Trooper Ozzy Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 Open empty 97 shotgun staged on table, chamber up. After shooting rifle or pistol sequence, pulling shells from belt, dropping one into open chamber then picking up with right hand and proceeding to cycle and shoot. One observation was a loaded shotgun was then left on table, although for a fraction of a second, before right or left hand was in control of the shotgun. Rule problem? Option 1 was to grasp with right hand first and drop shell with left, then shoulder and fire. Option 2 was to slide right hand back in contact with gun after dropping shell into chamber, then shoulder and fire. Or are we overthinking with too many RO's on the stage looking in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Duncan Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 '97 action was open during the transfer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 WAY OVER thinking. NO call. Unless folks are just drooling over the opportunity to penalize someone for something of no consequence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 He dropped the round in the action/carrier - not in the chamber. As long as the action is cleared before the next gun fired...No Call... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yul Lose Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 29 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said: WAY OVER thinking. NO call. Unless folks are just drooling over the opportunity to penalize someone for something of no consequence. ^^^^^This!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 I've seen this done (when I first started shooting in GA back in 2005) by some who would pick shells from the belt with both hands. Jasmine Jessie (aka Jessie Harrison and our MD's daughter) could pull 6 shells from her belt and proceed to load and fire without ever having to go back to her belt. Amazing! Yeah, she went on to be a world class action shooter for Glock and Taurus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 as Palewolf calls this: use RO III instructions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee williams Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 6 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said: He dropped the round in the action/carrier - not in the chamber. As long as the action is cleared before the next gun fired...No Call... While I agree this is probably WAAY over thinking it, I do see why the question was posed. So now in typical fashion, I will play devils' advocate. The way it is described in the OP, the shotgun has a shell in it while it is not in any contact with the shooter. Shotguns have to be staged open and empty unless dictated otherwise by the stage instructions. TECHNICALLY, the shotgun is still in the staged position until it is in contact with the shooter at which point it THEN becomes in hand. There is no definition of the in between state or amount of time the shell is in the shotgun before it is picked up and used. Meaning it shouldn't matter whether the shooter drops a shell into the shotgun and then picks it up to use it vs dropping a shell in and stopping to say the pledge of allegiance before he or she picks it up to use it. Both cases have a shotgun that is staged open but NOT empty. Though one situation is only for a half a second, does that make it excusable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 @Tennessee williams You can pick a 97 up, drop 1 on the carrier, set it down on the table and pull up your pants, scratch your nose and do the hokey pokey, but it is still a no call, as long as the round is not in the chamber and is cleared before the first round is fired from a gun that is not the shotgun which you just loaded the round into, it is still a no call. the MS Penalty is SHB pg 42 Quote Empty or live round in magazine or carrier of the long gun in which it was loaded after the next firearm is fired, or if last firearm, put down on the unloading table. SDQ Penalty SHB pg 42 Quote Discarding a long gun containing a live round in the chamber (once it leaves the shooter’s hands) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyliefoxEsquire Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 This could be fun!!! Two shooting positions left and right with tables. 10-10-3+ Firearm order pistol rifle shotgun Starting at left with pistols. Then move to right for long guns. after shooter finishes pistols moves to right, taking shot shell out of belt with left hand Arrives at table, with left hand drops shell in 97 carrier with right hand picks up rifle Finishes rifle then proceeds to pick up shotgun with shell in carrier and two more shells in hand(s) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 1 minute ago, wyliefoxEsquire said: This could be fun!!! Two shooting positions left and right with tables. 10-10-3+ Firearm order pistol rifle shotgun Starting at left with pistols. Then move to right for long guns. after shooter finishes pistols moves to right, taking shot shell out of belt with left hand Arrives at table, with left hand drops shell in 97 carrier with right hand picks up rifle Finishes rifle then proceeds to pick up shotgun with shell in carrier and two more shells in hand(s) Minor Safety SHB pg 42 Quote Empty or live round in magazine or carrier of the long gun in which it was loaded after the next firearm is fired, or if last firearm, put down on the unloading table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyliefoxEsquire Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 so much for FUN!!! That was way too fast of a reply. But obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee williams Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 40 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said: @Tennessee williams You can pick a 97 up, drop 1 on the carrier, set it down on the table and pull up your pants, scratch your nose and do the hokey pokey, but it is still a no call, as long as the round is not in the chamber and is cleared before the first round is fired from a gun that is not the shotgun which you just loaded the round into, it is still a no call. the MS Penalty is SHB pg 42 SDQ Penalty SHB pg 42 40 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said: @Tennessee williams You can pick a 97 up, drop 1 on the carrier, set it down on the table and pull up your pants, scratch your nose and do the hokey pokey, but it is still a no call, as long as the round is not in the chamber and is cleared before the first round is fired from a gun that is not the shotgun which you just loaded the round into, it is still a no call. the MS Penalty is SHB pg 42 SDQ Penalty SHB pg 42 I'm not advocating for a MS penalty. I wouldn't even call it. HOWEVER. What is the penalty for an improper staged firearm? A P? What position is the shotgun in when it is not in contact with the shooter? There are only 4 positions I know of for long guns. Staged. Restaged. Restaged for further use. And in hand. In hand is defined as in contact with the shooter so it is not that. There are no defined terms for a shotgun to be restaged for further use, only the rifle(that I know of). That only leaves staged. It says a shotgun can only be staged open and empty. Should there be a caveat for this? Or is there another defined term for a long gun besides "in hand" and "staged"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 YA KNOW, If folks will just dream up every dumb scenario they can imagine, we can probably get this NO CALL all the way out to 3 or 4 pages. Without actually saying anything worthwhile. Betcha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee williams Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 1 minute ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said: YA KNOW, If folks will just dream up every dumb scenario they can imagine, we can probably get this NO CALL all the way out to 3 or 4 pages. Without actually saying anything worthwhile. Betcha Or better yet people could make general comments that add nothing to the conversation. Betcha that would work too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 22 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said: I'm not advocating for a MS penalty. I wouldn't even call it. HOWEVER. What is the penalty for an improper staged firearm? A P? What position is the shotgun in when it is not in contact with the shooter? There are only 4 positions I know of for long guns. Staged. Restaged. Restaged for further use. And in hand. In hand is defined as in contact with the shooter so it is not that. There are no defined terms for a shotgun to be restaged for further use, only the rifle(that I know of). That only leaves staged. It says a shotgun can only be staged open and empty. Should there be a caveat for this? Or is there another defined term for a long gun besides "in hand" and "staged"? I think in that context staged is a verb, not a noun. That’s why the correct way to describe it is ‘improperly staged.’ Not improper staged. The shotgun was properly staged, before the shooter commenced the course of fire. The rule Jack quoted clearly allows for a shotgun having a shell in the action, while not in hand, during a specific period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 @Tennessee williams SHB of 16 Quote Shotguns are always staged open and empty and are loaded on the clock unless the stage begins with the shotgun in the shooter’s hands. Was the shotgun staged open and empty? Was it loaded on the clock? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee williams Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 3 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said: I think in that context staged is a verb, not a noun. That’s why the correct way describe it is ‘improperly staged.’ Not improper staged. Don't you have a nanner split to go eat? Oh wait, that's me! I yield to the fact I should have used improperly but not that the word staged is a verb. It is in fact an adjective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 2 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said: Don't you have a nanner split to go eat? Oh wait, that's me! I yield to the fact I should have used improperly but not that the word staged is a verb. It is in fact an adjective. Lol! You sure it’s not an adverb? A nanner split would be good right about now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 30 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said: There are only 4 positions I know of for long guns. Staged. Restaged. Restaged for further use. And in hand. In hand is defined as in contact with the shooter so it is not that. There are no defined terms for a shotgun to be restaged for further use, only the rifle(that I know of). There is no definition for a long gun in hand. Only revolver. SHB pg 45 Quote Revolver in hand – when the muzzle of the revolver clears the mouth of the holster, or breaks contact with a prop where it was staged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee williams Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 1 minute ago, Captain Bill Burt said: Lol! You sure it’s not an adverb? A nanner split would be good right about now. I am positive it's an adjective. Lol, I had to check to make sure before I posted it. Hahaha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee williams Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 4 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said: There is no definition for a long gun in hand. Only revolver. SHB pg 45 There was a clarification a while back about what the definition of in hand was for a long gun. I can't find it but it was "in contact". I've been wrong before. @PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L was there such a clarification in one of our debates? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 I think that was something to the effect of a gun being considered ‘under the shooter’s control’ as long as there was contact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee williams Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 Just now, Captain Bill Burt said: I think that was something to the effect of a gun being considered ‘under the shooter’s control’ as long as there was I think you're right about that, but I remember a pretty good debate where in hand was used too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 While we’re branching out I would also like to know the meaning of life and how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. PWB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrel Cody Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 Bet PWB is ROTFLHAO...... OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 10 hours ago, Trooper Ozzy said: Open empty 97 shotgun staged on table, chamber up. After shooting rifle or pistol sequence, pulling shells from belt, dropping one into open chamber then picking up with right hand and proceeding to cycle and shoot. One observation was a loaded shotgun was then left on table, although for a fraction of a second, before right or left hand was in control of the shotgun. Rule problem? Option 1 was to grasp with right hand first and drop shell with left, then shoulder and fire. Option 2 was to slide right hand back in contact with gun after dropping shell into chamber, then shoulder and fire. Or are we overthinking with too many RO's on the stage looking in. Have you attended any SASS, RO classes? OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Badly Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 Did someone say nanner split? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 So we have one side saying it "should" be a penalty and the other side saying it is obviously a no call. When like most things - it is somewhere between the two points. So; look at the incident in a linear fashion... Firearm is staged open and empty. Hunky dory - No call at this moment. Firearm has a round placed on the carrier while firearm is not in hand. Minor safety is earned - right then. Firearm is then cleared, prior to another firearm being discharged. Minor safety is negated/ removed right then. So YES; a penalty is warranted for the round on the carrier of a long gun; not in hand. The penalty was earned the instant the round entered the firearm. But if this penalty is retained is 100% based on the shooters actions AFTER the penalty is earned. If the firearm is cleared, before the next gun is discharged - the penalty is removed. This soothes the, "it has be a penalty" side by assigning the deserved penalty and satisfies the "no call" side by immediately negating that same penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 Now that this thread has reached "nanner split" status, PLEASE scroll up and reread @Branchwater Jack SASS #88854's responses. I appreciate his getting to this while I was on a run to the plantation (medical transport mission). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imis Twohofon,SASS # 46646 Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 I dont quite know what to say, but I do like nanner splits meownself. Imis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trooper Ozzy Posted January 3, 2020 Author Share Posted January 3, 2020 Thanks for all the answers boys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 22 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said: WAY OVER thinking. NO call. Unless folks are just drooling over the opportunity to penalize someone for something of no consequence. 14 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said: YA KNOW, If folks will just dream up every dumb scenario they can imagine, we can probably get this NO CALL all the way out to 3 or 4 pages. Without actually saying anything worthwhile. Betcha + 1000000 to Coffinmaker!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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