Crazy Gun Barney, SASS #2428 Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 I have a Smith and Wesson 4th model double action 32 S&W. This was my grandmother's gun. As the story goes, her brother got it for her when he and my grandfather were going to be going to WW2. It was taken back from her by my great aunt (her brother's wife) sometime in the late 50's when she was drunk and was headed out the door with it to "take care of that PIA neighbor". My great aunt kept it in her dresser (along with my Great Uncle's gen 1 Colt) until she passed away 10 years ago or so. My dad gave these both to me. OK, backstory over. So I noticed that there are three notches filed into the frame. They dont really look like "dinks", they look more like purposely added notches. I have no idea where the gun was before it came into my family in the 1940's. Movies and fiction books always talk about gunfighters added notches to "keep score". Did this really happen? Any other idea on why these notches are here? I am sending off today to get a letter from S&W on this gun. I would like to know if the Ivory was factory or added sometime later. There are traces of some sort of plating left, I wonder if that was factory as well, and what kind of plating it was. Hopefully the S&W letter will let me know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Kit Cool Gun Garth Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 Just a few resources.... http://chrisenss.com/gun-notching/ https://truewestmagazine.com/did-gunfighters-carve-notches-in-their-guns/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trigger Mike Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 I had a German 98k rifle from ww2 and it had 6 notches behind the trigger guard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpo Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 Thought you might like to know this. There is no such thing as a Number 4 Smith & Wesson. Smith & Wesson made a Number 1, a Number 1½, a Number 2, a Number 2½ and a Number 3. These numbers refer to frame sizes, the same way as the I, the Improved I, the J, the K, the L, the M, the N and the X refer to frame sizes. What you have is a DA32. During the life of the manufacturing run of the pistol Smith made modifications. Collectors have numbered the modifications. If you believe that is a Model 4, most likely it is a DA32, 4th model. That means it is the third modification made to the basic pistol. The original pistol would be first model, the first modification would be a second model, second modification would be a third model, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 Some folks notched their guns to keep count ,,,, and some Folks didn't count Indians in the Count .... Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Gun Barney, SASS #2428 Posted January 23, 2020 Author Share Posted January 23, 2020 Thanks Alpo. Yup, I was a bit confused on what to call it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixgun Sheridan Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 Maybe your grandmother took care of that PIA neighbor after all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Angus McPherson Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 I have a very similar S&W in .38 S&W caliber. It belonged to great grandfather in Iowa(?). It was loaned to a deputy sheriff who was chasing a couple horse thieves. He caught up to them at a farm and ended up shooting them while they were trying to hide behind a well. He put two small notches at the bottom of the grip. At least that's the story that's been handed down with the gun to my grandfather and to me. The notches are very real and plain to see. I can only believe that the story to go with them is true. I've always wondered why a deputy sheriff didn't have a gun of his own. Angus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 I put four notches on the fake ivory grips I made to represent four clean matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixgun Sheridan Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 36 minutes ago, Black Angus McPherson said: I've always wondered why a deputy sheriff didn't have a gun of his own. Well, in the thread below there is a link to a shotgun Wyatt Earp allegedly borrowed during his hunt for Curly Bill. Also the Cody, Wyoming museum has a Colt SAA also allegedly borrowed and carried by Earp during the same vendetta ride. Apparently letting others borrow your guns to go kill people with was considered an okay practice back then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Hangtree Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 21 minutes ago, Warden Callaway said: I put four notches on the fake ivory grips I made to represent four clean matches. That explains why the grips on my .45's are still pristine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967 Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 Very cool piece, Barney. But whatever you do, don't EVER offer it up for sale with those ivory grips ~ that'd get you a $5K - $40K fine and up to a year in the hoosegow in california. Thank yew, Moonbeam... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixgun Sheridan Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 5 minutes ago, Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967 said: Very cool piece, Barney. But whatever you do, don't EVER offer it up for sale with those ivory grips ~ that'd get you a $5K - $40K fine and up to a year in the hoosegow in california. Thank yew, Moonbeam... Seriously?!? Selling something with 100+ year-old ivory on it can get you thrown in the slammer? I guess CA prisons aren't full enough and they need to populate them some more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Gun Barney, SASS #2428 Posted January 23, 2020 Author Share Posted January 23, 2020 Yup Hardpan, this piece aint ever leaving the family. Heck I haven't even fired this one yet. Seems to work fine in DA, but wont stay cocked in single action. I need to get stuff to load some BP loads to try this out. It was very cool when I was able to fire the first gen SAA. That one needed some fixing that was beyond me. When I got it back from the 'smith, and got some BP 44-40 loads put together, many members of the family came with me to the range to get a chance to fire Uncle Porter's Colt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster Ron Wayne Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 15 minutes ago, Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967 said: Very cool piece, Barney. But whatever you do, don't EVER offer it up for sale with those ivory grips ~ that'd get you a $5K - $40K fine and up to a year in the hoosegow in california. Thank yew, Moonbeam... Got to love Kalifornia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Gun Barney, SASS #2428 Posted January 23, 2020 Author Share Posted January 23, 2020 11 minutes ago, Sixgun Sheridan said: Seriously?!? Selling something with 100+ year-old ivory on it can get you thrown in the slammer? I guess CA prisons aren't full enough and they need to populate them some more. There is a provision in the law for antiques (i just looked it up)... (4) Ivory or rhinoceros horn that is part of a bona fide antique and that is less than five percent by volume of the antique, if the antique status is established by the owner or seller of the antique with historical documentation demonstrating provenance and showing the antique to be not less than 100 years old. There is also an allowance for musical instruments providing the ivory is less than 20 percent per volume as long as there is proof that it was made before 1975... here is the law if you are interested... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967 Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 16 minutes ago, Sixgun Sheridan said: Seriously?!? Selling something with 100+ year-old ivory on it can get you thrown in the slammer? I guess CA prisons aren't full enough and they need to populate them some more. Yup. As of July 01, 2016. Quote The ban, which can be found in California Fish and Game Code, section 2022, encompasses teeth and tusks of elephant, hippopotamus, mammoth, mastodon, walrus, warthog, whale and narwhal, as well as rhinoceros horn, regardless of whether it is raw, worked or powdered, or from a store or a private collection. Under the law, advertising the sale of any items containing ivory is also strictly prohibited... Limited exceptions may include: Ivory or rhino horn that is part of a bona fide antique (with historical documentation showing the antique is at least 100 years old) provided the item is less than 5 percent ivory or rhino horn by volume; Ivory or rhino horn that is part of a musical instrument (with documentation of pre-1975 construction) provided the instrument contains less than 20 percent ivory or rhino horn by volume Gotta protect them woolly mammoths and mastadons, don'tcha know. I'm surprised they didn't include unicorn. Must've been an oversight! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noz Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 3 hours ago, Crazy Gun Barney, SASS #2428 said: I have a Smith and Wesson 4th model double action 32 S&W. This was my grandmother's gun. As the story goes, her brother got it for her when he and my grandfather were going to be going to WW2. It was taken back from her by my great aunt (her brother's wife) sometime in the late 50's when she was drunk and was headed out the door with it to "take care of that PIA neighbor". My great aunt kept it in her dresser (along with my Great Uncle's gen 1 Colt) until she passed away 10 years ago or so. My dad gave these both to me. OK, backstory over. So I noticed that there are three notches filed into the frame. They dont really look like "dinks", they look more like purposely added notches. I have no idea where the gun was before it came into my family in the 1940's. Movies and fiction books always talk about gunfighters added notches to "keep score". Did this really happen? Any other idea on why these notches are here? I am sending off today to get a letter from S&W on this gun. I would like to know if the Ivory was factory or added sometime later. There are traces of some sort of plating left, I wonder if that was factory as well, and what kind of plating it was. Hopefully the S&W letter will let me know. I have 3 notches cut into the frame of my 1860s to remind me of the three category wins a major shoots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpo Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 So would I have to prove that the gun is over a hundred years old, or that the grips have been on the gun for over a hundred years? Showing that gun is over a hundred years old would be simple. Serial number. But even if a Smith & Wesson letter said that it left the factory with ivory grips, how the hell could you prove that those were the actual original ivory grips? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Gun Barney, SASS #2428 Posted January 23, 2020 Author Share Posted January 23, 2020 That is why it isn't worth even trying. Like I mentioned, this is a family heirloom and wont be sold. Wait a minute... guns make noise which is kind of like music to me. Think I could make the argument that it is actually a percussion based musical instrument? Then I only need to prove it existed prior to 1975. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyrus Cassidy #45437 Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 I have two Aston Johnson pistols (US Army issue from the Mexican-American War). One of them has notches on it that look very suggestive of a kill record. It seems as though some soldier, likely an officer because it was a pistol, kept track of how many Mexicans he had shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 50 minutes ago, Crazy Gun Barney, SASS #2428 said: Yup Hardpan, this piece aint ever leaving the family. Heck I haven't even fired this one yet. Seems to work fine in DA, but wont stay cocked in single action. I need to get stuff to load some BP loads to try this out. It was very cool when I was able to fire the first gen SAA. That one needed some fixing that was beyond me. When I got it back from the 'smith, and got some BP 44-40 loads put together, many members of the family came with me to the range to get a chance to fire Uncle Porter's Colt. It won't stay cocked because the sear is worn. I'd be hesitant to fire it if it was mine. Does the cylinder have any movement fore and aft (a.k.a. cylinder end shake)? If it's excessive, head space will be adversely affected and you may have some FTF. The cylinder/barrel gap may also be affected, resulting in gas cutting. Does the cylinder lock up tight before the hammer drops? Original plating would have been nickel. .32 DA 4th model serial number range is 43406-28299. Roughly 239,600 were manufactured between 1883 and 1909. Purely guessing, but the three notches could be a way of marking ownership of the gun. However, marking gunfights is more interesting! Cool piece of family history! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Gun Barney, SASS #2428 Posted January 23, 2020 Author Share Posted January 23, 2020 3 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said: It won't stay cocked because the sear is worn. I'd be hesitant to fire it if it was mine. Does the cylinder have any movement fore and aft (a.k.a. cylinder end shake)? If it's excessive, head space will be adversely affected and you may have some FTF. The cylinder/barrel gap may also be affected, resulting in gas cutting. Original plating would have been nickel. .32 DA 4th model serial number range is 43406-28299. Roughly 239,600 were manufactured between 1883 and 1909. Cool piece of history! Thanks! This one is in the low 5xxxx range. I showed this to the gunsmith that did the work on my SAA. CRS has me bad today, I can't recall his name, but he did great work on my SAA. He used to work out Walker 47 when they were still up on Orangethorpe. I had asked if it was safe to fire. He took a look at it and said it would be fine to fire occasionally with BP loads (no modern ammo). I didn't really get a warm fuzzy feeling with this answer, but it was a free opinion and you get what you pay for. Probably why I haven't tried to fire it yet. Truth be told, I would prefer to find a smith that knows this type of animal and can give me a better answer, and perhaps fix the sear or hammer to correct the single action issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 I have a 4 3 minutes ago, Crazy Gun Barney, SASS #2428 said: Thanks! This one is in the low 5xxxx range. I showed this to the gunsmith that did the work on my SAA. CRS has me bad today, I can't recall his name, but he did great work on my SAA. He used to work out Walker 47 when they were still up on Orangethorpe. I had asked if it was safe to fire. He took a look at it and said it would be fine to fire occasionally with BP loads (no modern ammo). I didn't really get a warm fuzzy feeling with this answer, but it was a free opinion and you get what you pay for. Probably why I haven't tried to fire it yet. Truth be told, I would prefer to find a smith that knows this type of animal and can give me a better answer, and perhaps fix the sear or hammer to correct the single action issue. I have a .38 DA 4th model that belonged to my dad. It also has a moderately worn sear and some end shake, but locks up tight. I looked into having it repaired but the cost far exceeds the value of the gun, which is less than $100. I’d be interested to hearing what you find out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crooked River Pete, SASS 43485 Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 46 minutes ago, Crazy Gun Barney, SASS #2428 said: Wait a minute... guns make noise which is kind of like music to me. Think I could make the argument that it is actually a percussion based musical instrument? Then I only need to prove it existed prior to 1975. Used exclusively for the 1812 Overture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpo Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 My understanding is that parts for that beast (and all other Smith break top pocket pistols) are quite rare, and gunsmiths who know how to work on them are even rarer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpo Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 My father had a lodge brother, 50 years ago. He had an 1873 Winchester. First one I had ever seen. He said he used it as a pattern. When people came to him with one that was broken, he would disassemble his, find the part that was needed to fix theirs, and make the part, using his for a pattern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injun Ryder, SASS #36201L Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 2 hours ago, Crazy Gun Barney, SASS #2428 said: I showed this to the gunsmith that did the work on my SAA. CRS has me bad today, I can't recall his name, but he did great work on my SAA. He used to work out Walker 47 when they were still up on Orangethorpe. I had asked if it was safe to fire. He took a look at it and said it would be fine to fire occasionally with BP loads (no modern ammo). I didn't really get a warm fuzzy feeling with this answer, but it was a free opinion and you get what you pay for. Probably why I haven't tried to fire it yet. Truth be told, I would prefer to find a smith that knows this type of animal and can give me a better answer, and perhaps fix the sear or hammer to correct the single action issue. Bob Shaw? He passed away a few years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAYOBARD SASS #13025L Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 It couldn’t have been Bob Shaw. I knew Bob. He worked on two of my 1st Generation Colts. He fixed the notches on both hammers, and turned the barrels so they shot point of aim. He was an excellent gunsmith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Gun Barney, SASS #2428 Posted January 24, 2020 Author Share Posted January 24, 2020 It was Bob Shaw. He had to recut the cylinder notches in my SAA to repair damage from an extra vigorous buffing when it had been re-blued sometime in the late 50's or early 60's, along with some other fixes. Turned a paperweight back into a shootable Colt again! Great guy, sorry I couldn't remember his name yesterday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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