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Brass 12 Gauge Unanswered Question


Tequila Shooter

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I found a 4 year old 5 page post about loading 12ga brass shotshells, lots of great information.  But there was one question that was asked at least 3 times and I never saw an answer to it "can you get a roll crimp with anything other than the RCBS Dies".    http:// Shooting brass 12 ga BP ?   

 

I've been toying with the idea of trying the brass hulls but what is holding me back is spending money on not only the RCBS Dies, but also a single stage press to use them in (current press inventory Dillion SDB; Dillon 650; and a MEC Sizemaster).

 

So I'll ask again, is there another way of putting a roll crimp on a brass hull besides the RCBS die set?

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Forget the RCBS dies for brass hulls. They won't resize them. CH4D makes a resizing die that does and they also make a crimping die that will put as big a roll crimp as you want.

They are not cheap, but if you want 12 ga dies that work on brass hulls these are it.

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Second Beartrap on this one. RCBS Dies are useless on the 12g brass. CH4D is the way to go. Had to do this recently myself, and went with the RCBS Summit press. 

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I'm thinking he wants something cheaper,  not more expensive.  

 

I think I seen somewhere where a guy used a copper pipe reducer to substitute for a crimping tool. 

 

I suspect most folks that load brass hulls don't crimp.  It's just a lot simpler to just glue in a top card. 

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I use a socket that has a taper inside. Hold the socket against the underside of the top of a single stage press and gently press the shell into it, puts a nice roll crimp on it. The crimp only has to be done once, after it is shot it will still be there. If you want pics pm me your cell # and I will text them to you.

kR

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22 minutes ago, Kid Rich said:

I use a socket that has a taper inside. Hold the socket against the underside of the top of a single stage press and gently press the shell into it, puts a nice roll crimp on it. The crimp only has to be done once, after it is shot it will still be there. If you want pics pm me your cell # and I will text them to you.

kR

 

Please post the pictures here?

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The CH4D's will do the crimp the same as the RCBS.   They are much more expensive, and as stated the RCBS do not resize, which may be an issue if you use the brass in multiple guns.  (It was for me, which is why I switched from RCBS to CH4D.)  You also have to lube the cases if you go with the CH4D ones.  I also got a set of them for 20 Gauge, and they are available for other sizes.

 

You DO need a a press that accepts larger dies, neither make will fit in a standard press.

 

The reason I put a slight crimp on them is to make sure they will cycle properly from the magazine.  If you don't crimp just a little, unless everything lines up perfectly, you can get a jam.   Find the minimum workable crimp, and you are good to go.  Here's a pic...

 

Crimp.jpg.3d44e8a1e73cb3fa3e56134365aaa709.jpg

 

The left is a Magtech, crimped with the CH4D dies.  The right is one of the new Winchester WWII commemorative shells.  As stated above, the RCBS dies produce the exact same crimp.

 

Cards.thumb.jpg.2022048e123f08a5177d100a48355741.jpg

 

As you can see on the left, the crimp can also hold the overshot card in place without the aide of glue.


And contrary to what some will say, you can load smokeless in them just fine.  For proof of that, I submit the following...

 

891945202_BrassHeadstamp.thumb.jpg.833faf9aa9edba08ac82b0713c8d82b2.jpg

 

These are two older Remington hulls.  Internally, the look pretty much identical to the Magtechs, and as you can see on the one on the left, they came from the factory loaded with smokeless powder.

 

Good luck.

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2 hours ago, Warden Callaway said:

I'm thinking he wants something cheaper,  not more expensive.  You are correct!

 

I think I seen somewhere where a guy used a copper pipe reducer to substitute for a crimping tool.  Any pics or link to a thread (I couldn't find one)  

 

I suspect most folks that load brass hulls don't crimp.  It's just a lot simpler to just glue in a top card.  Since I'm only using 1 SG I thought to crimp only to make loading into SxS easier.  I'm still going to use card and glue to keep a good seal.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326 said:

Depending on the amount of crimp you want, I used the final stage of my Mec loader and started the crimp.

 

Excellent idea.:excl:

 

The very last stage of my MEC progressive puts a slight taper on the finished hulls. Should work on brass with a little experimentation.

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2 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

And contrary to what some will say, you can load smokeless in them just fine.  For proof of that, I submit the following.

 

I'm a contrary.   

 

Magtech box says, "Never substitute smokeless powder for black powder or Pyrodex because smokeless is much more powerful than black.".  And I agree.  Magtech hulls are of a balloon design and very thin at bottom and around primer. The volume is considerably greater than a plastic or paper hull.

 

While some brass hulls were designed and loaded with smokeless powder but what smokeless powder and components?  I've never seen published data.  Likely,  even if know, the powder and components are no longer available.  

 

I'm sticking to black or BlackMZ.   Besides,  what's the point of brass hulls if you ain't going to make smoke and smell?

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56 minutes ago, Warden Callaway said:

 

I'm a contrary.   

 

Magtech box says, "Never substitute smokeless powder for black powder or Pyrodex because smokeless is much more powerful than black.".  And I agree.  Magtech hulls are of a balloon design and very thin at bottom and around primer. The volume is considerably greater than a plastic or paper hull.

 

While some brass hulls were designed and loaded with smokeless powder but what smokeless powder and components?  I've never seen published data.  Likely,  even if know, the powder and components are no longer available.  

 

I'm sticking to black or BlackMZ.   Besides,  what's the point of brass hulls if you ain't going to make smoke and smell?

 

Okay, yes, a simple substitution of black for smokeless is not a good thing.    But you don't just do a 1 to 1 substitution, you put in the same amount of powder, in my case, Red Dot, that I put in my AA's.   The Remington's that I have that are headstamped with the word "SMOKELESS" are balloon head cases.

 

So too are the Winchester commemorative WW2 shells, (at least according to the diagram of how they are made on the website, I've not fired them yet) and they are also loaded with smokeless powder.

 

The point is, brass hulls are super cool to look at, they are really fun to shoot, they can be used in older guns with shorter chambers without having to modify your gun or go to all the hassle of trimming plastic ones, and you are assured that the brass pickers will pick em up and give them back to you, something that doesn't happen at a lot of shoots unless you constantly remind them that you want them.   None of that is diminished by the fact that you are shooting smokeless out of them.  :)

 

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1 hour ago, Warden Callaway said:

My old Winchester 1887 feeds uncrimped Magtech hulls just fine. 

 

I do agree that a roll or taper crimp would aid in loading a double barrel.  But I'd think it would be a pain to reload without removing the crimp.

 

Firing the shells takes the crimp out.

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4 hours ago, Warden Callaway said:

 

My old Winchester 1887 feeds uncrimped Magtech hulls just fine. 

 

I do agree that a roll or taper crimp would aid in loading a double barrel.  But I'd think it would be a pain to reload without removing the crimp.

That depends entirely on how aggressive a crimp you put on it. I also found with BP that firing them does not remove the crimp.

kR

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PLUS ONE too Irish Ike.  Plus I like to take the "other" direction.  I shoot All Brass Magtech 12Ga exclusively.  To make them absolutely reliable, I use a lightly used (got it cheap) Lee Classic single stage to de-prime and prime with the RCBS Die.  I DO NOT shoot smokeless of any kind in Magtech hulls.  I shoot APP or BP.

First question ... Why would you want to crimp the hulls??  The crimp only makes them harder to reload and BP and APP DOES NOT remove the crimp.  Unless you are feeding a 97 or 87, the crimp is a waste of time.  If you are worried about shooting fast, shoot plastic, not Brass.

 

I load for 5 (soon to be 6) Hammer Double shotguns.  I report I have NEVER needed to resize Magtech hulls.  EVER.  Unless some klutz steps on one.  The hulls I have have ben thru all the guns at least a dozen times.  NO resizing.

 

A CAVEAT:  I found priming with other then a press of some sort resulted in far too many "fail to fire."  After switching to the Lee and the RCBS Die my Brass 12Ga have been 100% reliable.  Any used single stage your can screw the RCBS into will suffice.  All Brass Hulls are FUN!!!

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14 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

First question ... Why would you want to crimp the hulls??  The crimp only makes them harder to reload and BP and APP DOES NOT remove the crimp.  Unless you are feeding a 97 or 87, the crimp is a waste of time.  If you are worried about shooting fast, shoot plastic, not Brass.

I

 

Well, I usually run a 97, and occasionally an 87, and I even use the brass for Wild Bunch shooting, so having that slight crimp does help with feeding from the magazine.   I'm surprised to hear that your black powder loads don't remove the crimp.  On the occasions when I have loaded black, the crimp has blown out just fine.  Maybe it depends on how much powder and/or shot you use?   And the smokeless rounds do just fine in taking the crimp out.   I am running 1-1/8 ounces of shot, the same I use in trap loads.   I've heard some folks say that's a lot more shot than needed.  Maybe that has something to do with it.

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