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Red Rider Rudy

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Shooter only shots Nine out of rifle, lays rifle down and tenth round rolls out of the rifle.  We had this happen at our last match. They gave the shooter a minor safety.  Should it have been a no call as it wasn't still in the rifle?

There was talk later on about what the call should be?   Just want to know what is the right call, if this happens again.

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Round came out of rifle due to action by the shooter (laying gun down).  Rifle is no longer loaded at the time it could be inspected.  That part I would give a "no call" .

 

But remember to call the "round not fired counted as a miss."

 

So, 5 seconds for round not fired.

 

Good luck, GJ

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4 minutes ago, Black Angus McPherson said:

I'll probably regret jumping in on this (I did last time I offered an opinion on a WTC), but isn't there a procedural for failure to engage the 10th target? 

NO

Or does that fall in somewhere where a miss can't cause a procedural?

 

Angus

 

YES.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Red Rider Rudy said:

Shooter only shots Nine out of rifle, lays rifle down and tenth round rolls out of the rifle.  We had this happen at our last match. They gave the shooter a minor safety.  Should it have been a no call as it wasn't still in the rifle?

There was talk later on about what the call should be?   Just want to know what is the right call, if this happens again.

Was the condition corrected before the next gun was handled/fired? 

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13 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Was the condition corrected before the next gun was handled/fired? 

 

Quote

...lays rifle down and tenth round rolls out of the rifle

 

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32 minutes ago, BootStrap Phil said:

Where does this Urban Legend come from about if you do not engage 10th target it is a Procedural? I see this a lot throughout the CAS world.

 

 

 

Truthfully, we don't have enough information in the OP to know if a Procedural was warranted or not.  The shooter could have very well earned a P as well, we just don't have enough info.

 

For instance....imagine there are 5 targets...shooter is to sweep the 5 targets twice in the same direction starting on either end.

 

If the shooter put the ninth round on the end target and put the rifle down, there is a P in there somewhere as you could not end the string on an end target after only engaging 9 rounds in this scenario.

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Could he have picked it back up and loaded another round and fired it as long as he did not fire the next firearm?  Would this be treated the same as jacking a round out.  

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9 minutes ago, Kirk James said:

Could he have picked it back up and loaded another round and fired it as long as he did not fire the next firearm?  Would this be treated the same as jacking a round out.  

 

He could grab another round off his person. He could have also picked up the round that rolled out and use that, too. Either way.

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19 minutes ago, Kirk James said:

Could he have picked it back up and loaded another round and fired it as long as he did not fire the next firearm?  Would this be treated the same as jacking a round out.  

To avoid anyone arguing we don't know if the shooter earned any other penalties...

Im assuming:

The first nine rifle rounds struck targets in the correct order.

They didn't deserve a spirit of the game penalty.

They didn't sweep anyone.

They brought everything to the line in an approved manner.

 

So, assuming all of the above...

 

YES

Even if the round had remained in the rifle - the shooter has until firing the next gun to correct without penalty.

 

If the round remains in the discarded rifle and situation is not corrected before next firearm:

Minor Safety

Miss for unfired round.

 

If (as in op) round clears self from discarded rifle and situation is not corrected before next firearm:

Miss for unfired round.

 

If the round remains in the discarded rifle and shooter shoots next firearm - then returns to rifle to clear it by unloading:

Minor safety

Miss for unfired round

 

If the round remains in the discarded rifle and shooter shoots next firearm - then returns to the rifle to clear it by firing:

Minor safety

Procedural

Hit/ Miss result of fired round (as applies)

 

If (as in op) round clears self from discarded rifle - shooter fires next firearm - then returns to rifle - reloads and fires round:

Procedural

Hit/ Miss result of fired round.

 

Etc, etc, etc.

 

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6 hours ago, BootStrap Phil said:

Where does this Urban Legend come from about if you do not engage 10th target it is a Procedural? I see this a lot throughout the CAS world.

 

 

This might come from shooters who compete in other action shooting sports and apply rules from these sports to CAS.  From the 2019 USPSA Competition Rules, item 9.5.7 on page 56, " A competitor who fails to shoot at the face of each scoring target in a course of fire with at least one round will incur one procedural penalty per target for failure to shoot at the target, as well as appropriate penalties for misses (see Rule 10.2.7). "

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7 hours ago, BootStrap Phil said:

Where does this Urban Legend come from about if you do not engage 10th target it is a Procedural? I see this a lot throughout the CAS world.

 

 

 

Because it just seems natural that there should be a penalty for not engaging a target, barring the accidental ejection of a live round.  This is just one example of why I'm not a RO.  Give me a miss, a Procedural, Minor or Major Safety, SDQ or MDQ.  Whatever, I won't argue the call.  I'm just here to have fun.

 

FWIW, I don't consider a misfire or broken gun a failure to engage.  Aim + pull trigger = engaged whether or not the cartridge fires.

 

Angus

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1 hour ago, Black Angus McPherson said:

 

Because it just seems natural that there should be a penalty for not engaging a target, barring the accidental ejection of a live round.  This is just one example of why I'm not a RO.  Give me a miss, a Procedural, Minor or Major Safety, SDQ or MDQ.  Whatever, I won't argue the call.  I'm just here to have fun.

 

FWIW, I don't consider a misfire or broken gun a failure to engage.  Aim + pull trigger = engaged whether or not the cartridge fires.

 

Angus

Just for your information. 

If you do not attempt to fire the gun at all, then there will be a procedural penalty for that. 

 

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18 minutes ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

I’m confused. How does a round “fall out”?

With Marlins and Henry Big Boys it is easy.

 

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12 hours ago, Cowboy Junky said:

Since the OP didn't ask about a P you would sure think that wasn't an issue. 

No P, he shot everything right. Sad part no one noticed he only shot nine till he was done and came back for the rifle. That's when they seen the tenth round laying on the table.

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36 minutes ago, Red Rider Rudy said:

No P, he shot everything right. Sad part no one noticed he only shot nine till he was done and came back for the rifle.

 

What did the rifle string look like? I am just wondering how anybody can say that he shot everything right (no P) when one shot was missing?

 

Equanimous

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2 minutes ago, Equanimous Phil said:

 

What did the rifle string look like? I am just wondering how anybody can say that he shot everything right (no P) when one shot was missing?

 

Equanimous

Like other post, spotters not doing a good job? 

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2 minutes ago, Red Rider Rudy said:

spotters not doing a good job? 

 

Maybe. But some more thoughts:

 

Does that round on the table need to be the 10th round?

He could have loaded 11. If he jacks out this 11th round or in this case the round falls out it's a no call (also no miss).

Or the round dropped from his belt.

Or....

 

And regarding the miss: Even if he really shot just nine shots, nobody counted just nine shots. The rifle was cleared (or cleared itself) before the next firearm was shot. So, I would suggest no call, not even a miss (in dubio pro reo)

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20 hours ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

Just for your information. 

If you do not attempt to fire the gun at all, then there will be a procedural penalty for that. 

 

 

According to Palewolf, in his above post, that is not correct.  If I read the OP correctly there was no attempt to fire the 10th round.   The round just fell out of the gun when placed on the table.  

 

I don't understand the reasoning, but I bow to Palewolf's knowledge and expertise in the matter.

 

Of course it's also possible that I may have missed something in the OP or Palewolf's ruling.

 

Angus

 

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1 hour ago, Black Angus McPherson said:

 

According to Palewolf, in his above post, that is not correct.  If I read the OP correctly there was no attempt to fire the 10th round.   The round just fell out of the gun when placed on the table.  

 

I don't understand the reasoning, but I bow to Palewolf's knowledge and expertise in the matter.

 

Of course it's also possible that I may have missed something in the OP or Palewolf's ruling.

 

Angus

 

 

I think you are confusing failure to fire a round, and failure to attempt to fire a firearm.

 

He shot 9 of the required 10 rounds, therefore, he successfully attempted to fire a firearm.

 

SHB pg 22

Quote

Procedural (P) infractions include:
- Failure to attempt to fire a firearm, engage a prop, or perform a stage maneuver.

 

If he only shot pistols and shotgun and said, ah, shucks, I don't want to shoot my rifle now, that would give him 10 misses and a P for failure to fire a firearm.

 

If he shoots pistol and then he picks up his rifle, attempts to chamber that first round, and realizes that there is a split case jamming the action that he cannot fix, he throws it down declaring a malfunction. That is just 10 misses. He attempted to fire it, it just didn't work!

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7 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

I think you are confusing failure to fire a round, and failure to attempt to fire a firearm.

 

He shot 9 of the required 10 rounds, therefore, he successfully attempted to fire a firearm.

 

SHB pg 22

 

 

7 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

If he only shot pistols and shotgun and said, ah, shucks, I don't want to shoot my rifle now, that would give him 10 misses and a P for failure to fire a firearm.

If the rifle was last, wouldn't that be scored as a dnf?

7 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

If he shoots pistol and then he picks up his rifle, attempts to chamber that first round, and realizes that there is a split case jamming the action that he cannot fix, he throws it down declaring a malfunction. That is just 10 misses. He attempted to fire it, it just didn't work!

 

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14 hours ago, Red Rider Rudy said:

No P, he shot everything right. Sad part no one noticed he only shot nine till he was done and came back for the rifle. That's when they seen the tenth round laying on the table.

   That kind of changes things for me. Why was he awarded a miss? You say he shot it in the correct order and no body seen the miss, only the bullet laying on the table. Awarding them a miss or any other penalty in my opinion is just plain not right. 

   I often leave unfired rounds laying around all over the place. But, I didn't miss anything.

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This post reinforces an important role of the Timer Operator.   COUNT the shooter's rounds fired.   Watch for ejected live rounds from long guns.    You MUST be able to both assist the shooter with "One More" calls during the stage and before they move on to the next firearm, or to call a "Round Not Fired" condition if the shooter can't fire all required rounds.    And the faster the shooter, the more important this part of your job as TO becomes, because they are the most likely to be flinging out unfired rounds.

 

Good luck, GJ

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11 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

   That kind of changes things for me. Why was he awarded a miss? You say he shot it in the correct order and no body seen the miss, only the bullet laying on the table. Awarding them a miss or any other penalty in my opinion is just plain not right. 

   I often leave unfired rounds laying around all over the place. But, I didn't miss anything.

The original post clearly states that the shooter only fired nine rounds.................

 

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5 hours ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

The original post clearly states that the shooter only fired nine rounds.................

 

Ace ole buddy, did you read what I had quoted at all before you responded? The original poster himself came back with more info that I quoted and said the shooter shot everything right and NOBODY KNEW he only fired 9 until he came back for the rifle and seen a bullet on the table. They didn't see a miss.

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It's a miss for the unfired round. 5-SECOND PENALTIES Misses are 5-Second penalties.  Revolver, rifle, and shotgun targets must be engaged with the appropriate type of firearm.  A MISS is defined as the failure to hit the appropriate target type using the appropriate type of firearm and includes: - Each missed target. - Each unfired round. 

 How bout this; shooter hits all the rifle targets in the correct order  "with his pistols". A P 10 seconds?? two Ps?? Nope no P, just 10 misses, one for each missed pistol target.;) But what if he cleans the pistol targets "with his rifle".....a P?? Nope, 10 more misses for failure to hit the appropriate type target.:( Good Luck:)

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30 minutes ago, Jefro, SASS#69420 said:

It's a miss for the unfired round. 5-SECOND PENALTIES Misses are 5-Second penalties.  Revolver, rifle, and shotgun targets must be engaged with the appropriate type of firearm.  A MISS is defined as the failure to hit the appropriate target type using the appropriate type of firearm and includes: - Each missed target. - Each unfired round. 

 How bout this; shooter hits all the rifle targets in the correct order  "with his pistols". A P 10 seconds?? two Ps?? Nope no P, just 10 misses, one for each missed pistol target.;) But what if he cleans the pistol targets "with his rifle".....a P?? Nope, 10 more misses for failure to hit the appropriate type target.:( Good Luck:)

I know an unfired round is scored as a miss but Y'all are missing the point. The Original Poster came back and said the shooter fired everything in the correct order without any actual misses. He then says it was only after the shooter came back for the rifle that they noticed a live round on the table. What everybody is ASSUMING is the round came from the rifle. In fact it could've came from his reloading strip, his hat, or even someone else putting it on the table. To give the shooter a penalty for a round setting on the table is in my opinion wrong.

Correct order was hit. Nobody seen a miss or unfired round. This isn't like getting to the unloading table and finding an unfired round still in a revolver. You don't know it came from the rifle ESPECIALLY if nobody seen a miss or a jacked out round. Time to swap some spotters, not arbitrarily assign a miss to a shooter. In all fairness, that was a tidbit of info the OP should have included.

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I agree TN.

 

I understood the point you were trying to make and why you were saying 'No Miss'.

 

Heck, an unfired round could fall off of my belt onto the table where I fired the rifle.   I would hate for

all 3 spotters to declare 10 shots, 10 hits..... and then somebody want to give me a miss because of an

unfired round laying on the table.

 

EDIT:  but I would give YOU a miss just so you could get on the Wire about it..... :lol:;)

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

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