Tennessee williams Posted January 15, 2020 Share Posted January 15, 2020 36 minutes ago, Marshal Chance Morgun said: "Or say maybe the stage says shoot the shotgun from a table starting with it in hand. I'll not crowd the table but be a good step back(where I can still ground it) and shoot." That's fine. No problem. Standing with just the tip of your boot behind the table. Some call that being a gamer. You decide if that is a good thing or bad. But I'm pretty sure that is what the writer had in mind. And God help us if we have to start writing. "Standing between 6 and 18 inches behind the center point of the table...." If it doesn't say from behind the table, I don't see a problem with it. That doesn't mean that someone else can't crowd the table like they're trying to make little baby tables if they want to. Bottom line is, not everybody enjoys SASS for the same reasons. Some want to shoot clean regardless of time, some want to dress the part down to the socks. I applaud them for whatever reason keeps them coming back and I'd never knock them for it. I just like for people to let me enjoy why I like coming too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted January 15, 2020 Share Posted January 15, 2020 22 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said: If it doesn't say from behind the table, I don't see a problem with it. That doesn't mean that someone else can't crowd the table like they're trying to make little baby tables if they want to. Bottom line is, not everybody enjoys SASS for the same reasons. Some want to shoot clean regardless of time, some want to dress the part down to the socks. I applaud them for whatever reason keeps them coming back and I'd never knock them for it. I just like for people to let me enjoy why I like coming too. Careful now. You’re using logic and fairness and live and let live. Things could get ugly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted January 15, 2020 Share Posted January 15, 2020 There are those who apparently have an incorrect perception of 'gamer' when it comes to being competitive. And here are a couple examples: A gamer might choose to stand behind a table than at the edge because the number of steps required to move to the next shooting position will be to their advantage..... even if it might be a shade further. Some 'gamers' might choose to take 3 steps instead of 2 1/2 steps because of how they prefer to be in a 'shooting position' when they get to their next shooting position. Half steps can mess up a good stage run. Another 'gamer' will stage their long guns in a position where they can see their targets better when they get to their shooting position... even if it might mean a slight step further movement than required. And my last example might surprise some of you so be sure to have your boots planted solidly in the sturrips and don't fall out of your high saddles: Someone who really 'games' our sport and desires to excel normally DOES NOT use lightly loaded ammo. Actually, quite the contrary. You're top shooters want their ammo to be decisive and consistent in firing AND prefer their bullets get down range fast. Light, inconsistent ammo is not a 'gamers' best friend. I don't know every top notch shooter but I know a few AND I have shot with a few and their ammo ain't light stuff. Their springs in their guns haven't been tweaked to the Nth degree of performance. Thats just a failure to function waiting to happen. And when a stage allows some variations in firearm order and stage movements, a 'gamer' will choose to move Right to Left, or Left to Right, depending upon how it best suits their 'gamer' advantage..... Just like ALL the rest of us. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MizPete Posted January 15, 2020 Share Posted January 15, 2020 Clearly, it depends on where you're from. Widder, I'm in direct opposition to your definition. What you describe is a serious competitor; nothing wrong with that. The founding fathers of our local club (formed, I think, in the 1980's) from whom I learned the ropes defined 'gamer' as someone who wanted to win so badly s/he would bend the rules, cut corners, try to confuse the spotters or bully their way out of penalties -- all that not-the-cowboy-way sort of behavior. Our original stage writer worked very hard to present stages deliberately designed to slow these people down , and required Baptist interpretation (if it doesn't say you can, you can't). I'm sooooooooo glad we're beyond that, but I'm so indoctrinated that N-T-C-W behavior still crawls all over my ex-husband nerve like not much else can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WOLFY Posted January 15, 2020 Share Posted January 15, 2020 there’s a natural drive to be competitive... otherwise why have a timer? gamer imho is what MizPete describes: “bully their way out of penalties” etc. if the match was more fun without ‘em, they’re prolly gamers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted January 15, 2020 Share Posted January 15, 2020 MizPete, Something to ponder: When a stage writer designs a stage to 'deliberately' slow down a certain group of shooters, would that not be conceived as 'gaming', using your definition of that word? Seems to me the biggest bully would be that stage writer/designer. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee williams Posted January 15, 2020 Share Posted January 15, 2020 50 minutes ago, WOLFY said: there’s a natural drive to be competitive... otherwise why have a timer? gamer imho is what MizPete describes: “bully their way out of penalties” etc. if the match was more fun without ‘em, they’re prolly gamers. I have a name for that type person and it ain't gamer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee williams Posted January 15, 2020 Share Posted January 15, 2020 I've played different sports my whole life. The term gamer is not new to me. From wrestling, to football, boxing, Judo and even darts, it has always meant the same thing. I don't know why there is always confusion about a words meaning here on the wire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted January 15, 2020 Share Posted January 15, 2020 Gamer is not a dirty word The ones I know I call friend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barkeep Casey Posted January 15, 2020 Share Posted January 15, 2020 Many years ago the word was a negative connotation and was thrown around in jealousy. Usually by shooters that claimed they didn't care about their times or how they placed (Yet were always the first to post their successes or wear multiple buckles on their rigs). I credit Buck D. Law for singlehandedly breaking the stigma of the word when he introduced his card carrying "Gamer" cards. It made the word a badge of honor as it should be, and I still see the cards on many a hat band today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted January 15, 2020 Share Posted January 15, 2020 2 minutes ago, Barkeep Casey said: Many years ago the word was a negative connotation and was thrown around in jealousy. Usually by shooters that claimed they didn't care about their times or how they placed (Yet were always the first to post their successes or wear multiple buckles on their rigs). I credit Buck D. Law for singlehandedly breaking the stigma of the word when he introduced his card carrying "Gamer" cards. It made the word a badge of honor as it should be, and I still see the cards on many a hat band today. I'm proud to have one of those. Yes, I am a gamer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted January 15, 2020 Share Posted January 15, 2020 I don't know why anyone would ever want to use an established, 'legitimate' word that its 'official meaning' projects NO derogatory meaning and start using it in a negative connotation when trying to define someone's good 'sporting' character or personality. As TN Williams has noted, "Gamer" is a far cry from 'cheater'. TN Williams makes no money teaching proper usages of English..... But he'll let you buy the Nanner Splits next time he holds classes. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seamus McGillicuddy Posted January 15, 2020 Share Posted January 15, 2020 When I started SASS I was mentored by a couple of shooters who did everything they could to make things more difficult for themselves; shooting full load black powder big bore cartridges, duelist or gunfighter etc. Sometimes they used cap and ball, preferably Walkers or Dragoons, and in a couple matches they even used muzzle loading rifles from our Civil War Skirmishing activities. Never worried much about their times. The goal was to personally squeeze as much fun factor out of a match as possible. Pretty much everyone else they called a gamer but always in a lighthearted and kidding way. I don’t think I have ever heard the term uttered in a serious manner! Seamus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 5 hours ago, Barkeep Casey said: I credit Buck D. Law for singlehandedly breaking the stigma of the word when he introduced his card carrying "Gamer" cards. It made the word a badge of honor as it should be, and I still see the cards on many a hat band today. I have one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palmetto Traveller Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 Gamer...anybody that outshoots me. So that means there's a whole heap of y'all out there. Around our crowd it's pretty much used for fun but I agree with others in that it's someone that works extra hard to excel. Cheaters got no place in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baltimore Ed Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 Not trying to step on any toes but the question was asked. I don’t mind someone who thinks outside the box [a good thing] or pushes up to the line in order to gain an edge as in target order, reduced loads or shooting from a better but legal location but it drives me crazy when big grown up men shoot pistol primer loads out of their .32 or .38 revolvers and a little more powder in their rifles so they don’t get a squib. And then add every gamer mod to their equipment for good measure. Of course theres the old SASS adage ‘they’re not in your category’ and they’re not in mine as I’ve always shot .45s, more or less stock firearms and as a duelist. But it’s not really cowboy, cowboyish maybe, its a fantasy sport and we can do pretty much what we want so lets all play the game and have a good time. Gamers gotta game, reenactors gotta reenact and the rest of us fall somewhere in between. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MizPete Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 23 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said: would that not be conceived as 'gaming', using your definition of that word? Well, maybe. But they weren't doing it with winning as a goal. They were trying to keep the game like they'd always played it. Yeah, it was a bit short-sighted, but they saw it as defending the 'purity' of the game. People are always doing stupid things out of love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 Was Buck shooting in 2005? That was when I got mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 22 hours ago, Barkeep Casey said: Many years ago the word was a negative connotation and was thrown around in jealousy. Usually by shooters that claimed they didn't care about their times or how they placed (Yet were always the first to post their successes or wear multiple buckles on their rigs). I credit Buck D. Law for singlehandedly breaking the stigma of the word when he introduced his card carrying "Gamer" cards. It made the word a badge of honor as it should be, and I still see the cards on many a hat band today. I got one of those from Buck also. I’m proud to be a gamer.!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 Hey, I got one from Buck several years ago. No Buck... I didn't do it! It wasn't me! Hahahaha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Brules Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 On 1/14/2020 at 11:12 AM, Black Angus McPherson said: WHOA! Hold on there pardner. Shoshone Slim has not yet passed on to the great beyond. He's not been in the best health the last few years, but at least his health is still counted on the positive side. He hopes to be able to get back on the range come Spring. Who knows, he might even venture down to Springfield for the MO State games again. He has not been on the SASS Wire for several years. He got put on a time out a couple times and just decided not to return. J-Bar, if you remember "gamer" I'm sure you must remember "Chok-lit He's been spending a lot of time with his grandbabies. I'll let him know he is remembered on the SASS Wire. He'll get a kick out of that. Black Angus McPherson Ohhhh So, “ Reports of his death have been greatly exaggerated!” Samuel Clemens/Mark Twain He’ll soit’enly be glad to hear THAT!!". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 Don't leave home without it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evil dogooder Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 The truth of the matter is there is no definition. To some its derogatory to others it's not. To me it's an insult, someone who instead of going by the spirit of the game, try's to take every advantage possible. The people that made it necessary to have the utterly embarrassing rule book situation we do now. Examples: welding saddle rings to make a kickstand. Steepleing pistols, multiple layers of leather rolled to hold shotgun shells away from the body, 12 ga shotgun shells crowned down to 20 guage.. those shooting under the pb requirement because they know they won't be called out on it. Leather wraps so large you can't move your fingers. The list is a mile long. All done by people trying to cheat the system, resulting in more pointless rules. Those to me are gamers. People of low integrity and not somebody I choose to associate with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee williams Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 14 hours ago, evil dogooder said: The truth of the matter is there is no definition. To some its derogatory to others it's not. To me it's an insult, someone who instead of going by the spirit of the game, try's to take every advantage possible. The people that made it necessary to have the utterly embarrassing rule book situation we do now. Examples: welding saddle rings to make a kickstand. Steepleing pistols, multiple layers of leather rolled to hold shotgun shells away from the body, 12 ga shotgun shells crowned down to 20 guage.. those shooting under the pb requirement because they know they won't be called out on it. Leather wraps so large you can't move your fingers. The list is a mile long. All done by people trying to cheat the system, resulting in more pointless rules. Those to me are gamers. People of low integrity and not somebody I choose to associate with. Actually, the truth of the matter is that there IS a definition of the word and it is not derogatory but in fact complementary. It's just that some people don't know the definition of the word. Everything you described defines the word cheater. Just because I don't have a nanner split to eat this morning, let's look at how "gamer" could've become ill-defined in the first place. Shooter runs the heck out of a stage. Mr so and so, knowing the shooter has been practicing, says out loud He is quite the gamer. Mr notso, next to him hears it and has no idea what it means. Instead of asking what Mr so and so means, he draws his own incorrect conclusions and starts using the word gamer incorrectly. For 30-35 years I have known the word gamer to be complementary. Exemplary even. Here is the definition of cheater and gamer: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irish Tom Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 See what you started Ed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Chance Morgun Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 Looks like we need Pale Wolf to chime in with an official ruling on what the proper term should be. When I first heard the term used, it was used to describe someone who was trying to get away with something outside the intended rules. My guess would be that it came from the phrase, "gaming the system." "Gaming the system. Gaming the system (also gaming or bending the rules, or rigging, abusing, cheating, milking, playing, cheating the system, working the system, or breaking the system) can be defined as using the rules and procedures meant to protect a system to, instead, manipulate the system for a desired outcome. " Yes, I agree that the most common use for a gamer is someone who gives maximum effort. The OP asked what the term "gamer" meant as it was used in SASS. Just because you don't like it used like that, doesn't mean that wasn't the intended meaning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee williams Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 1 hour ago, Marshal Chance Morgun said: Looks like we need Pale Wolf to chime in with an official ruling on what the proper term should be. Probably why PWB is overworked. I posted the definition. Twice. 1 hour ago, Marshal Chance Morgun said: When I first heard the term used, it was used to describe someone who was trying to get away with something outside the intended rules. Probably because they had a misconception of the word. Or you had a misconception of what they were talking about. As outlined in my example above. 1 hour ago, Marshal Chance Morgun said: My guess would be that it came from the phrase, "gaming the system." Therein lies the problem. Peoples' guessing instead of knowing. 1 hour ago, Marshal Chance Morgun said: Yes, I agree that the most common use for a gamer is someone who gives maximum effort. As applies to us, I agree. 1 hour ago, Marshal Chance Morgun said: The OP asked what the term "gamer" meant as it was used in SASS. Just because you don't like it used like that, doesn't mean that wasn't the intended meaning. No he didn't. You inserted the bold part. He said exactly: we all play this game. So what is a gamer? I am going to throw this out there. We have rules against making belligerent remarks toward other shooters. If you believe gamer has a deragotory meaning, you'd better be careful calling someone a gamer. No difference in your eyes than calling them a cheater, or liar, or something else like that. So, what are you saying about the other "card carrying" members here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evil dogooder Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 4 hours ago, Tennessee williams said: Actually, the truth of the matter is that there IS a definition of the word and it is not derogatory but in fact complementary. It's just that some people don't know the definition of the word. Everything you described defines the word cheater. Just because I don't have a nanner split to eat this morning, let's look at how "gamer" could've become ill-defined in the first place. Shooter runs the heck out of a stage. Mr so and so, knowing the shooter has been practicing, says out loud He is quite the gamer. Mr notso, next to him hears it and has no idea what it means. Instead of asking what Mr so and so means, he draws his own incorrect conclusions and starts using the word gamer incorrectly. For 30-35 years I have known the word gamer to be complementary. Exemplary even. Here is the definition of cheater and gamer: Just like everything in life word definitions change.. gay in common terms used to mean happy. But the general consensus of that word now is not the same. As with other words. It also depends on where you are at. If you want a 7-up here it's a pop. Some places it's a cola. Some a soda. Where you at it may mean a compliment, but that doesn't doesn't mean it will everywhere else I would not call anyone a gamer. Like I said earlier my definition of that person is not someone I would associate with. You looked to one source for the word to back up your stance. Chance pulled from another to support his. As there is no set dictionary for the english language you can't really say one is right and the other is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houston CAS Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 On 1/13/2020 at 8:30 PM, Shooting Bull said: Anyone who plays the game different than the way I think it should be played. (Yes, that was major sarcasm. But that’s actually how the term originated.) This is the correct answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee williams Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 1 hour ago, evil dogooder said: Just like everything in life word definitions change.. gay in common terms used to mean happy. But the general consensus of that word now is not the same. As with other words. It also depends on where you are at. If you want a 7-up here it's a pop. Some places it's a cola. Some a soda. Where you at it may mean a compliment, but that doesn't doesn't mean it will everywhere else I would not call anyone a gamer. Like I said earlier my definition of that person is not someone I would associate with. You looked to one source for the word to back up your stance. Chance pulled from another to support his. As there is no set dictionary for the english language you can't really say one is right and the other is not. Except that one comes from the dictionary. The other comes from supposition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee williams Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 22 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said: GAMER ! You're using your hands. Real head bangers don't use their hands! ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 2 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said: GAMER ! You're using your hands. Real head bangers don't use their hands! ..........Widder Dang, he catches every trick...……….GAMER!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nasty Newt # 7365 Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 12 hours ago, Tennessee williams said: Actually, the truth of the matter is that there IS a definition of the word and it is not derogatory but in fact complementary. It's just that some people don't know the definition of the word. Everything you described defines the word cheater. Just because I don't have a nanner split to eat this morning, let's look at how "gamer" could've become ill-defined in the first place. Shooter runs the heck out of a stage. Mr so and so, knowing the shooter has been practicing, says out loud He is quite the gamer. Mr notso, next to him hears it and has no idea what it means. Instead of asking what Mr so and so means, he draws his own incorrect conclusions and starts using the word gamer incorrectly. For 30-35 years I have known the word gamer to be complementary. Exemplary even. Here is the definition of cheater and gamer: None of those actions described by Evil Dogooder were "cheating" until SASS was forced to pass rules against doing them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild lead Posted January 18, 2020 Author Share Posted January 18, 2020 12 hours ago, Irish Tom said: See what you started Ed? Sorry Tom it's just my nature. Don't get me started on the names that we call you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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