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Trooper Ozzy

WTC Dropping first Shotgun shell in 97 open chamber

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Open empty 97 shotgun staged on table, chamber up.

 

After shooting rifle or pistol sequence, pulling shells from belt, dropping one into open chamber then picking up with right hand and proceeding to cycle and shoot.

 

One observation was a loaded shotgun was then left on table, although for a fraction of a second, before right or left hand was in control of the shotgun.

 

Rule problem?

 

Option 1 was to grasp with right hand first and drop shell with left, then shoulder and fire.

Option 2 was to slide right hand back in contact with gun after dropping shell into chamber, then shoulder and fire.

 

Or are we overthinking with too many RO's on the stage looking in.

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'97 action was open during the transfer?

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WAY OVER thinking.  NO call.  Unless folks are just drooling over the opportunity to penalize someone for something of no consequence.

 

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Posted (edited)

He dropped the round in the action/carrier - not in the chamber.

 

As long as the action is cleared before the next gun fired...No Call...

Edited by Branchwater Jack SASS #88854
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29 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

WAY OVER thinking.  NO call.  Unless folks are just drooling over the opportunity to penalize someone for something of no consequence.

 

^^^^^This!!!

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Posted (edited)

I've seen this done (when I first started shooting in GA back in 2005) by some who would pick shells from the belt with both hands.

Jasmine Jessie (aka Jessie Harrison and our MD's daughter) could pull 6 shells from her belt and proceed to load and fire without ever having to go back to her belt. Amazing! Yeah, she went on to be a world class action shooter for Glock and Taurus.

Edited by The Rainmaker, SASS #11631

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6 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

He dropped the round in the action/carrier - not in the chamber.

 

As long as the action is cleared before the next gun fired...No Call...

   While I agree this is probably WAAY over thinking it, I do see why the question was posed. So now in typical fashion, I will play devils' advocate. 

    The way it is described in the OP, the shotgun has a shell in it while it is not in any contact with the shooter. Shotguns have to be staged open and empty unless dictated otherwise by the stage instructions. TECHNICALLY, the shotgun is still in the staged position until it is in contact with the shooter at which point it THEN becomes in hand. There is no definition of the in between state or amount of time the shell is in the shotgun before it is picked up and used. Meaning it shouldn't matter whether the shooter drops a shell into the shotgun and then picks it up to use it vs dropping a shell in and stopping to say the pledge of allegiance before he or she picks it up to use it. Both cases have a shotgun that is staged open but NOT empty. Though one situation is only for a half a second, does that make it excusable?

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Posted (edited)

@Tennessee williams You can pick a 97 up, drop 1 on the carrier, set it down on the table and pull up your pants, scratch your nose and do the hokey pokey, but it is still a no call, as long as the round is not in the chamber and is cleared before the first round is fired from a gun that is not the shotgun which you just loaded the round into, it is still a no call.

 

the MS Penalty is

 

SHB pg 42

Quote

Empty or live round in magazine or carrier of the long gun in which it was loaded after the next firearm is fired, or
if last firearm, put down on the unloading table.

 

SDQ Penalty

 

SHB pg 42

Quote

Discarding a long gun containing a live round in the chamber (once it leaves the shooter’s hands)

 

Edited by Branchwater Jack SASS #88854
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This could be fun!!!

Two shooting positions left and right with tables.

10-10-3+

Firearm order pistol rifle shotgun

Starting at left with pistols.

Then move to right for long guns.

after shooter finishes pistols moves to right, taking shot shell out of belt with left hand

Arrives at table, with left hand drops shell in 97 carrier with right hand picks up rifle

Finishes rifle then proceeds to pick up shotgun with shell in carrier and two more shells in hand(s)

 

 

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1 minute ago, wyliefoxEsquire said:

This could be fun!!!

Two shooting positions left and right with tables.

10-10-3+

Firearm order pistol rifle shotgun

Starting at left with pistols.

Then move to right for long guns.

after shooter finishes pistols moves to right, taking shot shell out of belt with left hand

Arrives at table, with left hand drops shell in 97 carrier with right hand picks up rifle

Finishes rifle then proceeds to pick up shotgun with shell in carrier and two more shells in hand(s)

 

 

 

Minor Safety

 

SHB pg 42

  Quote

Empty or live round in magazine or carrier of the long gun in which it was loaded after the next firearm is fired, or
if last firearm, put down on the unloading table.

 

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so much for FUN!!!

That was way too fast of a reply.

But obvious.

 

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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

@Tennessee williams You can pick a 97 up, drop 1 on the carrier, set it down on the table and pull up your pants, scratch your nose and do the hokey pokey, but it is still a no call, as long as the round is not in the chamber and is cleared before the first round is fired from a gun that is not the shotgun which you just loaded the round into, it is still a no call.

 

the MS Penalty is

 

SHB pg 42

 

SDQ Penalty

 

SHB pg 42

 

 

40 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

@Tennessee williams You can pick a 97 up, drop 1 on the carrier, set it down on the table and pull up your pants, scratch your nose and do the hokey pokey, but it is still a no call, as long as the round is not in the chamber and is cleared before the first round is fired from a gun that is not the shotgun which you just loaded the round into, it is still a no call.

 

the MS Penalty is

 

SHB pg 42

 

SDQ Penalty

 

SHB pg 42

 

I'm not advocating for a MS penalty. I wouldn't even call it. HOWEVER. What is the penalty for an improper staged firearm? A P? What position is the shotgun in when it is not in contact with the shooter? There are only 4 positions I know of for long guns. Staged. Restaged. Restaged for further use. And in hand. In hand is defined as in contact with the shooter so it is not that. There are no defined terms for a shotgun to be restaged for further use, only the rifle(that I know of). That only leaves staged. It says a shotgun can only be staged open and empty. Should there be a caveat for this? Or is there another defined term for a long gun besides "in hand" and "staged"?

Edited by Tennessee williams

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YA KNOW, If folks will just dream up every dumb scenario they can imagine, we can probably get this NO CALL all the way out to 3 or 4 pages.  Without actually saying anything worthwhile.  Betcha

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1 minute ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

YA KNOW, If folks will just dream up every dumb scenario they can imagine, we can probably get this NO CALL all the way out to 3 or 4 pages.  Without actually saying anything worthwhile.  Betcha

Or better yet people could make general comments that add nothing to the conversation. Betcha that would work too!

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

 

I'm not advocating for a MS penalty. I wouldn't even call it. HOWEVER. What is the penalty for an improper staged firearm? A P? What position is the shotgun in when it is not in contact with the shooter? There are only 4 positions I know of for long guns. Staged. Restaged. Restaged for further use. And in hand. In hand is defined as in contact with the shooter so it is not that. There are no defined terms for a shotgun to be restaged for further use, only the rifle(that I know of). That only leaves staged. It says a shotgun can only be staged open and empty. Should there be a caveat for this? Or is there another defined term for a long gun besides "in hand" and "staged"?

I think in that context staged is a verb, not a noun. That’s why the correct way to describe it is ‘improperly staged.’ Not improper staged.

 

The shotgun was properly staged, before the shooter commenced the course of fire. The rule Jack quoted clearly allows for a shotgun having a shell in the action, while not in hand, during a specific period.

Edited by Captain Bill Burt
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@Tennessee williams

 

SHB of 16

 

Quote

Shotguns  are  always  staged  open  and  empty  and  are  loaded  on  the  clock  unless the  stage  begins  with  the  shotgun  in  the  shooter’s  hands. 

 

Was the shotgun staged open  and  empty?

 

Was it loaded  on  the  clock?

 

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3 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I think in that context staged is a verb, not a noun. That’s why the correct way describe it is ‘improperly staged.’ Not improper staged.

Don't you have a nanner split to go eat? Oh wait, that's me!

I yield to the fact I should have used improperly but not that the word staged is a verb. It is in fact an adjective.

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Don't you have a nanner split to go eat? Oh wait, that's me!

I yield to the fact I should have used improperly but not that the word staged is a verb. It is in fact an adjective.

Lol! You sure it’s not an adverb?  A nanner split would be good right about now.

Edited by Captain Bill Burt

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30 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

There are only 4 positions I know of for long guns. Staged. Restaged. Restaged for further use. And in hand. In hand is defined as in contact with the shooter so it is not that. There are no defined terms for a shotgun to be restaged for further use, only the rifle(that I know of). 

 

There is no definition for a long gun in hand. Only revolver.

 

SHB pg 45

 

Quote

Revolver  in  hand  –  when  the  muzzle  of  the  revolver  clears  the  mouth  of  the  holster,  or breaks  contact  with  a  prop  where  it  was  staged.  

 

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1 minute ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Lol! You sure it’s not an adverb?  A nanner split would be good right about now.

I am positive it's an adjective. Lol, I had to check to make sure before I posted it. Hahaha!

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4 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

There is no definition for a long gun in hand. Only revolver.

 

SHB pg 45

 

 

There was a clarification a while back about what the definition of in hand was for a long gun. I can't find it but it was "in contact". I've been wrong before. @PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L was there such a clarification in one of our debates?

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I think that was something to the effect of a gun being considered ‘under the shooter’s control’ as long as there was contact.

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Just now, Captain Bill Burt said:

I think that was something to the effect of a gun being considered ‘under the shooter’s control’ as long as there was 

I think you're right about that, but I remember a pretty good debate where in hand was used too.

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While we’re branching out I would also like to know the meaning of life and how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. PWB?

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42

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10 hours ago, Trooper Ozzy said:

Open empty 97 shotgun staged on table, chamber up.

 

After shooting rifle or pistol sequence, pulling shells from belt, dropping one into open chamber then picking up with right hand and proceeding to cycle and shoot.

 

One observation was a loaded shotgun was then left on table, although for a fraction of a second, before right or left hand was in control of the shotgun.

 

Rule problem?

 

Option 1 was to grasp with right hand first and drop shell with left, then shoulder and fire.

Option 2 was to slide right hand back in contact with gun after dropping shell into chamber, then shoulder and fire.

 

Or are we overthinking with too many RO's on the stage looking in.

 

Have you attended any SASS, RO classes? 

OLG 

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So we have one side saying it "should" be a penalty and the other side saying it is obviously a no call.

 

When like most things - it is somewhere between the two points.

 

So; look at the incident in a linear fashion...

Firearm is staged open and empty.

Hunky dory - No call at this moment.

 

Firearm has a round placed on the carrier while firearm is not in hand.

Minor safety is earned - right then.

 

Firearm is then cleared, prior to another firearm being discharged.

Minor safety is negated/ removed right then.

 

So YES; a penalty is warranted for the round on the carrier of a long gun; not in hand.  The penalty was earned the instant the round entered the firearm.

 

But if this penalty is retained is 100% based on the shooters actions AFTER the penalty is earned.

 

If the firearm is cleared, before the next gun is discharged - the penalty is removed.

 

This soothes the, "it has be a penalty" side by assigning the deserved penalty and satisfies the "no call" side by immediately negating that same penalty.

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Now that this thread has reached "nanner split" status, PLEASE scroll up and reread @Branchwater Jack SASS #88854's responses.

I appreciate his getting to this while I was on a run to the plantation (medical transport mission). 

:ph34r:

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I dont quite know what to say, but I do like nanner splits meownself.

 

Imis

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Thanks for all the answers boys. 

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22 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

WAY OVER thinking.  NO call.  Unless folks are just drooling over the opportunity to penalize someone for something of no consequence.

 

 

14 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

YA KNOW, If folks will just dream up every dumb scenario they can imagine, we can probably get this NO CALL all the way out to 3 or 4 pages.  Without actually saying anything worthwhile.  Betcha

+ 1000000 to Coffinmaker!!:)

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