructions read.   

 

Now, if the instructions said HIT the six rack targets - I could agree.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Well, instructions were to ENGAGE the rack targets with 6 shots.   Engaging and missing a rack target with the 7th shot seems to be a Procedural the way the stage instructions read.   

That would be a case of a miss causing a procedural.

Missing ANY target with the 7th shot would only be a miss.

Hitting the wrong rifle target with the 7th shot (designated for a buffalo) is a "P"...but NOT a miss on a buffalo (or any other rifle target)

The shooter's (obvious) intent is irrelevant.

 

Now, if the instructions said HIT the six rack targets - I could agree.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
edit txt
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is what I an getting out of this:  when the shooter shot and missed the 5th round he had a miss, then shot the 6th round and had a hit, then shot the 7th round  at the plate rack causing a procedural due to the engagement of the wrong target.  He then alternated the three targets and the procedural did not allow him to miss the 10th target.  (Procedural cannot cause a miss due to double jeopardy).   Then made up the miss with the shotgun.    Wouldn't that be a procedural with no misses?  

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Kirk James said:

This is what I an getting out of this:  when the shooter shot and missed the 5th round he had a miss, then shot the 6th round and had a hit, then shot the 7th round  at the plate rack causing a procedural due to the engagement of the wrong target.  He then alternated the three targets and the procedural did not allow him to miss the 10th target.  (Procedural cannot cause a miss due to double jeopardy).   Then made up the miss with the shotgun.    Wouldn't that be a procedural with no misses?  

 

That's how I see it.

The 6th KD was still standing when the shooter SHOULD HAVE moved to the buffalo targets.

That was my point earlier regarding the SG make up negating the missed plate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Years ago I was involved in helping to write some Navy-wide advancement exams.  It took 6 of us 2 weeks, using computers, reference books, statistical data from previous exams.  Every question was reviewed by a physiologist for the way it was worded.  All 6 of us had to review every question and every answer.  Lots of work to make sure everything was understood, clear and impartial. 

 

As I read all this I keep thinking to myself that after 5 pages over 2 days it's still being debated.  Everyone involved didn't have the luxury of this much time or debate, the match had to keep moving.  So moving forward what are we to do?  What's the answer?  A SASS class for stage writing? A mandatory review of the written stages before the match by SASS officials?  I say let's catch our breath, and try to remember to some CAS is a competitive sport and to others it's a game.  We cannot let everyone who disputes a questionable call get a reshoot.  So, I say let's thank the stage writer for doing the best they could, as a shooter realize that every call won't go our way and take our lumps. 

 

The "WTC" questions on The Wire are a great way for everyone to learn and air their thoughts.  Just keep in mind that the day you stop having fun is the day that you quit coming to local matches

 

Edited writing in is in red.

Edited by Tequila Chase
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, KH24 said:

Are you basically making the case if shooter shoots 10 rounds, misses one, and is out of order its only P because he made up the miss with the shotgun? 

This is were I disagree - If the instruction said make up any misses with the shotgun on the bell - yes - only a P.  But instructions said make up any standing KD targets  with shotgun.  There are no standing targets - hence no make up.

 

You're getting a bit ahead of me, but we'll get there.

 

Let us start back at the two questions you answered:

 

Did the 7th round hit the correct type target, i.e. rifle target with legally acquired ammo?   YES

 

Did the 7th round hit the correct target that the round should have hit given the stage instructions?  No

 

That 7th round could go a lot of places. Let us examine them for a minute.

 

That 7th round could have HIT the buffalo. That is scored as a HIT.

 

That 7th round could have just barely MISS the buffalo, going right over the top of it. That is scored as a MISS.

 

That 7th round could have HIT a pistol target. That is scored as a MISS.

 

That 7th round could have just barely MISS the plate on the rack, going just to the left of that cowboy plate. That is scored as a MISS.

 

That 7th round could have HIT the physical plate rack, not hitting any plates. that is scored as a MISS. 

 

But that 7th round HIT the rifle plate. As the 7th round should have hit a buffalo, they earned a PROCEDURAL.

 

Now, the stage writer originally claimed that the 7th round was scored as a MISS as it did not HIT a buffalo. That was in error:

 

  On 2/10/2020 at 7:46 PM, Turquoise Bill, SASS #39118 said:

Missed shots on the stationary targets are designated as misses in the stage instructions.

 

TB

 

  On 2/9/2020 at 9:28 PM, Turquoise Bill, SASS #39118 said:

The instructions were engage the 6 cowboys with 6 rounds, if the shooter fired 7 rounds at the 6 cowboys, that’s a P, and a miss for not engaging the Buffalos with 4 rounds.

 

TB

 

  On 2/10/2020 at 9:42 AM, Turquoise Bill, SASS #39118 said:

Shooter chose to re-engage the 5 plate after missing it, hence firing 7 rounds a the 6 plates, that's a P for not following stage instructions, that left him or her only 3 rounds left to fire at the Buffalos so hence the Miss.

 

He has since recanted:

 

9 hours ago, Turquoise Bill, SASS #39118 said:

A "P" was earned when the shooter fired 7 rounds at the plate rack as the stage instruction clearly state 6 rounds on the plates

 

So, we are on the same page:

 

At the time the 7th round HIT the rifle plate, the shooter earned a PROCEDURAL.

They still have three rounds left to fire, the first of which may hit either of the buffalo targets.

And, we still have to figure out what to do with the plate that was HIT with the 7th round.

 

 

Now, back to your statement:

 

11 hours ago, KH24 said:

This is were I disagree - If the instruction said make up any misses with the shotgun on the bell - yes - only a P.  But instructions said make up any standing KD targets  with shotgun.  There are no standing targets - hence no make up.

 

Am I understanding you correctly when you say that a shooter has no opportunity to engage a downed target? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

That's how I see it.

The 6th KD was still standing when the shooter SHOULD HAVE moved to the buffalo targets.

That was my point earlier regarding the SG make up negating the missed plate.

As many, I have been following this topic for the 5 pages.  I stayed away from posting until now.  I established my own opinion,  P & miss, early.  Now it seems that I was wrong, although I hold to my original opinion.  In my thinking,  when shooter fired 7th at plate rack he was shooting at the wrong target so because he/she hit it, gets a P, then a miss because the 7th shot did not hit a buf.  (If shooter had missed plate rack target on 7th round fired, I would not give P as I do not like to factor in "intent", but would have miss on Buf (although probably obvious that round was being fired at rack).  To me, it was not a miss that caused the P, perhaps one could say the P caused the miss call.

Agree shotgun make-up was all for addition time on clock.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator said:

As many, I have been following this topic for the 5 pages.  I stayed away from posting until now.  I established my own opinion,  P & miss, early.  Now it seems that I was wrong, although I hold to my original opinion.  In my thinking,  when shooter fired 7th at plate rack he was shooting at the wrong target so because he/she hit it, gets a P, then a miss because the 7th shot did not hit a buf.  (If shooter had missed plate rack target on 7th round fired, I would not give P as I do not like to factor in "intent", but would have miss on Buf (although probably obvious that round was being fired at rack).  To me, it was not a miss that caused the P, perhaps one could say the P caused the miss call.

Agree shotgun make-up was all for addition time on clock.

At 5 pages, changed my call.  The Hit on T7 caused the P for not having 4 rounds to engage the S targets. Misses on rack Do Not count if all the targets are down. (1 Hit takes down 2 or more targets; shoot where remaining targets were. If shooter missed the first 5 shot on the rack, on the 6th shot all the targets fall, does the shooter have a miss?  No ). The shotgun makeup was a waste of time, it did not correct the missed 5th round.  One P plus time lose shooting shotgun makeup.

Edited by KH24
Add comment

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Reasoning for determining misses on KD targets is different from S targets due to stage instructions that misses are only on KDs left standing. ( if not made up with shotgun on another target.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, KH24 said:

At 5 pages, changed my call.  The Hit on T7 caused the P for not having 4 rounds to engage the S targets. Misses on rack Do Not count if all the targets are down. (1 Hit takes down 2 or more targets; shoot where remaining targets were. If shooter missed the first 5 shot on the rack, on the 6th shot all the targets fall, does the shooter have a miss?  No ). The shotgun makeup was a waste of time, it did not correct the missed 5th round.  One P plus time lose shooting shotgun makeup.

 

So following "logic" so far, if the shooter missed shots 5, 6, 7 and 8 but hit the final two plates on the rack.....all he would have is a 1 - P? I still don't see how this is possible but I guess that "logic" must not apply.

 

Original (real) stage description does not state that misses on the plate rack don't count. It does say that any plates still standing on the plate rack will be misses. It also states that any plates left standing can be made up by shooting the bell with the shotgun. I guess following the previously applied "logic" that if shooter had missed all 6 plates but engaged the 4 shots correctly on the static targets and shot the bell once with the shotgun.....the shooter would be clean with no penalties.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is no question the shooter got a "P" by engaging the rack with 7 rounds contrary to stage instructions.

 

The question is, Did he also earn a miss by engaging the buffalos only three times?  No.

 

There were two separate rifle target arrays noted with different instructions for each where 6 shots are to engage the rack and 4 shots are to engage buffalos. 

 

The first array was shot incorrectly earning him a "P".  It is also where the shooter initially earned the miss on KD5.

 

He could only fire 3 rounds at the second array since that would be the total required number of rounds for the rifle portion of the stage, which would be an additional "P" for not following stage instructions for the second array, a condition created by the first "P".  Since you can only get one "P" per stage, the second "P" is negated by the first.  

 

Common sense tells us he made up for the miss on KD5 by shooting the bell, even though there were no standing plates, not the lack of the 4th round on the buffalo.

 

The call from my saddle is a "P".  There was no miss since the initially missed KD5 was made up on the bell per the stage instructions, no reshoot required for bad coaching as the make up was for the correct target type and position.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One more time:

The "P" was for HITTING the wrong RIFLE target with the 7th shot on plate #6 instead of on a buffalo target.

That does NOT also incur a MISS on a buffalo target as it was a HIT on a "correct type" of target (i.e. RIFLE).

"Correct type" (in the Miss Flow Chart) refers to a target assigned to a specific firearm...NOT to "KD vs stationary"...they were ALL RIFLE targets.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With all due respect, I am NOT disputing the P in any manner. I am saying that a 1 - Miss was also earned due to the stage wording of Any knockdown left standing can be made up with the shotgun engaging the bell" There were no  rifle knockdown targets remaining. 

 

What happened to the bullet that didn't hit anything?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Cypress Sun said:

With all due respect, I am NOT disputing the P in any manner. I am saying that a 1 - Miss was also earned due to the stage wording of Any knockdown left standing can be made up with the shotgun engaging the bell" There were no  rifle knockdown targets remaining. 

 

What happened to the bullet that didn't hit anything?

 

REPOSTING:

Quote

 

The 6th KD was still standing when the shooter SHOULD HAVE moved to the buffalo targets.

That was my point earlier regarding the SG make up negating the missed plate.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

There is no question the shooter got a "P" by engaging the rack with 7 rounds contrary to stage instructions.

 

 

 

He could only fire 3 rounds at the second array since that would be the total required number of rounds for the rifle portion of the stage, which would be an additional "P" for not following stage instructions for the second array, a condition created by the first "P".  Since you can only get one "P" per stage, the second "P" is negated by the first.  

 

 

JJ,

Oddly, I can follow this logic.

  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

REPOSTING:

 

 

Okay, thanks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Cypress Sun said:

What happened to the bullet that didn't hit anything?

 

Well, it continued on for a while, but having failed it's task, became depressed and lost the will to go on. It fell to the ground, hoping that someday, someone would reload it so it could have a second chance at hitting something.

  • Haha 5
  • Sad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We will know how to call it in the future.  Wish you were all there when it happened.  We would still be there.  LOL  Thanks everyone and good night!!! 

  • Haha 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.