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Null N. Void

Cocked Rifle, SDQ if put down on prop.

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I'm still not sure, based on the thread from last week, that this is settled.  As I understand it from our TG at the match last Saturday, if the rifle is put down and released with the hammer cocked, it's still a SDQ.  The pointing of the rifle downrange and pulling the trigger must occur before the rifle leaves the shooter's hands.  

 

PWB, is this correct?

 

 

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I'm sure PWB will chime in, but I'm pretty sure the ROC is still working on this.

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I know the rule has changed and there is nothing to be gained by beating a dead horse ... but ... I just have to wack that horse one more time. ^_^

 

There is absolutely no problem walking from the loading table to a staging location with a cocked rifle in one hand … (a shotgun is in the other hand) … unless … somehow … just unbelievably somehow the cocked gun turns out to be loaded.

 

Imagine what would go though your mind if that rifle went bang when the trigger was pulled.

 

The rule change allows verification of the (safe) condition of the rifle to "now" occur "after" the shooter is in motion. 

 

The rule change also levies a new responsibility to the TO … to make darn sure they look at every rifle as a shooter approaches the firing line (as it is no longer the responsibility of the shooter). 

 

To and from the loading/unloading tables are times that shooters usually have the least control over their long guns … as there is a long gun in each hand and they are supposed to be trying to keep them pointed in a safe direction … while avoiding brass pickers … spotters .. and other shooters crowding the firing line.

 

Fortunately … we never allow a shooter to proceed to the unloading table with a long gun in questionable condition (there may be a round hiding in there but the action will be open).

 

I don't know the mindset of the person/persons responsible for the drafting of the original rule … BUT …  I always thought the "cocked gun" penalty from the loading table was never about the actual safety of the firearm as much as it was an enforcement of mental attentiveness.

 

Like … "don't come to the line to shoot your firearms unless you are really paying attention to what you are doing. " A redundant layer of safety for everyone.

 

IMHO anyhow …

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Patagonia

I don't know about your TO's but I was taught and all the TO's in our club check for cocked rifles, pistols and does the shooter have enough shotgun rounds on their belt. SO no added duty for the TO.

Ike

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1 minute ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Patagonia

I don't know about your TO's but I was taught and all the TO's in our club check for cocked rifles, pistols and does the shooter have enough shotgun rounds on their belt. SO no added duty for the TO.

Ike

That's good Ike ... When everyone does what they have been taught everytime there is never a problem and you can't ask for a much safer shooting enviroment that that!! Unfortunately ... if that always happened then I suppose they would have never had people leaving the loading table with cocked guns in the first place. 

 

The added duty I was referring to was making the "rifle look" the very "first" thing they should now be doing ... as "NOW" ... per the new rule ... the verification of the condition of the rifle "really" falls to the TO.

 

Noticing one "after" it is laid down would be a bad thing ... especially if it goes "bang". AND ... apparently noticing the condition after it has been staged (left the shooter's hands) may be an issue as that was the original topic of this thread.

 

But ... I agree with you ... TOs would have been checking this all along ... there are no "your" or "my" TOs ...    

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20 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Patagonia

I don't know about your TO's but I was taught and all the TO's in our club check for cocked rifles, pistols and does the shooter have enough shotgun rounds on their belt. SO no added duty for the TO.

Ike

 

Ike,

That's all fine in a perfect world.....but this isn't a perfect world. A SDQ or MDQ should never be on the TO. The TO cannot be in a position to observe the hammer on a rifle 100% of the time. Sometimes the shooter's body, clothing, props, spotters or even the way it is being brought to the line can obscure the TO's view. Assuming the awaited ruling states that setting the rifle down with hammer back results in a SDQ, blaming the TO for the shooter's neglect would be just plain wrong.

 

Seems like more and more people are trying to absolve themselves of personal responsibility. Some idiot decapitates himself in a "self driving" Tesla and they blame the car. Blaming the TO for the shooter receiving a SDQ  or MDQ equates to the same thing.

 

I know that you are not implying that the TO would be blamed. I just want to point out the the shooter has to bear 100% of the responsibility for his/her own actions.

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You missed my point. Shooter is responsible for everything, yes. What I was responding to was the comment that adding looking for a cocked rifle was an additional burden on the TO. Not depending on the TO to notice it, but if they have the opportunity to look then do so "if" they can. SDQ belongs to the shooter and no one else.

Ike

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Just remember that the shooter must still demonstrate that the rifle does not have a round in the chamber BEFORE leaving the firing line.

A round in the chamber will be a MDQ at this point. (Shooter has already staged rifle) It would have only been a SDQ had the shooter not set it down.

 

 

Edited by Ace_of_Hearts
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8 hours ago, Null N. Void said:

I'm still not sure, based on the thread from last week, that this is settled.  As I understand it from our TG at the match last Saturday, if the rifle is put down and released with the hammer cocked, it's still a SDQ.  The pointing of the rifle downrange and pulling the trigger must occur before the rifle leaves the shooter's hands.  

 

PWB, is this correct?

 

 

Here come all the complications. 

I never liked the rule change.  It violates the basic training principle of treating every gun as if it is loaded.   With the only "safetys" being the hammer position and muzzle direction, moving with an empty cocked rifle shouldn't be treated any differently to moving with a cocked and loaded rifle.   Muzzle direction can change quite easily if shooter falls or acts negligently.  

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale
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I'll be posting, pinning, (and locking) the applications of current rules related to a few more likely scenarios.

The ONLY change to the rules was elimination of the automatic SDQ for stepping away from the LT with a cocked rifle with no round chambered.

...and the method of determining whether there is an unfired round under a cocked hammer or not.

 

The ROC is discussing a few minor issues in regard to staging/starting with a cocked rifle w/no round chambered.

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1 hour ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

I'll be posting, pinning, (and locking) the applications of current rules related to a few more likely scenarios.

The ONLY change to the rules was elimination of the automatic SDQ for stepping away from the LT with a cocked rifle with no round chambered.

...and the method of determining whether there is an unfired round under a cocked hammer or not.

 

The ROC is discussing a few minor issues in regard to staging/starting with a cocked rifle w/no round chambered.

Hopefully ROC will clarify if there are two SDQs when the cocked gun is released from the shooter's hand (staged) and turns out to be loaded.  One for leaving the LT and moving with a cocked and loaded rifle, and a second for the cocked, loaded rifle leaving the shooter's hand.  Will both be applied =MDQ? 

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14 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Hopefully ROC will clarify if there are two SDQs when the cocked gun is released from the shooter's hand (staged) and turns out to be loaded.  One for leaving the LT and moving with a cocked and loaded rifle, and a second for the cocked, loaded rifle leaving the shooter's hand.  Will both be applied =MDQ? 

 

And if the shooter should drop the rifle we will add a hanging onto the Match Disqualification.

Hanging to be at HIGH NOON on the 13th of the month!

:)

 

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Did I understand this correctly? Leaving the LT with a cocked rifle with a LIVE round in the chamber is ONLY a SDQ??? Not at our club.

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1 hour ago, Bad Company, SASS #20195 said:

Did I understand this correctly? Leaving the LT with a cocked rifle with a LIVE round in the chamber is ONLY a SDQ??? Not at our club.

 

That has been a SASS rule for a very long time.

That has NOT CHANGED.

 

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Can I ask when this became a "thing"? It just seems to me to be a  fair amount of hoopla about something that shouldn't be.

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PWB:  Is this the rule:  Staging or discarding a long gun containing a live round in the chamber (once it leaves the shooter’s hands).  Shooter's Handbook

It does not say: With the hammer cocked.    

How unsafe can you possibly be coming to the line with a live round in the chamber and the hammer cocked?

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15 minutes ago, Bad Company, SASS #20195 said:

PWB:  Is this the rule:  Staging or discarding a long gun containing a live round in the chamber (once it leaves the shooter’s hands).  Shooter's Handbook

It does not say: With the hammer cocked.    

How unsafe can you possibly be coming to the line with a live round in the chamber and the hammer cocked?

 

It doesn't matter if the rifle is cocked or not if it leaves the shooter's hands with a round in the chamber ... SDQ

If a shooter comes to the line with a live round in the chamber of a rifle (cocked or not), THAT is also a SDQ.

Two SDQs = MDQ

Those are both pre-existing rules that have been in place for a very long time...the rule change only applies to moving from the LT with a cocked rifle with no round in the chamber.
 

 

 

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Sometimes this new "rule" is easier to understand if you think of it as an EXCEPTION to existing rules.

 

It gives you a get out of jail free card (get out of SDQ card in this case) when MOVING to the firing line from the loading table with the rifle.

The card cannot be used on any other penalty. Such as a cocked and closed rifle leaving the shooters hand.

You cannot use this card for shotguns.

You cannot use this card for pistols.

 

 

 

Edited by Ace_of_Hearts

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20 minutes ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

Sometimes this new "rule" is easier to understand if you think of it as an EXCEPTION to existing rules.

 

It gives you a get out of jail free card (get out of SDQ card in this case) when MOVING to the firing line from the loading table with the rifle.

The card cannot be used on any other penalty. Such as a cocked and closed rifle leaving the shooters hand.

You cannot use this card for shotguns.

You cannot use this card for pistols.

 

That is how it is stated in the "Penalties Overview":

Quote

- Changing location with a long gun with the action closed and the hammer cocked (exception for rifle from the loading table to the stage with no round chambered)

SHB p.23 

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On 1/13/2020 at 8:34 AM, Null N. Void said:

I'm still not sure, based on the thread from last week, that this is settled.  As I understand it from our TG at the match last Saturday, if the rifle is put down and released with the hammer cocked, it's still a SDQ.  The pointing of the rifle downrange and pulling the trigger must occur before the rifle leaves the shooter's hands.  

 

PWB, is this correct?

 

 

I've read thru responses and still somewhat confused as to my initial understanding of how "the new rule" would be handled.  It seems it is not as I suspected throughout its debate..

 

So lets say  shooter comes to line with shotgun in one hand and cocked (half or full) lever gun in other hand (unnoticed by anyone), when rifle is set down in order to go stage shotgun,  SDQ occurs immediately?  I had thought once noticed by TO, which could be as shooter releases rifle to table, THEN TO could instruct shooter to do "pull trigger drill" and at this point SDQ (produced by discharge) or No Call is awarded. 

 

I have a habit installed in what "fundamental" thinking ability that I still maintain to place thumb in front of hammer then pull trigger when laying rifle down  on loading table. This assures that hammer is down (although I have the step removed from hammer anyway).  If one does not have such a habit, perhaps they should develop an alternate habit to stage shotgun first when possible.  Personally, to assure of never having a half cock incident, remove the half cock step on hammer (DIY or by smith).

 

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I don't understand this "clarification" at all. It really appears that this is an end run by the ROC to circumvent a vote that they aren't happy with and give the TG's that voted 75% for the change a giant middle finger. I hope I am wrong in that assessment, but I really don't see how there could be any other way to interpret what the vote was intended to mean. If my assessment is correct, then the ROC really should be ashamed of themselves. They are taking on the part of those "activist judges" that decide they don't agree with a law congress has passed and choose interpret it differently. I have heard from some TG's that are extremely ticked off by this. So much so that I wouldn't be surprised if the the next vote is to dissolve the ROC permanently or have the current members replaced. I doubt that would get very far because as we all know SASS only pretends to be a democracy when in fact it is still being run by a select few. 

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2 hours ago, Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator said:

So lets say  shooter comes to line with shotgun in one hand and cocked (half or full) lever gun in other hand (unnoticed by anyone), when rifle is set down in order to go stage shotgun,  SDQ occurs immediately? 

 

Yes.

 

Quote

2) Shooter stages cocked rifle with empty chamber.

 

 

SDQ for staging the rifle with the hammer cocked (as soon as it leaves the shooter’s hands).

 

 

No additional penalty for "changing location" (moving from the LT) under the rule change.

 

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25 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

Yes.

 

 

Reluctantly,  I got it. Generally speaking, nothing has changed after lengthy discussion and voting.  Now TO needs to focus more on rifle while in motion in staging before it leaves hands of shooter if to assist the shooter from getting a SDQ. :(

I, personally, was hoping new rule would be an aid in teaching new shooters without SDQ, possibly with NC or MSV at most. 

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2 minutes ago, Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator said:

Reluctantly,  I got it. Generally speaking, nothing has changed after lengthy discussion and voting.  Now TO needs to focus more on rifle while in motion in staging before it leaves hands of shooter if to assist the shooter from getting a SDQ. :(

I, personally, was hoping new rule would be an aid in teaching new shooters without SDQ, possibly with NC or MSV at most. 

 

And I am sure that we all can point to TOs that take a laissez faire approach to running the timer.

 

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Speaking for myself and no others, I can't understand how a rifle transported to the line with the hammer cocked, previously a "unsafe" manner, is now somehow safe as long as the shooter is holding it but becomes unsafe (once again) with no one touching it. The logic just defies reason.

 

 

 

 

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Quote

- As long as the shooter has contact with the firearm, it is considered in their control. 

SHB p.17 - Safety & Handling Conventions – All Firearms 

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1 hour ago, Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator said:

Reluctantly,  I got it. Generally speaking, nothing has changed after lengthy discussion and voting.  Now TO needs to focus more on rifle while in motion in staging before it leaves hands of shooter if to assist the shooter from getting a SDQ. :(

I, personally, was hoping new rule would be an aid in teaching new shooters without SDQ, possibly with NC or MSV at most. 

 

SHOOTERS need to pay attention at the loading table to ensure that their firearms and equipment are in compliance with "safe for movement/staging" regulations.
The ultimate responsibility (LTO or not) rests upon the SHOOTER.
Violations of the rules are subject to penalties.

 

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
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2 hours ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

I don't understand this "clarification" at all. It really appears that this is an end run by the ROC to circumvent a vote that they aren't happy with and give the TG's that voted 75% for the change a giant middle finger. I hope I am wrong in that assessment, but I really don't see how there could be any other way to interpret what the vote was intended to mean. If my assessment is correct, then the ROC really should be ashamed of themselves. They are taking on the part of those "activist judges" that decide they don't agree with a law congress has passed and choose interpret it differently. I have heard from some TG's that are extremely ticked off by this. So much so that I wouldn't be surprised if the the next vote is to dissolve the ROC permanently or have the current members replaced. I doubt that would get very far because as we all know SASS only pretends to be a democracy when in fact it is still being run by a select few. 

 

An "end run" by the ROC would be to petition the WB to nullify the TG vote and simply assess the SDQ for "failure to adhere to loading and unloading procedures"
(which, in retrospect, is how the "leaving the LT with a cocked firearm" should have been handled long ago when the ROC at that time voted on the issue)...IMO

 

The combined WB/ROC approved the voting item "as written"...which was ONLY to remove the automatic SDQ for stepping away from the LT with a cocked rifle with no round in the chamber (and the method used to determine whether the chamber was loaded or not).

 

I would suggest a more thorough reading of the "SASS Wire Guidelines" the next time you decide to post an uninformed "opinion".
 

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
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