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New cocked rifle rule - clarification?


Roger Rapid

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Happy to have new ruling on arriving at stage with cocked/half-cocked rifle, and that TO will have shooter cock rifle, fire it down range and nothing happens = no call, and that "bang" = SDQ.

 

However, is this if cocked-hammer condition is discovered after shooter stages rifle? The rules call for an SDQ if cocked rifle left shooter's hands. Does the new rule override the "cocked rifle left shooter's hands" rule such that the shooter doesn't have the opportunity to prove it clear? Or, must the cocked/half-cocked rifle bar discovered before rifle is staged (i.e., leaves shooter's hands)?

 

RR

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4 minutes ago, Roger Rapid said:

Happy to have new ruling on arriving at stage with cocked/half-cocked rifle, and that TO will have shooter cock rifle, fire it down range and nothing happens = no call, and that "bang" = SDQ.

 

However, is this if cocked-hammer condition is discovered after shooter stages rifle? The rules call for an SDQ if cocked rifle left shooter's hands. Does the new rule override the "cocked rifle left shooter's hands" rule such that the shooter doesn't have the opportunity to prove it clear? Or, must the cocked/half-cocked rifle bar discovered before rifle is staged (i.e., leaves shooter's hands)?

 

RR

It is pinned at the top of this page from PaleWolf

 

 

 

Thanks

Randy

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I AM SORRY, BUT NOW I AM CONFUSED.   IF THE SHOOTER STAGES HIS RIFLE COCKED, WITH NO LIVE/UNFIRED ROUND IN THE CHAMBER IS THAT STILL A SDQ?  MY CONFUSION COMES FROM THE RULING REGARDING STAGING THE RIFLE COCKED WITH A LIVE/UNFIRED ROUND IN THE CHAMBER.

I THOUGHT THIS WAS SIMPLE, BUT IT MIGHT NOT BE.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Arkansas Harper SASS #33169 said:

I AM SORRY, BUT NOW I AM CONFUSED.   IF THE SHOOTER STAGES HIS RIFLE COCKED, WITH NO LIVE/UNFIRED ROUND IN THE CHAMBER IS THAT STILL A SDQ?

 

Yes

 

1 hour ago, Arkansas Harper SASS #33169 said:

MY CONFUSION COMES FROM THE RULING REGARDING STAGING THE RIFLE COCKED WITH A LIVE/UNFIRED ROUND IN THE CHAMBER.

 

The rule covers moving from the LT to the stage with a cocked rifle, not staging it.

 

SHB pg 23

Quote

Changing location with a long gun with the action closed and the hammer cocked
(exception for rifle from the loading table to the stage with no round chambered).

 

If the shooter stages it, cocked, with a live round in the chamber, it is a MDQ. You get there by awarding a SDQ for changing location with a cocked rifle, round in the chamber, with the action closed and another for staging it in that condition.

 

1 hour ago, Arkansas Harper SASS #33169 said:

I THOUGHT THIS WAS SIMPLE, BUT IT MIGHT NOT BE.

 

There are a lot of nuances that folks have to pay attention to.

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36 minutes ago, Arkansas Harper SASS #33169 said:

I AM SORRY, BUT NOW I AM CONFUSED.   IF THE SHOOTER STAGES HIS RIFLE COCKED, WITH NO LIVE/UNFIRED ROUND IN THE CHAMBER IS THAT STILL A SDQ?  MY CONFUSION COMES FROM THE RULING REGARDING STAGING THE RIFLE COCKED WITH A LIVE/UNFIRED ROUND IN THE CHAMBER.

I THOUGHT THIS WAS SIMPLE, BUT IT MIGHT NOT BE.

 

 

Rule specifically states cocked rifle with live/unfired round in chamber, as soon as rifle leaves the shooters hand SDQ and an SDQ for leaving the LT with a live round in the chamber first SDQ. 2 x SDQ = ride of shame home.  I don't know, I think people are over thinking this. It's real easy from my point of view. 
Pistols and rifle need to be hammer down on empty chamber/fired case, Personally I prefer the empty chamber. that way you can look, see and be sure no round is in the chamber,
Coach gun need to be open to show clear. Pumps I'm not sure of but assume same as rifle "action closed, hammer down on empty chamber"

Anything outside of that condition and the rule book comes out to see if you get a hand slap or told to go home. 

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2 minutes ago, Son of the Midnight Star said:

Pumps I'm not sure of but assume same as rifle "action closed, hammer down on empty chamber"

 

No difference. All shotguns are staged the same

 

SHB pg 16

 

Quote

Shotguns are always staged open and empty and are loaded on the clock unless
the stage begins with the shotgun in the shooter’s hands.

 

Movement is also the same

Quote

A shotgun is considered SAFE for movement (in hand, while moving through a stage in the
following condition only:
- Action open, round in chamber or on carrier.
- Hammer(s) fully down on an empty chamber(s) or expended round(s), action
closed.

 

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7 minutes ago, Son of the Midnight Star said:

Rule specifically states cocked rifle with live/unfired round in chamber, as soon as rifle leaves the shooters hand SDQ and an SDQ for leaving the LT with a live round in the chamber first SDQ. 2 x SDQ = ride of shame home.  I don't know, I think people are over thinking this. It's real easy from my point of view. 
Pistols and rifle need to be hammer down on empty chamber/fired case, Personally I prefer the empty chamber. that way you can look, see and be sure no round is in the chamber,
Coach gun need to be open to show clear. Pumps I'm not sure of but assume same as rifle "action closed, hammer down on empty chamber"

Anything outside of that condition and the rule book comes out to see if you get a hand slap or told to go home. 

SHB page 16

Shotguns are always staged open and empty and are loaded on the clock unless the stage begins with the shotgun in the shooter’s hands.

 

SHB page 16

A shotgun is considered SAFE to leave the shooter’s hands in the following condition only: - Empty

 

During the course of fire it doesn't matter whether it's open or closed as long as it's empty when it leaves the shooter's hands.

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22 minutes ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

Where in the rule book does it say that a cocked rifle with an empty chamber leaving the shooters hands is an SDQ? 

 

That is a violation of:

Quote

 

Safety & Handling Conventions – Rifles 

- Rifles may be staged with the magazine loaded, action closed, hammer fully down on the empty chamber (NOT the safety notch), with the muzzle pointing in a safe direction (adheres to the 170° rule).

 

SHB p.15

 

The SDQ penalty for doing so is referenced in the ROC clarifications "posted & pinned" on all Wire forums following the rule change regarding the exception for moving with a cocked rifle from the LT to the stage without a round in the chamber. 

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31 minutes ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

Where in the rule book does it say that a cocked rifle with an empty chamber leaving the shooters hands is an SDQ? 

I had to re-read my comment to make sure it was not my foot in my mouth. Cocked rifle on empty chamber is not an SDQ.

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3 minutes ago, Son of the Midnight Star said:

I had to re-read my comment to make sure it was not my foot in my mouth. Cocked rifle on empty chamber is not an SDQ.

 

Staging a rifle in that condition IS.

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4 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

Staging a rifle in that condition IS.

Yet it’s not listed under SDQ in the penalties overview, or the pocket card, and the penalty itself is not mentioned with the rule you sited above. And the book has very recently been updated. 

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PWB - thanks for clarification. And, by "staging" it implies the moment it leaves shooter's hands - yes?

 

So, for us TOs to help the shooters, this means examining rifles on their way to the stage, not when they are "staged" (left shooter's hands).

 

.RR

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7 minutes ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

Yet it’s not listed under SDQ in the penalties overview, or the pocket card, and the penalty itself is not mentioned with the rule you sited above. And the book has very recently been updated. 

 

The posted clarifications (based on a number of related "WtC?" questions) were determined after the publication of the SHB.

It was discovered that the rule/penalty regarding staging was not being applied consistently depending on when the cocked rifle was noticed.

 

 

3 minutes ago, Roger Rapid said:

PWB - thanks for clarification. And, by "staging" it implies the moment it leaves shooter's hands - yes?

YES...that is clearly stated in the posted clarification.

 

So, for us TOs to help the shooters, this means examining rifles on their way to the stage, not when they are "staged" (left shooter's hands).

 

.RR

 

SHOOTERS are ultimately responsible for the condition of their firearms at all times.

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40 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Wire forums following the rule change regarding the exception for moving with a cocked rifle from the LT to the stage without a round in the chamber. 

 

Good clarification, so if I understand this correctly: 

 

The rule change applies only to the penalty for moving from the LT to the moment the rifle leaves the shooters hand; at that point the rules are as they were- SDQ for staging a rifle with a cocked hammer (regardless of empty or loaded chamber).  Yes?

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Well. I think I worked through this.

We must assume these rules and rule clarifications are for safety -- and rightly so. :)

 

Therefore, a rifle on safety cock notch and empty chamber is safe when a shooter's hand is touching it, gripping it, holding it, squeezing it :)

                    but, the same rifle laying on a table by it's ownself is not safe :wacko: 

 

Now, that is clarified! (even though somewhat bewildering :lol: )

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13 minutes ago, Bushy Blonco said:

 

Good clarification, so if I understand this correctly: 

 

The rule change applies only to the penalty for moving from the LT to the moment the rifle leaves the shooters hand; at that point the rules are as they were- SDQ for staging a rifle with a cocked hammer (regardless of empty or loaded chamber).  Yes?

 

You are correct, except there is an additional SDQ penalty if there is a loaded round in the chamber.  You get the first one for moving from the LT to the stage (once it leaves the shooter's hands) and another for a cocked rifle leaving the shooter's hand with a round in the chamber.

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28 minutes ago, Palo Verde, SASS # 56522 said:

 

 

Well. I think I worked through this.

We must assume these rules and rule clarifications are for safety -- and rightly so. :)

 

Therefore, a rifle on safety cock notch and empty chamber is safe when a shooter's hand is touching it, gripping it, holding it, squeezing it :)

                    but, the same rifle laying on a table by it's ownself is not safe :wacko: 

 

Now, that is clarified! (even though somewhat bewildering :lol: )

 

Quote

As long as the shooter has contact with the firearm, it is considered in their control. 

SHB p.17

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17 hours ago, Palo Verde, SASS # 56522 said:

Well. I think I worked through this.

We must assume these rules and rule clarifications are for safety -- and rightly so. 

 

Therefore, a rifle on safety cock notch and empty chamber is safe when a shooter's hand is touching it, gripping it, holding it, squeezing it 

                    but, the same rifle laying on a table by it's ownself is not safe  

 

Now, that is clarified! (even though somewhat bewildering)

 

Just a followup regarding some of the comments regarding the SDQ for initially staging a cocked RIFLE.

 

Question:

What is the penalty for a cocked REVOLVER leaving the shooter's hand(s)...

into a holster...onto a prop..."safety notch"/half-cock/full-cock...loaded or empty...round under the hammer or not.??

Answer:  

A cocked revolver may never leave a shooters hand, including from one hand to the other.  This does not apply when loading or reloading on the firing line.

...

Safe Conditions During a Course of Fire – Revolvers

Revolvers are considered SAFE for movement (in hand, while holstering, or while moving through a stage) and SAFE to leave the shooter’s hand in the following conditions ONLY:

- Hammer fully down on an empty chamber.

- Hammer fully down on an expended round.  A revolver may not be originally staged in this condition, but may be restaged in this condition. 

.... SHB p.15

- A cocked revolver leaving the shooters hand. 

... SHB p.23 - STAGE DISQUALIFICATION PENALY (SDQ)

... SHB p.43 - Pocket RO Card (SDQ)

 

 

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