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Hendo

Double Duelist question (or two). Updated Pg. 2

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So, still being new to this, I'm thinking of going Double Duelist. Apparently my weak side (in my case, the right) can't abide by handing the pistol over to the strong side.

I've been doing some dry firing practice, but was wondering on foot movement. Is it a straight, feet shoulder width apart stand and deliver? Are you allowed to move one foot or both between pistols? I'm just asking because I have a tendency to step into my shots in a sort of modified Weaver stance. I don't want to practice bad habits or in this case practice with previous training that goes against the rules.

 

There's a few more questions for sure, but I'm going back through the SHB before I ask them.

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As I imagine you are aware, there is no double duelist category, but the double duelist shooting style is allowed in duelist.  But only one loaded gun can be out of leather at a given time.

 

So, if you want to have what I would call a bladed stance, foot forward matching the hand that is shooting, that's fine, and as you holster the first one adjust your stance as you draw the second one.  But once a pistol is cocked, one foot must be planted.

 

hope that helps.

 

have fun

 

Grizz

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I do ten toes forward and feet planted when I do double duelist and/or gunfighter.  If you need to blade your feet, don't cock the gun until you're in position to shoot.

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"Double Duelist" shooting style is allowed in ALL categories.

 

 

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Prior to becoming a mediocre Gunfighter; I was, for a while, a mediocre Double Duelist.

 

That being said; heed my advice understanding there may only be minimal value contained.

 

Duelist and even more so with Double Duelist; the category is all about transitions.

Flowing pistol to pistol to long gun to long gun, etc. is most easily done smoothly when you ALWAYS have a free hand while shooting pistols (as a DD does).

This free hand means you can anchor on the next gun (if rifle) or on your shot shells (if shotgun).

 

What does any of this have to do with foot placement?

Everything.

 

If I am shooting pistols and long gun from the same position; my body position/ blading/ foot position will be the same for pistols as it will be for long guns. While the off side pistol may at first feel "odd" - I guarantee that dancing in place is not efficient use of your time during the pistol string. 

And as mentioned above; I can use my body positioning by anchoring the off hand to prepare to transition to the next firearm.

 

If I am shooting the pistols AND there will NOT be a long gun fired from same position - I adjust to a more squared position facing the targets.

 

Still with a mindset of direction of movement and gun order - so I can best consider which pistol to shoot first and hand anchoring.

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Depending on where I have come from and where I am going next I tend to blade/splay my feet and twist from the waist. Im not very good at this but I am improving.

 

Imis

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What Creeker said.

 

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What PWB said!! We all forget that. If I'm the only one in Silver Senior Duelist, I'll change to Silver Senior and shoot with the two-handed, I ain't skeered!!:P

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What Anvil Al said about what Creeker said. 

 

I would say Double Duelist allows for more possible transitions that any other style.  You can take best advantage of that by having a neutral foot placement.  Now understand this is a case of do as I say, not as I do. If the stage calls for pistols first I begin with a 100% neutral stance.  But when the stage begins with a long gun or if I've moved to a second shooting position I have my weak foot forward because I take a very aggressive, leaning forward stance. This isn't something I consciously do, it just happens. 

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Thanks y'all. I'm pretty sure I should've clarified myself and said "style" in my original post.

I really appreciate all of the advice as I am just learning. 

To be honest, I hadn't even thought of the staging aspect. I'm already trying to employ my left handed ways into how I run a stage.

I've even started to load my cartridges with a touch more powder (over mouse fart) to help with getting the hammer under my thumb.

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13 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

What Anvil Al said about what Creeker said. 

 

I would say Double Duelist allows for more possible transitions that any other style.  You can take best advantage of that by having a neutral foot placement.  Now understand this is a case of do as I say, not as I do. If the stage calls for pistols first I begin with a 100% neutral stance.  But when the stage begins with a long gun or if I've moved to a second shooting position I have my weak foot forward because I take a very aggressive, leaning forward stance. This isn't something I consciously do, it just happens. 

This is exactly what I found myself doing. I didn't even realize it until I broke down the mechanics of my motions into steps.

Being trained as a rifleman, it took me forever to learn to bring my handgun up to my eye and not tip my head to bring the eye to my sights. (To this day I still catch myself doing it).

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Hendo   It sounds like you are left handed, like me.  Been shooting duelist for 19 years.  I use a cross draw set up, pull the cross draw pistol first, shoot it with my left hand, then reach up with my right hand grab the pistol and holster it while drawing the left hand straight draw....it will take some practice, but it can be smooth and fast.....it always seemed like too much fumbling switching hands from right to left.    Be safe and have some fun.

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I pretty much will never square up my feet. Ever.

Its slower to move to the next position or gun and has no advantage whatsoever 

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Here is a video I found that pretty well shows my stance even just starting with the pistols.

But then I was going to move to the right also. 

 

 

 

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What Shooting Bull said about what Anvil Al said about what Creeker said.

 

I shoot FCGF 99% of the time, but occasionally I want to shoot the Schofield, so I go CC and shoot double duelist. The transition options are amazing and usually trip me up trying to do something I don't normally do. I plan it all out really well, exactly what each hand will be doing while the other hand is shooting. But as they say, no plan survives contact intact. Sure is fun to try though.

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Just shoot Gunfighter. Draw revolvers, face the targets, shoot the alternately, holster them and grab the next weapon. The up and down  one hand an then another stuff with the revolvers strikes me as being unnatural.

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Here's one of me shooting Double Duelist, which is the way I always shoot.   Left pistol is a reproduction converted Walker, right is a reproduction "Milspec" SAA clone, rifle is a 92 and shotgun is a 97.   You can see where I put my feet.

I am a mediocre at best shooter.

 

 

 

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49 minutes ago, Anvil Al #59168 said:

Here is a video I found that pretty well shows my stance even just starting with the pistols.

But then I was going to move to the right also. 

 

 

 

Al is one of our fast DD shooters in area and he makes a nice run on one of the Red River Cowpokes  fine stages. Al, a youngster who often beats me on stages, shows good DD speed here and  great transition to and with first shot from second pistol.  As Creeker and S Bull mentioned about transitioning to long gun, analyzing this video suggest that Al might have been able to transition right hand to rifle as firing left pistol.  As I remember stage start and position, I believe video is a little deceiving though and I do not believe that I did either.  Looking at videos is such a great place for shooter and viewer to learn and I will remember to look at this stage closer next time there...as I bet Al will.  Truth is, Al's a big fellow and made transition to rifle very fluidly, not sure right hand to rifle would have been advantage to him but worth a thought.  World champion DD Hairtrigger Hayes is in background as spotter, I can not recall if he made suggested transition or not.  Nevertheless, good video and good run for Al. 

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Thanks Billy. I always learned and tried to watch you shoot as you have some of the smoothest

DD transition there are in the game. I love to watch Double Duelist videos. I will pick them apart.

As I have this one. Pretty sure on this one I had to take a step from doorway to window. But trans could have been better.

And I fumbled that first SG load some also. But then I am kind of like a bull in a china closet.

 

Years ago I thought about making a Double Duelist video and get some of the best DD shooters

in the area in it (who just happen to be some if the best in the world). 

Like Nuttin Graceful, T-Bone, Billy Boots.

Pick there brain and go through some of there transitions in the video. Having those 3 shooting in the same club

was a dream for someone wanting to shoot DD.

 

Maybe it's time to talk with Hairtrigger and make one this summer. Get him and Billy Boots and some others

in it teaching some of there thoughts on shooting DD.

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Here is another somewhat showing keeping you off hand doing something and anchored

on the next gun. 

 

 

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The idea of first pistol hand going to long gun after firing can work for great transition to rifle, but truth is, at least around here, there are not that many stages that place shooter to that advantage in reach.  Perfect, of course, for those few "stand-and-deliver" stages encountered.  Like Al  in the video, I am also much of the more straight-up posture shooter but I suggest if a shooter is shorter in stature and/or can shoot accurately in a more grouched position he/she can gain in transition to long guns when stage allows.  In our area, T-Bone and Cowhand prove this body positioning to be a great advantage.   I continue to practice the hand to long gun technique but again find few stages in an actual match that give that option.  I also often question if shooting in a perhaps adjusted stance for second pistol gains me time in the total time.  Long gun table height a big significance too.

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Does the first pistol have to be in the holster before the second clears leather?

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2 minutes ago, Hendo said:

Does the first pistol have to be in the holster before the second clears leather?

No. First pistol just has to be empty before drawing second pistol.

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No once the last round is shot in that pistol you can pull the other and shoot it. Holster them separate or at the same time. Just be mindful of the first guns muzzle

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Hendo if you really want to let it rip, watch this young man shoot. Pecos Nick and Hairtrigger Hayes are who I have modeled my style after, because you cannot argue with World & National Championship Buckles. If you have an opportunity to also check out Yellowstone Vic, another great duelist. 

 

 

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20 minutes ago, Clay Thornton said:

Hendo if you really want to let it rip, watch this young man shoot. Pecos Nick and Hairtrigger Hayes are who I have modeled my style after, because you cannot argue with World & National Championship Buckles. If you have an opportunity to also check out Yellowstone Vic, another great duelist. 

 

 

Yes sir.  I'd say Nick the best duelist to come into this sport...superb in transitions and outstanding speed.  One does need to add El Muerto Negro on the list of "Upper Crust" duelist with those you mention.

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2 hours ago, Anvil Al #59168 said:

Here is another somewhat showing keeping you off hand doing something and anchored

on the next gun. 

 

 

One of the few straight SAD stages in our area and you shoot it well.  We would both benefit from a little taller table. :D Always interesting to see folks turn it on at this stage and learn what the slightest bobble can do.

I use this type stage in my practice as to learn which gun to shoot first for best speed,  pistol of rifle.  Start position of hands seems to be key factor per my practice.  I used to believe pistols first but clock sometimes tell me that if start is fingers touching table then best to go to rifle, then right pistol (left hand on left pistol), left pistol (right hand to shotgun) then left hand snatches shotgun shells coming up from holstering of left pistol as shotgun hits shoulder. 

If hands at side then right pistol first, then right to rifle lever as left is firing, rifle then as rifle goes to table with left hand shotgun is coming up and in the motion of left hand coming off shotgun it grabs shotgun shells.

If start is low surrender or touching hat...well, according how I feel at moment, but probably rifle first. 

In all mentioned transitions on this and most stages, no doubt hitting leather smoothly is so important to faster time, as is smoothness of shotgun load. 

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Here's another one of me.   As you can see, I take my time and am rather methodical in my shooting.   That's  polite way of saying I'm slow as molasses and will never win a prize.   But, I have fun!  And that's the most important thing.   This time around I was shooting smokeless in a 1st and 3rd gen Colt, and a real 73 along with the 97.  Yes, I like long barrels on my shotguns.  :)   Can't see my footwork on this one.

 

 

 

When all is said and done, I and just having too much fun shooting these old timey guns.   And, even though I am S L O W I have sped up a little over time.  Oddly, neither of the two videos I posted on this thread show me with my Lighting, which I am much, well, a little, faster with.   For me, the thing that takes the most time is getting the gun lined up for that first shot.  That's something I need to work on, as follow up shots come much more quickly for me than the first one.

 

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You are right about Pecos Nick. That young man is FAST. Have never got to shoot with him.

But have talked with him a few times at EOT about stages we was shooting.

 

Lucky I get to shoot with Hairtrigger Hayes all the time. I use to teach him stuff. Now he is teaching me.

And feel pretty good if I can stay within a couple of second a stage. If I am within 1 second a stage I know

I am killing it. But that don't happen that often. Think we both learned a lot from Nuttin Graceful and Billy Boots.

Nuttin Graceful was pretty much the top Duelist in the game for many years.

Have never gotten to shoot with El Muerto Negro. But have looked at his times. Hairtrigger and him run REAL close

to each other. And I do mean REAL close. Hope to get to meet him this year at EOT.

 

All 3 of those mentioned (Pecos Nick, Hairtrigger Hayes, and El Muerto Negro) are the upper crust for sure.

I am not on that level. But at least now I have moved to Sr Duelist.  

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Man, what a great bunch of responses. I have so much more to think about than I knew. I definitely have a better grasp on how I'm going to practice and shoot.

Thank you all for sharing the videos, too. Heck, I've been watching Grizz's videos for a while, in fact they were some of the first ones I watched when I got involved in this game.

 

The only problem with watching all those videos is that I have to limit my time, otherwise hours pass and the next thing I know, I'm watching deep sea revelations of the Bermuda Triangle. :lol:

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Hendo, I normally shoot pistols in the same stance I shoot my long guns in, as others have said shuffling your feet and changing stance is wasting time. I look my pistols into the holsters which is slower than those who holster without looking (unless they miss). As Creeker said it's all about transitions. God gave you 2 hands, keep them both busy. I'll add a couple of videos so you can see what I do.

 

Duelist is Coolest!

Randy

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15 minutes ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

Hendo, I normally shoot pistols in the same stance I shoot my long guns in, as others have said shuffling your feet and changing stance is wasting time. I look my pistols into the holsters which is slower than those who holster without looking (unless they miss). As Creeker said it's all about transitions. God gave you 2 hands, keep them both busy. I'll add a couple of videos so you can see what I do.

 

Duelist is Coolest!

Randy

IMG_0683.MOV

Looking good as usual Randy.

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I am loving all of these videos. Some great skills using both hands and in transitions. Thanks for posting these, fellas. Questions though: what are all those things coming out of the rifles? They almost look like empty cases, but are way too small. Haha sorry I couldn't resist. If I can't be as fast as y'all, at least I can poke fun at ya.

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