Powder Storage

[Ramblin Gambler]

In another thread a few people mentioned using old refrigerators to store powder to help fight humidity.  I was wondering if those old fridges make suitable powder magazines.  Now, I understand there's no need to keep smokeless powder in a magazine because it's not explosive, but eventually I'll load black powder and will want to keep it all in the same place.  Will storing black powder in a fridge turn it into a potential bomb, or is the seal on the door weak enough that it's not an issue?  Maybe the hole you have to drill for the power cord for the dehumidifier is enough to make it safe? 

 

Which brings me another question.  Is there anything wrong with having an electric dehumidifier in a powder magazine with black powder?  My gut tells me it's not a good idea, but I don't have any actual experience with gun powder beyond shooting. 

[John Boy]

No dehumidifier is needed for the storage anywhere as long as the cans are sealed tightly by keeping the caps tight. Old refrigerator is a good idea (not turned on) for fire protection of the powder

[Frontier Lone Rider]

One can use a  full size refrigerator or a smaller apartment refrigerator for storage.  You can put a low watt light bulb inside to keep it dry.

 

We use to store welding rods in one with the light bulb to keep them dry for use.

 

You can purchase a small apartment refrigerator in college towns for $10 - $15 used.

[Cat Brules]

The refrigerator or freezer for powder storage is not only for humidity control, but also offers some containment for the powder in case of fire.  The alternative, I suppose, would be some kind of steel storage locker. Of course, you will have to decide whether you want to do any of those things.

 

Cat Brules

[J-BAR #18287]

ATF does not have specific storage requirements for black powder quantities less than 50 lbs, as long as you are not using it in a business. However, there may be local or state laws that may apply to your location.

 

https://www.atf.gov/explosives/qa/black-powder-subject-regulation-under-federal-explosives-laws

 

 

[Matthew McCrae]

I'm not a fan of the old refrigerator thing but that's just me. For Smokeless, Any old metal locker or storage cabinet will do as long as it can vent. Humidity is no an issue as long as you keep the containers caped tightly. 

For black and more that a few pounds. I highly recommend a wood box that has vents (read that as pressure relief) While I'm not afraid of black powder I treat it with a healthy amount of respect, and right now only keep about five or less pounds on hand. when I get to the point that I'm ordering 20 pounds or more. I will build a vented wood box and place it someplace that would cause less issue if it went off due to fire. 

[Mud Marine,SASS#54686 Life]

I use a vented wood box that my buddy built for me. I dimly recall that was recommended by some authority! 

[Sedalia Dave]

DO NOT store BP in an old refridgerator. It will become a bomb during a fire.  Store it in a wood or metal container with a lid that just sits on top of the container, think BP powder measure hopper. That way if there is a fire and the BP is ignited the majority of the blast will be directed upwards and not outwards.

 

If you cut a 2 inch vent hole in an old refridgerator it makes a great smokeless powder magazine. To keep bugs, mice, and the like out plug it with a piece of scotchbrite

 

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

If you research safe containers for black powder the Fire Marshals recommend a wood box made out of 1"X1" thick wood. The lid/top should be made like a box so it slides over the sides. The wood provides some sort of fire protection. And if the stuff decides to ignite the lid blows off preventing it from being a bomb. There are drawings on the innerweb.

 

The seals on a refrigerator door provide zero fire protection. So a storage locker yes, fire resistance, no.

And as its been said, a tightly sealed container is your best protection against moisture.

Ike

[Matthew McCrae]

3 hours ago, Mud Marine,SASS#54686 Life said:

I use a vented wood box that my buddy built for me. I dimly recall that was recommended by some authority! 

If you had nothing better to do with your time the ATF had construction criteria for the powder magazines as they call them.  wood thicknesses and maximum pounds stored. I don't have a link but it's on the web somewhere if you ever got bored. 

[flat iron mike]

In the old days we used old broken refrigerators to store our welding rods in. Only the low watt light bulb on to keep the humidity super low. This was acceptable for storing the low hydrogen weld rods and kept them very warm.  The latch was broken and the door closed with a large rubber-band. 

[Go West]

I keep my powder on a shelf in the garage. Some may be 20 years or more old and is still fine. Of course I still keep the lids tightly on.

[Ramblin Gambler]

Thanks to all for the answers.  I was originally planning to buy a metal powder magazine, I didn't realize wood was preferred.  I guess I'll just build a wooden one instead.  I aint too good a woodworker, but how hard can a box be?  Especially if it aint gotta be tight. 

[Dusty Devil Dale]

On 1/27/2020 at 6:50 AM, Mud Marine,SASS#54686 Life said:

I use a vented wood box that my buddy built for me. I dimly recall that was recommended by some authority! 

FYI, a minimum 1" thick vented hardwood box is required in California for black powder storage.  Not more than 1 pound may be possessed at any time.  

[Dusty Devil Dale]

1 hour ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

Thanks to all for the answers.  I was originally planning to buy a metal powder magazine, I didn't realize wood was preferred.  I guess I'll just build a wooden one instead.  I aint too good a woodworker, but how hard can a box be?  Especially if it aint gotta be tight. 

I bet you have CAS friends who are woodworkers who would be pleased to give you an assist.  You might ask around.  CAS people have a tendency to be quite generous and helpful spirited.  

[Ramblin Gambler]

5 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

I bet you have CAS friends who are woodworkers who would be pleased to give you an assist.  You might ask around.  CAS people have a tendency to be quite generous and helpful spirited.  

 

I bet most of them are.  Someday we should do a poll and find out if SASS has more woodworkers or more gunsmiths. 

[Sedalia Dave]

24 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

FYI, a minimum 1" thick vented hardwood box is required in California for black powder storage.  Not more than 1 pound may be possessed at any time.  

Mud Marine lives in Idaho where they still believe in the Constitution and freedom from an oppressive government 

[watab kid]

again , calif has to control your life , glad im elsewhere 

[Dusty Devil Dale]

12 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

Mud Marine lives in Idaho where they still believe in the Constitution and freedom from an oppressive government 

Hold the line on that as long as you can.  

[Three Foot Johnson]

13 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

FYI, a minimum 1" thick vented hardwood box is required in California for black powder storage.  Not more than 1 pound may be possessed at any time.  

 That's only 70 rounds of 10 gauge. Good Lord, what do you do if you're loading for a big 2+ day match? Just keep going back to the store every couple hours? Or does the loaded ammo count toward that 1 pound possession limit?

 

I keep *a few pounds* in an old "ham can" trailer out away from the house.

[Dusty Devil Dale]

7 hours ago, Three Foot Johnson said:

 That's only 70 rounds of 10 gauge. Good Lord, what do you do if you're loading for a big 2+ day match? Just keep going back to the store every couple hours? Or does the loaded ammo count toward that 1 pound possession limit?

 

I keep *a few pounds* in an old "ham can" trailer out away from the house.

You can't just go to the store, because the stores don't stock BP, due to the strict storage requirements.  And you can't order off the web, because few web vendors sell/ship small (1 lb) lots separately.  And you're up a creek if you need two or three different grades of BP. 

The only way a CA person can continue in shooting sports requiring BP is to use substitutes or break the law. 

 

We did try to have one local vendor bring in a large order, and we had to get everyone over there the day it arrived to buy it up and prevent him having to store any.  It didn't work out very well.  He couldn't sell anyone more than a pound, so some ended up a storage/insurance violation for the vendor.  

CA is absolutely not a gun - friendly state. 

[Matthew McCrae]

48 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

You can't just go to the store, because the stores don't stock BP, due to the strict storage requirements.  And you can't order off the web, because few web vendors sell/ship small (1 lb) lots separately.  And you're up a creek if you need two or three different grades of BP. 

The only way a CA person can continue in shooting sports requiring BP is to use substitutes or break the law. 

 

We did try to have one local vendor bring in a large order, and we had to get everyone over there the day it arrived to buy it up and prevent him having to store any.  It didn't work out very well.  He couldn't sell anyone more than a pound, so some ended up a storage/insurance violation for the vendor.  

CA is absolutely not a gun - friendly state. 

Powder valley has no issue shipping. It's not law you're breaking,  it's fire code and that's regulation. The trouble you'll get into is if something should happen you will be financially liable for any damages since an insurance company is not going to cover the incident. 
I order between 2 and five pounds of black at a time. I have over five times the fire code limit for smokeless, but I also have everything in a flammables locker too. In my competition shooting I run through about 30 pound of smokeless a year. 

Keep in mind that there may be a regulation on how much powder you have on hand, but there is no law on how much loaded ammo. so just buy it and load it. 

[Matthew McCrae]

10 hours ago, watab kid said:

again , calif has to control your life , glad im elsewhere 

Yep. Pretty much. 

[Springfield Slim SASS #24733]

The Ca. law is totally out of line with reality. If you are a flintlock shooter you will need 2 kids of powder anyway, so half a lb of fffg and another  half of fffg for priming? Ridiculous. As for a fridge not being necessary, maybe powder can be sealed, but what about primers? As for being a bomb, maybe, but how many here store theirs in a gun safe? Gotta be way safer than that, at least the door bill blow open on a fridge. And a wooden box for fire safety? Come on, it's a wooden box and will burn up in a flash. They prefer wood for not sparking, not for fire protection.

[Dusty Devil Dale]

1 hour ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said:

The Ca. law is totally out of line with reality. If

The current CA Legislature's and Governor's reality isn't the same as ours.  We want to shoot.  They want us to not be able to own guns.  It's about control, not about anybody's safety.  A disarmed "Citizen" immediately becomes a "Subject".  Sadly, that is the Left's agenda. 

[Matthew McCrae]

3 hours ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said:

The Ca. law is totally out of line with reality. If you are a flintlock shooter you will need 2 kids of powder anyway, so half a lb of fffg and another  half of fffg for priming? Ridiculous. As for a fridge not being necessary, maybe powder can be sealed, but what about primers? As for being a bomb, maybe, but how many here store theirs in a gun safe? Gotta be way safer than that, at least the door bill blow open on a fridge. And a wooden box for fire safety? Come on, it's a wooden box and will burn up in a flash. They prefer wood for not sparking, not for fire protection.

The wood box is for fire protection, 1" thick lumber takes a lot to get burning. and that's not finished lumber that's 1 actual inch thick. And the bigger powder lockers are required to be made from 2" lumber not 2x4 or 2x8 but a real 2" thick chunk. there's a whole list of secification these thing need to meet to be considered good to go. 
problem is I just chose to ignore the BS buy what i need and be smart about how it's stored and used. Primers sit on the loading bench in the garage. in the original packaging i only keep a few thousand of each on hand at the most. 

[Matthew McCrae]

2 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

The current CA Legislature's and Governor's reality isn't the same as ours.  We want to shoot.  They want us to not be able to own guns.  It's about control, not about anybody's safety.  A disarmed "Citizen" immediately becomes a "Subject".  Sadly, that is the Left's agenda. 

I could not agree more

[Mud Marine,SASS#54686 Life]

As a black powder reloader, I figure that I have a fairly good chance to get to Mars without having to pay a million bucks or so. 

[Dusty Devil Dale]

32 minutes ago, Mud Marine,SASS#54686 Life said:

As a black powder reloader, I figure that I have a fairly good chance to get to Mars without having to pay a million bucks or so. 

Gee, I wonder if primers could detonate or powder burn on Mars w/ almost no oxygen.  Maybe there's enough O2 semi-sealed inside the brass case, or chemically in the components themselves.  Better have a good crimp up there. 

(I hear "Mars ain't the kind of place to raise a kid -  in fact it's cold as Hell, and there's no one there to raise them, if you did.  And all this science I don't understand..... ) 

[Cat Brules]

“Government sources” suggest using a wooden box to store powder.

 

My feeling is that the wooden box suggestion is nonsense. You might as well store the powder on the shelf. I suggest an old fridge or freezer (not plugged in) of some limited size, instead.  It will provide some environmental control and fire control.  If the fire is too intense (obviously), the powder will react, and the door of the fridge may blow open.  Again obviously, at that point, fire control will have already become a moot point under any circumstance.  Besides, you can store other sensitive items in the fridge as well.  The old refrigerator idea is not absolutely necessary, but it’s something to think about.

 

Cat Brules

 

 

[Loophole LaRue, SASS #51438]

1 hour ago, Cat Brules said:

“Government sources” suggest using a wooden box to store powder.

 

My feeling is that the wooden box suggestion is nonsense. You might as well store the powder on the shelf. I suggest an old fridge or freezer (not plugged in) of some limited size, instead.  It will provide some environmental control and fire control.  If the fire is too intense (obviously), the powder will react, and the door of the fridge may blow open.  Again obviously, at that point, fire control will have already become a moot point under any circumstance.  Besides, you can store other sensitive items in the fridge as well.  The old refrigerator idea is not absolutely necessary, but it’s something to think about.

 

Cat Brules

 

 

 

It's been awhile since I read the MA Regs, but I seem to recall that they (and probably the similar regs in most other states) are based largely on the NFPA Codes; their focus in this instance is not on fire prevention, but on minimizing risk to responding firefighters.  If the structure is already involved, FF's are potentially exposed to the ignition of explosive materials, stored in unfamiliar locations.  It's bad enough to be in the basement when a couple thousand rounds start to cook off, but potentially much worse if 20 pounds of black powder, stored in a metal cabinet or safe, ignites.  Wooden magazines, on the other hand, do not greatly restrict the expansion of the burning gases, reducing the explosive force.  Please forgive me if I am off the mark, but it's my best memory of the NFPA's discussion of the motivation behind the regs.  

 

Incidentally, that's also the primary motivation behind limitations on amounts stored, licensing, and inspections; the FD is not anti-gun; they just don't like surprises when they enter your burning house.

 

I like TFJ's idea of using a trailer parked away from the house.

 

LL