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Kirk James

WTC

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Directions:  from position 1, with the rifle engage the 6 cowboys on the (plate) rack, then alternate on the two buffalo's for 4 rounds (buffalo are stationary targets).  Shooter hits the first four plates, misses the fifth, hits the fifth and sixth then alternates for 3 rounds.  Misses on the plate rack can be made up on a shotgun target which the shooter does.  Everything else is shot correctly.  WTC

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"P" for shooting 6th rifle round on target 5...

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P with no misses..the shooter did make good with the shotgun but only 3 on the buffalo instead of the instructed 4.

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The instructions were engage the 6 cowboys with 6 rounds, if the shooter fired 7 rounds at the 6 cowboys, that’s a P, and a miss for not engaging the Buffalos with 4 rounds.

 

TB

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Dang.

 

I would say that his Miss on #5 plate rack target earned him a legitimate Miss.

THEN.....when he engaged and hit it with the following shot, he earned the 'P'.

 

P & Miss.

 

..........Widder

 

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No makeups are allowed on missed rifle or pistol targets, unless stage description specifies it.   

 

P for shooting the makeup on KD 5, and a miss for not hitting the last stationary target.  P + "Round not fired scored as a Miss".

 

Good luck, GJ

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Here is my discussion point:

when the shooter fired his 6th round on target #5 (which he had just previously missed), that 

6th shot became his 'P'.    BECAUSE of that earned 'P', the round NOT FIRED at the buffalo can not

be counted as a Miss.

 

It would be the same as having 2 targets to engage 'alternately' but the shooter dumps all 10

rounds on one target.  No misses BUT..... one big 'P'.

 

..........Widder

 

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1 hour ago, Kirk James said:

Directions:  from position 1, with the rifle engage the 6 cowboys on the (plate) rack, then alternate on the two buffalo's for 4 rounds (buffalo are stationary targets).  Shooter hits the first four plates, misses the fifth, hits the fifth and sixth then alternates for 3 rounds.  Misses on the plate rack can be made up on a shotgun target which the shooter does.  Everything else is shot correctly.  WTC

 

P only.

The shooter made up the miss he earned on target #5 at the end with the shotgun per stage instructions.

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8 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

P only.

The shooter made up the miss he earned on target #5 at the end with the shotgun per stage instructions.

 

This is what is confusing to me.

OP states that the miss on #5 was made up with shot #6.   These were Plate Rack targets.

OP also states that #6 was hit.   This means that ALL 6 of the plate rack targets had been hit.

 

Then the OP states that the shooter uses the SG to make up misses on the Plate Rack..... but

according to the OP, all the Plate Rack targets had already been hit.

 

KIRK:   why was the SG used to make up plate rack targets when you stated that all 6 of them

had been hit?   Yes, you stated that #5 had been missed with the 5th round, but was then

hit with the 6th round.  

Honestly, this is confusing

Now, I'm thinking 'P' only and No Miss..... :wacko:

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

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Where's the 4th hit on the 2 stationary targets?   Gotta hit those 2 stationaries 4 times, and it's NOT allowed by the instructions to be made up by shotgun.   Shooter ran themselves out of a necessary round when they earned the P for shooting at the #5 KD with that extra rifle shot.  Still looks like P and Miss to me.  

 

Quote

then alternate on the two buffalo's for 4 rounds

 

This is not the common "shoot rack targets till down and REMAINING shots go on the stationary targets".  Four shots have to alternate on the stationary targets!  Only three were made. 

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

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2 hours ago, Turquoise Bill, SASS #39118 said:

The instructions were engage the 6 cowboys with 6 rounds, if the shooter fired 7 rounds at the 6 cowboys, that’s a P, and a miss for not engaging the Buffalos with 4 rounds.

 

TB

Howdy TB..Engage the 6 rack targets yes but nothing said  about 6 rounds..kinda confusing stage writing !!

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One miss, no P.

 

SHB page 22

A MISS is defined as the failure to hit the appropriate target type using the appropriate type of firearm....

 

Once the sixth rifle round is fired the plates become shotgun targets. The 7th shot (which hit a plate) is counted as a miss on the static targets.

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7 hours ago, Kirk James said:

Directions:  from position 1, with the rifle engage the 6 cowboys on the (plate) rack, then alternate on the two buffalo's for 4 rounds (buffalo are stationary targets).  Shooter hits the first four plates, misses the fifth, hits the fifth and sixth then alternates for 3 rounds.  Misses on the plate rack can be made up on a shotgun target which the shooter does.  Everything else is shot correctly.  WTC

Were the buffalos on the plate rack?

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P + 2 misses.

 

P = Made up miss on #5 plate with rifle instead of shotgun.

 

Miss 1 = Shot for plate 6 on plate 5.

 

Miss 2 = Shot for buffalo on plate 6.

 

1 shot per plate is implied by requiring 4 shots on the buffaloes.

 

Edit: Unless he made up the miss on plate 5 with the shotgun, even though he hit it with the rifle — then it’s just 2 misses. 

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6 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

This is what is confusing to me.

OP states that the miss on #5 was made up with shot #6.   These were Plate Rack targets.

OP also states that #6 was hit.   This means that ALL 6 of the plate rack targets had been hit.

 

Then the OP states that the shooter uses the SG to make up misses on the Plate Rack..... but

according to the OP, all the Plate Rack targets had already been hit.

 

KIRK:   why was the SG used to make up plate rack targets when you stated that all 6 of them

had been hit?   Yes, you stated that #5 had been missed with the 5th round, but was then

hit with the 6th round.  

Honestly, this is confusing

Now, I'm thinking 'P' only and No Miss..... :wacko:

 

..........Widder

 

 

I agree!  What is he making up, the stationary target? So does that mean that besides the SG targets they're also going back to engage the statice rifle target?  

 

Maybe a better way to write that stage would have been to engage the the KD targets until down then with any remaining rounds engage the 2 stationary targets in an alternating pattern starting on the (left/right) side.

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P no miss, the shooter hit 9 rifle targets and made up a miss on shotgun target as allowed per stage instructions.

The shooter did shoot rifle targets out of order. Plate rack and stationary buffalo targets are all rifle targets.

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A miss for failure to shoot 4 th round on stationary target. If shooter shot extra at plate rack would that be p or just misses that he was able to make up with shotgun which he did. If you dump 5 pistols rounds on a rifle target it is not a p but 5 misses. 

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I'm assuming that the shotgun make up target was a separate target than the plate rack so that the plate rack was not damaged or taken out of adjustment by the shotgun.

 

The miss on the plate rack, even though there a no plates left standing, is made up on the shotgun target. The rifle was shot out of order.

 

Clean with a P.

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Miss, No P. Stage instructions don't say to only use 6 rounds on the plates (maybe they should have and were intended) shooter engaged plates until down (again stage instructions may have said to ONLY make up plates with SG) and moved to Buffaloes for 3, not 4. Round not fired is a miss.

Yes, as stage writers we have to be careful to actually write our intent. Implied is not always understood and by some even argued as "well you didn't say I couldn't". And yes, where was the make-up? OP said all plates were hit (with 7 shots).

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11 hours ago, Kirk James said:

Directions:  from position 1, with the rifle engage the 6 cowboys on the (plate) rack, then alternate on the two buffalo's for 4 rounds (buffalo are stationary targets).  Shooter hits the first four plates, misses the fifth, hits the fifth and sixth then alternates for 3 rounds.  Misses on the plate rack can be made up on a shotgun target which the shooter does.  Everything else is shot correctly.  WTC

 

No call..

Shooter engaged and hit all rifle targets in correct order..

then shooter alternated his last 3 rifle shots on the buffaloes..

He then used his shotgun to shoot his 4th round on the buffalo..

OP says misses  can be made with shotgun.. Doesn't say "must be"..

"misses on the plate rack can be made up on SHOTGUN TARGET"

he had no misses on the plate rack..

and he made up his 4th. alternating round with his shotgun..

 

Rance ;)

Just my thinkin:wacko: 

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Said "misses on the plate rack can be made up on a shotgun target"; all targets on the plate rack were down, no make-up needed.

4th Buffalo missed (not engaged) and cannot be made up. Miss

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P and a miss.

 

It's a P for putting 7 rifle shots on 6 knockdowns when the instructions only said to put 6 shots on the plates.   Once he put the 7'th shot on a knockdown, he earned the P.   The shooter gets a miss for only putting 3 rifle shots on the 4 buffaloes.  The shotgun makeups were only for, as I understand it, to make up for knockdowns still standing.  If all knockdowns were down, then any SG use just wasted time.

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1 hour ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

Said "misses on the plate rack can be made up on a shotgun target"; all targets on the plate rack were down, no make-up needed.

4th Buffalo missed (not engaged) and cannot be made up. Miss

 

Might be able to go along with this.. One miss.. :wacko:

Doesn't say Buffalo targets can be made up..

I'm Thinkin ;) it's written with confusion built in..:blink:

 

Rance;):huh:

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image.thumb.png.53f423f9f70f51dc4242576d6d7a8895.png

 

image.png

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There's the actual stage instructions.

I can't figure out how to remove one of the double pics.

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11 hours ago, Kirk James said:

Directions:  from position 1, with the rifle engage the 6 cowboys on the (plate) rack, then alternate on the two buffalo's for 4 rounds (buffalo are stationary targets).  Shooter hits the first four plates, misses the fifth, hits the fifth and sixth then alternates for 3 rounds.  Misses on the plate rack can be made up on a shotgun target which the shooter does.  Everything else is shot correctly.  WTC

 

How many rifle targets were hit when the shooter shot this 10 shot string?  9 were hit and the miss was on 5th cowboy plate on the rack.  Stage instructions allow for a miss on the plate rack 1 through 6.  The shooter did comply and shot a make up shot at the shotgun position negating the miss. This action earns the shooter a clean string with the rifle on this string.

 

The shooter did shoot the targets out of order when they shot cowboy plate #5 with the 6th round, that is the shot where the P occurred.  Rifle shots after the 6th are inconsequential as long as they were on rifle targets and the shooter did not try to gain advantage by dumping rounds on one remaining rifle target.

 

OP states "Everything else is shot correctly."   Call should be clean with a P.  Going on the OP description. 

 

After seeing the actual stage instructions the shooter shot #5 cowboy, knocking down all plates on the plate rack. The 7th round on the plate rack 

earned the P at that time and also eliminated their chance to negate the miss they had on the 5th cowboy.  Without any knockdowns left standing the shooter cannot make them up by shooting the bell with their shotgun. 

 

The P did not cause the miss, (a P cannot cause a miss per SASS rules) but the shooter caused a miss by eliminating their option to make it up.  

 

Looking at actual stage instructions the shooter earned a P and screwed up their chance to make up the miss.

 

P and one miss there Gomer!

 

 

 

 

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There was no order on the cowboys on the plate rack said engage the 6 cowboys but it states make up any left Up with designated shotgun Target then it states engage buffalo targets with remaining four round he only shot those 3 times and it did not say you could make them up with shotgun. I see it as a miss for only shooting them 3 time in my mind the question is did he get a p for shooting 7 at the 6 cowboys or is that just a miss which he occurred when he only had 3 to shoot at the buffalo

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For our purposes once the sixth shot is fired at the cowboys they no longer exist as rifle targets, they're no different than the berm. At that point the only remaining rifle targets are the static targets.  So that seventh shot is just a miss.  This is a similar situation to a shooter shooting the pistol targets 10 times with the rifle - 10 misses, no P.

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There are some dang good discussion points posted above.

Some sway my thinking one way..... then I read another post and get swayed back..... :D

 

..........Widder

 

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3 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

For our purposes once the sixth shot is fired at the cowboys they no longer exist as rifle targets, they're no different than the berm. At that point the only remaining rifle targets are the static targets.  So that seventh shot is just a miss.  This is a similar situation to a shooter shooting the pistol targets 10 times with the rifle - 10 misses, no P.

I don't agree, they are all rifle targets, rounds specified on target array cannot eliminate targets within a shooting string.  

 

Example:

If you had split pistols, 5  on each array from 2 positions where the shooter draws the second pistol and cocks it at position 1 and the shooter cannot see the target array #2  from position #1, they could shoot a pistol target in the first array to avoid a miss and stage dq by shooting the target instead of into the berm.  They would still earn a p.

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16 minutes ago, J.S. Sooner, SASS #73526 said:

I don't agree, they are all rifle targets, rounds specified on target array cannot eliminate targets within a shooting string.  

 

Example:

If you had split pistols, 5  on each array from 2 positions where the shooter draws the second pistol and cocks it at position 1 and the shooter cannot see the target array #2  from position #1, they could shoot a pistol target in the first array to avoid a miss and stage dq by shooting the target instead of into the berm.  They would still earn a p.

Yes, but in your example they're both pistol targets.  Shooting the wrong pistol target with a pistol is a P.  Shooting a target with the wrong gun is a miss.

 

In the OP's scenario once you've fired six rounds any remaining standing Cowboys can not be made up with the rifle, ie they're no longer rifle targets at all, makeups are made with the shotgun.

 

SHB page 22

A MISS is defined as the failure to hit the appropriate target type using the appropriate type of firearm....

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Quite a bit of difference in the answers. 

Instructions were: shoot 6 plate targets,  then alternate the 2 stationary targets for 4 rounds. 

Shooter shot 7 rounds at the plate rack, that's a P.  Shooter shot 3 rounds at stationary targets,  that's 1 miss.  Shooter would have had 2 misses if he had not used the shotgun for a makeup (plate rack #5 miss).

P and a miss.

 

BS 

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4 minutes ago, Barry Sloe said:

Quite a bit of difference in the answers. 

Instructions were: shoot 6 plate targets,  then alternate the 2 stationary targets for 4 rounds. 

Shooter shot 7 rounds at the plate rack, that's a P.  Shooter shot 3 rounds at stationary targets,  that's 1 miss.  Shooter would have had 2 misses if he had not used the shotgun for a makeup (plate rack #5 miss).

P and a miss.

 

BS 

 

Not intended to dispute your good points, but thru this entire thread, I've wondered:

Can the 'P' on the plate rack warrant a Miss on the stationary targets because there wasn't

4 rounds remaining in the rifle to fire 4 times?

 

..........Widder

 

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Think of this: plate rack make-ups are stipulated to be made up with the shotgun, shooter made up a plate rack miss with his rifle... P

Shooter then only fired three rounds at buffalos: Miss

 

Shooter failed to hit target with correct firearm (shotgun on plate make-up): miss

Failed to hit stationary targets 4 times: miss

Made up target with SG: NC

 

Hmmmmm

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p and a miss. He made up a miss on the plates with the rifle--P.  Then tried to make up for not engaging the  stationary target with a 4th rifle  round with the shotgun. Not allowed by instructions. I am a relatively new shooter but have not yet shot a stage with makeup for a missed stationary target. 

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