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Obsolete Rimfires


H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619

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Another thread got me to wondering.    Just how "feasible" would it be for one of the major ammo makers to recreate some of the obsolete rimfire calibers?

Let's get specific and say .32RF, .38RF and .44RF.   Let's even assume that said ammo could be manufactured efficiently enough so that it could be sold for a reasonable cost.  Let's say 35 dollars for a box of 50 rounds.

 

That's reasonable.  But see, here's the problem, are there enough guns chambered for these rounds, that are in shootable condition, that are owned by people who would actually WANT to shoot them.   I'd be willing to bet that if someone owns a real Henry, 66 or a Colt SAA in .44RF that they'd not want to shoot it even if ammo was available because the guns are so valuable.   

As far as the smaller calibers go, yes, I do see them come up for sale for affordable prices in many places from time to time.   Again, assuming they are safe to shoot, are there still enough of them out there to create enough demand to justify the creation of the ammunition.   I mean, even if Remington could load up a box of .38 RF at a cost to them of 20 a box, and then market it for 35, but then they only sell 7 boxes of the stuff, that's not a lot of profit.   I'd LIKE to think that the ammo could sell.  I know I've passed on some nice condition, and affordable old guns, only because they were chambered in a RF caliber.   If the ammo was available, I would have purchased the guns, and perhaps one or two boxes of ammo a year to shoot it once or twice a year.   But I don't think that there are enough people like me to make it worth while.

 

Anyone have a different opinion on the matter?

 

Bonus:  I have seen some old conversion that look very similar the modern day Kirst and Holland conversions.   I wonder if a modern ring or cap could be paired with those old cylinders and thus convert them to CF.   I have no idea if the RF dimensions are the same as the CF ones.  

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I f a company would start producing rim fire firearms someone would make the rds.  The old create a market and you shall flourish.   

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Another thread got me to wondering.    Just how "feasible" would it be for one of the major ammo makers to recreate some of the obsolete rimfire calibers?

Let's get specific and say .32RF, .38RF and .44RF.   Let's even assume that said ammo could be manufactured efficiently enough so that it could be sold for a reasonable cost.  Let's say 35 dollars for a box of 50 rounds.

 

That's reasonable.  But see, here's the problem, are there enough guns chambered for these rounds, that are in shootable condition, that are owned by people who would actually WANT to shoot them.   I'd be willing to bet that if someone owns a real Henry, 66 or a Colt SAA in .44RF that they'd not want to shoot it even if ammo was available because the guns are so valuable.   

As far as the smaller calibers go, yes, I do see them come up for sale for affordable prices in many places from time to time.   Again, assuming they are safe to shoot, are there still enough of them out there to create enough demand to justify the creation of the ammunition.   I mean, even if Remington could load up a box of .38 RF at a cost to them of 20 a box, and then market it for 35, but then they only sell 7 boxes of the stuff, that's not a lot of profit.   I'd LIKE to think that the ammo could sell.  I know I've passed on some nice condition, and affordable old guns, only because they were chambered in a RF caliber.   If the ammo was available, I would have purchased the guns, and perhaps one or two boxes of ammo a year to shoot it once or twice a year.   But I don't think that there are enough people like me to make it worth while.

 

Anyone have a different opinion on the matter?

 

Bonus:  I have seen some old conversion that look very similar the modern day Kirst and Holland conversions.   I wonder if a modern ring or cap could be paired with those old cylinders and thus convert them to CF.   I have no idea if the RF dimensions are the same as the CF ones.  

They won't. 

Those RF rounds were all loaded with black powder.

OLG 

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And bp loading is a problem because?  I would add .41 rimfire to the wish list.  The old navy arms .41 rf ammo is going for as much as $250 a box now.  This would seem to indicate a demand.  I would be happy to be able to buy it for $40-50 a box to be able to shoot my old Remington derringer.  There are a lot of .41 rf guns around.  

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Anyone have a different opinion on the matter? 

Yes, there is no market for rim fire firearms other than the modern 22's

Go into any good fire arms store and there are no new rifles on the racks other than 22's

Once in a full moon, there may be a fire arm with a 25 RF chamber up to 44RF but they will be fair condition with shot out bores at best and ones in 85% condition or better are scarcer than hens teeth.

The only good RF's are in the safes of avid collectors. If you are interested though, there is an engraved Ballard 22RF on the market now - $3000

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You can reload your own obsolete RF cartridges with a kit. It's not as easy as a Dillon but it does make it possible to plink or shoot a stage or two with older firearms.

https://www.hlebooks.com/32rfkit/prices.htm

 

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It costs ammunition companies plenty to tool up for a specific cartridge and if they only sell a few thousand rounds a year, they lose money.

IIRC, Black powder is considered an explosive and handled differently than smokeless powder, as far as legally and storage wise.

Too big a risk and too much BATF (or whatever they are calling themselves now) BS. Not worth the money to an ammo company.

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And bp loading is a problem because?  I would add .41 rimfire to the wish list.  The old navy arms .41 rf ammo is going for as much as $250 a box now.  This would seem to indicate a demand.  I would be happy to be able to buy it for $40-50 a box to be able to shoot my old Remington derringer.  There are a lot of .41 rf guns around.  

 

BP has different storage laws and no large ammo maker see's the need to deal with it.

OLG 

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BP has different storage laws and no large ammo maker see's the need to deal with it. 

Add ... the primary reason for not selling black powder in stores - Insurance Costs

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And bp loading is a problem because?  I would add .41 rimfire to the wish list.  The old navy arms .41 rf ammo is going for as much as $250 a box now.  This would seem to indicate a demand.  I would be happy to be able to buy it for $40-50 a box to be able to shoot my old Remington derringer.  There are a lot of .41 rf guns around.  

Holy moley! $250 a box for the Navy Arms .41rf ammo? :o  Some years ago, when my pard and co-author of the book on the Remingtion O/U Double Derringers, we chronographed some of that stuff vs. some 1950's vintage Remington smokeless ammo.  The Navy Arms stuff gave higher MV than the older Remington ammo.  Hence, we recommended against using the Navy Arms rounds in the original derringers.  We did not check pressure levels, however. (Testing was done in a single-shot Remington rolling block action gun.)  But at the value of those boxes now, I'd hang on to them!

Happy, Healthy and Prosperous New Year to all!

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I have worked in gun stores and owned a gun shop for years and have never heard of restrictions for loaded ammunition.  But, if that is actually an issue, use bp substitute.  


Because the old calibers are chambered in old guns, they would have to be loaded to low pressures.  Navy Arms loaded  their 41 rf a little too hot and it was known to crack the hinges of Remington derringers.  A lower pressure/velocity round would be better.  

 

i have seen a lot of old rimfire handguns that were cheap and in great shape.  Since rimfire ammo has not been widely available since the start of WWII they have not been shot in a while.  

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Certainly there would be a market for .41, and .32 and 32 Long rimfire -- one can tell because the prices for those in existence are very high, even the reproduction .32 Longs that Navy Arms sold 30 years ago. But the manufacturers won't make them because the market isn't quite large enough. I'd think there'd be market for those two, plus .44 Henry and the Spencer rounds -- but how much could a maker sell? Unless its in the millions of rounds a year, they probably aren't interested.

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You can reload your own obsolete RF cartridges with a kit. It's not as easy as a Dillon but it does make it possible to plink or shoot a stage or two with older firearms.

https://www.hlebooks.com/32rfkit/prices.htm

 

 Looking at this link - it seems a fella can buy a sample kit & some .22 blanks & be in the clover ....

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On 12/30/2019 at 9:14 PM, Doc Coles SASS 1188 said:

And bp loading is a problem because?  I would add .41 rimfire to the wish list.  The old navy arms .41 rf ammo is going for as much as $250 a box now.  This would seem to indicate a demand.  I would be happy to be able to buy it for $40-50 a box to be able to shoot my old Remington derringer.  There are a lot of .41 rf guns around.

 

Really?

 

$250 a box?

 

Tell me where you saw some idiot paying that much for a box of Navy Arms 41 Rimfire so I can cash in. Not how much were they asking, how much was actually paid for it.

 

image.thumb.jpeg.169775be4c54c7c6a1deaa065948b79a.jpeg

 

 

 

 

OK, yes, most of the old Rimfire cartridges were loaded with Black Powder. Not all though, notice the box of Peters 32 Rimfire Longs on the left was loaded with Improved Semi-Smokeless powder.

 

image.thumb.jpeg.ed951897a058171ec0826db223dab5a0.jpeg

 

 

 

 

Some more boxes of antique Rimfire ammo.

 

image.thumb.jpeg.26dd1e5600b67436767752db612e62ad.jpeg

 

 

 

 

OK, let's be practical for a moment. I have been shooting Black Powder ammunition for a long time, but it is not for everyone. Most shooters want store bought Smokeless ammo. Specialty Rimfire ammo loaded with Black Powder? You are going to pay a lot more than $40-$50 a box. Buffalo Arms sells ammunition loaded with Black Powder. $40 or $50 a box for common stuff like 45 Colt or 44-40. Less common? 44 American, $90.59 for 50. No, they do not carry any of the old rimfire ammo loaded with Black Powder, but you can bet if they did, it would cost a lot more than $40 or $50 a box. The law of Supply and Demand.

 

Would the old Rimfire cartridges have to be loaded with Black Powder? Of course not.  the original 22 Rimfires were loaded with Black Powder, but they have been loaded with Smokeless since dinosaurs roamed the earth.

 

Frankly though, it is the law of Supply and Demand.

 

Do you really think a company is going to load up obsolete Rimfire ammo, loaded with either Smokeless or BP, for a reasonable price?

 

If so, I own a bridge over the Hudson River in NYC you might be interested in purchasing.

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1 hour ago, Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 said:

 

Really?

 

$250 a box?

 

Tell me where you saw some idiot paying that much for a box of Navy Arms 41 Rimfire so I can cash in. Not how much were they asking, how much was actually paid for it.


Here you go, https://www.308ammo.com/41-Short-Rimfire-p/na41rf.htm  I did round it up $2.01, but shipping would have put it well over $250.  They are currently out of stock, which would seem to indicate that someone bought them at this price.  

 

I make no claim that this is the “going price” and I am sure that better deals can be had in the right circumstances.  But thanks for the snarky comment. 

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