EMF Dakota SAA questions

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

I was at a gun show today, and I saw a very nice condition used EMF Dakota SAA clone for sale in a used display.   Got for about 700 bucks including sales tax.  [Hey, I live in Massachusetts.  Suppy and demand...]  Clearly made in Italy, as it says so on the barrel, not sure if it's Pietta or Uberti, ,but I suspect the former based on some of the proof marks.   Barrel was stamped with caliber being .44 S&W.  That struck me as odd, so I asked the seller, and he "looked it up" and said that it's the same as .44 Special.   He thought for a moment that maybe it was in the Schofield caliber, but then he remembered that would be a .45.  I commented something about it being .44 American, but immediately dismissed that as a possibility.   Anyway, when I got the pistol home, I noticed some thing about it, it is noticeably heavier that an identical sized Uberti in .44 Special, and the frame is visibly beefier as well.   I found myself wondering if it could be chambered for .44 Magnum.   Long story short, it's not.  Specials chamber just fine, Magnums won't go all the way in, but the cylinder is clearly long enough to accept them.  This got me to wondering.   Now, I would under no circumstances lengthen the chambers on the existing cylinder.   But did EMF make this gun available in the Magnum caliber?  If they did, I just might try to get a cylinder.  Does anyone know?

Oh, and it's got the weirdest "safety" I've ever seen on an SAA type gun.   You rotate the cylinder pin to that it blocks the hammer from going all the way down.

[Goody, SASS #26190]

Those were made by Armi Jager. They are no longer in business AFAIK. Some parts will fit from current models, others will have to be made or altered.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

12 minutes ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said:

Those were made by Armi Jager. They are no longer in business AFAIK. Some parts will fit from current models, others will have to be made or altered.

 

Well, it's a start.   The gun looks practically brand new.   I wonder if it's ever been fired.

[Three Foot Johnson]

$700 + tax? Ay yi yi...

 

I've got four of 'em in .38-40, and one thing I've found is the cylinder tends to over-rotate when you're shooting fast. The easy fix was some thick grease on the base pin to provide some resistance. 

 

[Bailey Creek,5759]

When I started in this sport the EMF Hartford was the pistol to have .I have 3 of them in 44wcf  Great pistols.

The Dakota was a Cheaper version of the Hartford . Still a great pistol.

VTI has a limited supply of parts for them.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

4 hours ago, Three Foot Johnson said:

$700 + tax? Ay yi yi...

 

 

735, including tax..

 

You must remember, I live in Massachusetts.   For a non approved gun to be sold here, you have to be able to prove that it was registered in the state prior to a certain date.  I think 1998.   Nor can you purchase one made before the date and transfer it in.   You can not buy a new Colt or clone in this state; they are deemed to be an unsafe design.  You are limited to the already here used market.  Supply and demand is a real bitch it seems.  

 

Mine looks just like yours.

 

I did check, and the cylinder pin from an Uberti fits like a glove.   I'll be replacing that ugly safety thing.

[Three Foot Johnson]

If you want to get rid of that Jager base pin, instead of tossing it in a drawer, send it my way. 

[Griff]

As I seem to recall, "Dakota" was a model marketed by EMF and were imported from more than one firm.  I have an early one made as Goody noted by Jager, they were also imported from Armi San Marco.  Just as Hartford models were manufactured by both Armi San Marco and Uberti (I have one from each maker).  EMF set the specs, and the maker made them to that.

[John Barleycorn, SASS #76982]

$700 for a Dakota is ridicules. It’s the bottom of the line like a Hombre. $300 

 

buy Vaquero’s most models are MASS approved

[Three Foot Johnson]

59 minutes ago, Griff said:

As I seem to recall, "Dakota" was a model marketed by EMF and were imported from more than one firm.  I have an early one made as Goody noted by Jager, they were also imported from Armi San Marco.  Just as Hartford models were manufactured by both Armi San Marco and Uberti (I have one from each maker).  EMF set the specs, and the maker made them to that.

EMF, Mitchell Arms, and Inter-State Arms. They were also made by Hammerli in Switzerland... or imported by Hammerli... ? Maybe some others too.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

6 hours ago, Three Foot Johnson said:

If you want to get rid of that Jager base pin, instead of tossing it in a drawer, send it my way. 

 

I'll keep that in mind,  but I think I'll hold on to it for "completeness."   I also checked and found that a 3rd Gen Colt pin will fit.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

5 hours ago, John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 said:

$700 for a Dakota is ridicules. It’s the bottom of the line like a Hombre. $300 

 

buy Vaquero’s most models are MASS approved

 

Yeah, but, while I know they are very nicely made guns,  I don't like the Ruger.

 

Used gun prices in Massachusetts tend to be much higher than for in neighboring states, especially "unapproved" handguns.   I've seen things for sale in New Hampshire for half the price I've seen the exact same thing here in Massachusetts.   0

 

I used Colt?  Forget it.   If you can find one for less than a thousand, it's gonna be a beater.   In nice shape, expect a minimum price of 2000.  And that's a third gen.

 

Clones?  See above.    For what it's worth, I'll say again that this pistol looks brand new, maybe even unfired.

 

At least C and R is an option.   That gives me access to older guns for potentially reasonable prices.

[Texas John Ringo, SASS #10138]

If it was made by ASM Colt parts will fit.

 

[Rye Miles #13621]

I realize supply and demand but $700.00 is TWICE as much! That's just plain greed!

[John Barleycorn, SASS #76982]

In MA can you convert a cap and ball to cartridge? If so is there a C&B gun you like the feel of?

[sourdoughjim]

On 1/25/2020 at 3:15 PM, Three Foot Johnson said:

$700 + tax? Ay yi yi...

 

I've got four of 'em in .38-40, and one thing I've found is the cylinder tends to over-rotate when you're shooting fast. The easy fix was some thick grease on the base pin to provide some resistance. 

 

 

Your cylinder overtravel problem when "shooting fast" is due to the fact that the bolt head does not fit the cylinder stop slots correctly. It is too wide, as is evident on 3 of the 4 guns (second from the top seems OK) because you can see where the bolt is contacting both sides of the stop slot when entering it upon firing the revolver. It is an easy fix by removing just enough of the bolt "head" (that portion of the bolt that sits above the frame at full cock or hammer down positions: do not remove any material below that as that area rides in the bolt slot of the frame) on the left side. You can even give that side a very slight taper at the top to guide the bolt into the slot, but do not remove any material from the right side, as that is what locks the cylinder in line with the barrel bore.

 

Your thick grease idea to slow down the cylinder rotation, if it works,  just slows down the rotation movement of the cylinder on the arbor, which is not helping you in the long run.

 

It happens a lot with Pietta C&B Navies/Armies but not so much with Ubertis. Pietta has the proper fit of the bolt to the frame slot, but needs fitting above the frame. Uberti bolts have a bit looser frame slot fit but have the proper head configuration above the frame.

 

Don't take my word for it. Pettifogger (over 12 years ago) published the basic standard for tuning Pietta and Uberti revolvers, to include 1873 clones. Download the .pdf files for the Pietta 2-part series and the Uberti 4-part series. Save the files on your machine because they have been lost online before. It's free:

 

https://archive.org/download/PettiFogger_Files/TOR Posts pdf/

 

I am in the process of doing the same with a 30-year-old Pietta 1851 Navy .36 that some Bubba used his trusty files and ineptness on both the bolt and the hand. New parts to be fitted, and the old stuff goes into the trash can.

 

Happy gunsmithing!

 

Regards,

 

Jim

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

I have to disagree and offer a caution.  DO NOT "taper" either side of the Bolt.  The sides MUST remain vertical and at 90 degrees.  If the bolt does not fit the cylinder slots, carefully file the "trailing" (short) side of the bolt to fit keeping the filed area parallel to the leading side.  Then lightly break the top of training edge.  The top radius of the bolt should be nice and smooth (polished perhaps).

[Three Foot Johnson]

Reading up on these things, over-rotation of the cylinder is a VERY common complaint - if it is indeed the fit of the bolt to cylinder, it seems odd that such a chronic problem was never addressed during the production run.

[sourdoughjim]

I did not advise tapering the sides of the bolt, just the top. Here is a photo:

 

 

Remove the cylinder, blacken the entire portion of the bolt that protrudes through the frame, replace the cylinder, and cycle the revolver a couple dozen times, remove the cylinder, and look at the bolt to see where it is hitting the cylinder/stop slots.

 

Regards,

 

Jim

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

On 1/26/2020 at 8:52 AM, John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 said:

In MA can you convert a cap and ball to cartridge? If so is there a C&B gun you like the feel of?

 

You can purchase C&B revolvers in Massachusetts.   You don't even need a permit for them.   We actually follow federal law and they are considered to not be firearms.

 

There are also no rules about doing cartridge conversions, but one you do them, it is a firearm you have to have your Licence to Carry to own them.  LTC is what we call a CCW here in the Commonwealth.

 

At the moment, I own the following C&B revolvers, all of which have conversion cylinders.

 

1 Walker

1 Dragoon

1 1860

4 58 Remingtons   (5 if you count the one the left the Remington factory as a conversion)

1 Rogers and Spencer

1 51 Colt (This one is my "Frankengun" Pepperbox conversion.)

 

It is just about the only way you can get a new SASS type revolver that is not a Ruger in this state.

 

 

 

 

[Goody, SASS #26190]

Draconian!

[Russ The Red]

On 1/26/2020 at 6:29 PM, sourdoughjim said:

 

Your cylinder overtravel problem when "shooting fast" is due to the fact that the bolt head does not fit the cylinder stop slots correctly. It is too wide, as is evident on 3 of the 4 guns (second from the top seems OK) because you can see where the bolt is contacting both sides of the stop slot when entering it upon firing the revolver. It is an easy fix by removing just enough of the bolt "head" (that portion of the bolt that sits above the frame at full cock or hammer down positions: do not remove any material below that as that area rides in the bolt slot of the frame) on the left side. You can even give that side a very slight taper at the top to guide the bolt into the slot, but do not remove any material from the right side, as that is what locks the cylinder in line with the barrel bore.

 

Your thick grease idea to slow down the cylinder rotation, if it works,  just slows down the rotation movement of the cylinder on the arbor, which is not helping you in the long run.

 

It happens a lot with Pietta C&B Navies/Armies but not so much with Ubertis. Pietta has the proper fit of the bolt to the frame slot, but needs fitting above the frame. Uberti bolts have a bit looser frame slot fit but have the proper head configuration above the frame.

 

Don't take my word for it. Pettifogger (over 12 years ago) published the basic standard for tuning Pietta and Uberti revolvers, to include 1873 clones. Download the .pdf files for the Pietta 2-part series and the Uberti 4-part series. Save the files on your machine because they have been lost online before. It's free:

 

https://archive.org/download/PettiFogger_Files/TOR Posts pdf/

 

I am in the process of doing the same with a 30-year-old Pietta 1851 Navy .36 that some Bubba used his trusty files and ineptness on both the bolt and the hand. New parts to be fitted, and the old stuff goes into the trash can.

 

Happy gunsmithing!

 

Regards,

 

Jim

I am always impressed with the knowledge certain people have about guns used in CAS. These files are so detailed and imformative. Thank you very much for posting these. I know not all of the suggestions are going to be perfect but they make understanding the gun that much better. I love the detailed inspectiona nd suggestions for improvement. A lot to read but interesting for the owner and shooter.

 

Russ the Red 

[sourdoughjim]

20 hours ago, Russ The Red said:

I am always impressed with the knowledge certain people have about guns used in CAS. These files are so detailed and imformative. Thank you very much for posting these. I know not all of the suggestions are going to be perfect but they make understanding the gun that much better. I love the detailed inspectiona nd suggestions for improvement. A lot to read but interesting for the owner and shooter.

 

Russ the Red 

 

Thanks for the kind response! I am glad that you found the literature interesting, as have I. I am not a SASS member, nor am I a CAS guy. I enjoy viewing posts on the SASS Wire that concern guns and not the posts that concern all the rules and aspects of your sport. These years I am primarily interested in replica BP Colt-type revolvers from all manufacturers (Uberti, Pietta, Armi San Marco, Armi San Paolo, etc.), new and old, no matter the type/model. I tend to stay away from the Colt 2nd and 3rd Gen revolvers, only because they are far more expensive to collect as shooters. I can see from other posts here that others on the SASS Wire have similar attachments toward cartridge Colts for collector purposes which drives the prices for such items very high, and they don't want to shoot them because of that. To me, guns are tools, and I only own one replica revolver that qualifies as a collector item: it is a Pietta 1862 J.H. Dance & Brothers .36 of which only 35 were produced in 1996, and I don't shoot it. (Photo below.) The Italian factories don't produce perfectly functioning revolvers as a rule because they are created for the masses who shoot them and really don't care if they could function better. They are priced cost effectively so that folks like me can do a better job than the factory can because I have a lot of (retired) time on my hands.

 

Thanks to the mods here that continue to allow me to post as a Guest.

 

Regards,

 

Jim

 

[Russ The Red]

2 hours ago, sourdoughjim said:

 

Thanks for the kind response! I am glad that you found the literature interesting, as have I. I am not a SASS member, nor am I a CAS guy. I enjoy viewing posts on the SASS Wire that concern guns and not the posts that concern all the rules and aspects of your sport. These years I am primarily interested in replica BP Colt-type revolvers from all manufacturers (Uberti, Pietta, Armi San Marco, Armi San Paolo, etc.), new and old, no matter the type/model. I tend to stay away from the Colt 2nd and 3rd Gen revolvers, only because they are far more expensive to collect as shooters. I can see from other posts here that others on the SASS Wire have similar attachments toward cartridge Colts for collector purposes which drives the prices for such items very high, and they don't want to shoot them because of that. To me, guns are tools, and I only own one replica revolver that qualifies as a collector item: it is a Pietta 1862 J.H. Dance & Brothers .36 of which only 35 were produced in 1996, and I don't shoot it. (Photo below.) The Italian factories don't produce perfectly functioning revolvers as a rule because they are created for the masses who shoot them and really don't care if they could function better. They are priced cost effectively so that folks like me can do a better job than the factory can because I have a lot of (retired) time on my hands.

 

Thanks to the mods here that continue to allow me to post as a Guest.

 

Regards,

 

Jim

 

 

Jim,

 

Like many people, I wish I had begun collecting years ago. As a kid in Oklahoma, I saw tons of old guns sold in Army Surplus stores. We lived next to Fort Sill in Lawton. Later in Dodge City I worked a a gun shop and again saw tons of pistols, single action colts. We had a basket at the end of the counter and you could pick any one of the guns for $25. I didn't want the old stuff, I was interested in getting a new Remington in .270.  Great pistol. I saw one of these the other day and the Guy was shooting it as a backup at a SASS match. I remember him telling me about the changes made to save on material and cost. The rich history of firearms from 1830 to 1870 is so fascinating. From smooth bore cap and ball, to rifled center fired cartridges. Write to me any time. I too am a enthusiast.   Russ