Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967 Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 Well... we could be charitable and consider that his command "Drop it!" did indeed draw the shooters attention - and likely distracted him from shooting anyone else in the congregation. Yup... I think that's how I'll look at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 My inner armchair quarterback says, "shoot him." The realist in me says, "you are a nervous Nellie and would probably hit an innocent bystander." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 I am a deacon at my church and have given many bags of food away to those who come asking. Most are apologetic for being in need. Only once did I have a confrontation. A fellow came in the evening demanding money for food and gas. I offered leftovers from a recent potluck which he refused saying he and his son didn't eat leftovers and repeated his demand for cash for gasoline and a restaurant meal. Before I could throw the fellow out the head pastor came by and met his demand. Some vagrants think a church is an ATM to be visited whenever they need cash. These vagrants aren't confined to North Texas and are a threat everywhere. BTW, I was armed that evening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 My inner armchair quarterback says, "shoot him." The realist in me says, "you are a nervous Nellie and would probably hit an innocent bystander." Allie, I like your armchair quarterback self. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subdeacon Joe Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 Wouldn't do me any good to carry in church. Couldn't get to it under the vestments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Still hand Bill Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 Pretty sure this will be analyzed to death over the next few Weeks/months. Couple of take aways that I see, 1) it happened fast. 6 seconds from start to end. Not any time to think about what you should do. Need a plan before it happens. 2) you need to be aware of what’s going on around you. The security was already watching the shooter before he acted. Had they not, it could have ended differently. See item 1. 3)if carrying you need a holster that draws quickly. If it doesn’t it might get you killed. See #1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypress Sun Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 I've been reading this thread ever since the very 1st post and I've read everyone's post, some two or three times. I've faced a bad guy with a gun twice. Once when I was about 18 working in a self serve gas station and got robbed and once when working in a restaurant and it got robbed. At the gas station, the robber was about 6 inches taller than me, about 3' away from me with a Jennings type .32 pointed at my belly. I had a .45 under the counter. Was I the hero, nope...I opened up the register and he took the money out of it and ran. As soon as he hit the door, I retrieved my pistol and aimed through the glass at him but he was already past the pumps. Didn't fire and called the cops. They never caught him or them. At the restaurant, I was a cook. I didn't even know we were being robbed until a waitress came back to the line and told us. Me and the other cook ran out of the back door to get some shotguns out of the trunk of his car but then the robber with a sawed off came running out and saw us. He yelled freeze, I did. He took off in a getaway car with no plate. Called the cops, they never caught them. Everyone can have an opinion on what they would do if faced with a situation like I had, like the church had and like hundreds of other have had. Truth is, unless you were trained for it, you don't know what you are going to do until it happens to you and even then who knows. Anyone can Monday morning quarterback what happened at the church, I'm just glad that someone had the training and skill to react to the threat with positive results in neutralizing the bad guy. I feel bad for the families of the murdered men and the folks who had to witness two good men lose their life's due to this senseless crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozark Huckleberry Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 My inner armchair quarterback says, "shoot him." The realist in me says, "you are a nervous Nellie and would probably hit an innocent bystander." You’re already WAY ahead of most people in gun handling. Take the shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Rio Pete Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 FYI From someone’s FB post from Political Cowboy . c o m “And, for those wondering what he used to take that legendary shot, he indicated in a comment, saying, “SIG P229-357 SIG.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Harley, #14153 Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 I have a serious question, based on a conversation with a friend yesterday. Based on the info above, where Richard White (church member who drew his pistol) and said..... "Drop It". Would you think its advantageous to make verbal commands in these situations or just draw down and shoot the perp. Is there some advantage to having a verbal contact with someone who has already produced a lethal weapon? Or would your advantage be to just take an appropriate action (reaction) without making verbal commands? It sure didn't look like the head of their security team was in a talking mood. ..........Widder I’ve always been of the mindset that talking my way out of a bad situation is a good thing. But if the gun has had to come out, it is most likely time to use it. Unless, of course, the other guy backs down and I’m cognizant enough to realize it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 Thanks SUN. Indeed, I have posted a few times on this thread, but I think all of them were inquiries about the situation and a couple questions about the video. You are right in your post. Many of us (including me) don't rightly know what we might do or think until the situation presents itself. If I'm by myself (without my family) I might react different than I would with my family around. We just don't know. Relative Story: My older brother spent about 8-10 years in the Marines and reserves. Then he was hired by the Post Office. One day, he was assigned to go to the airport and pick up some high priced insured diamonds (he was told it was diamonds). The postal supervisor handed him a 1911 (.45) and told him to strap it on. This is my brothers side of the story as told to me: Brother: What's this for? Supv: in case someone tries to rob you of the diamonds, you'll be able to protect them. Brother: You're crazy..... if someone armed tries to take those diamonds, they can have em. I ain't risking my life in a gun fight over somebody else's material stuff like diamonds. My brother indicated to me that because he had a lengthy service in the Marines that he would somehow become Mr.Hero in case of an armed encounter. Inside his home or for his family, he would become Godzilla. But faced with other situations, he (like most of us) ain't looking for any hero status in the local newspaper. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subdeacon Joe Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 Inside his home or for his family, he would become Godzilla. But faced with other situations, he (like most of us) ain't looking for any hero status in the local newspaper. For me Church is family. In some ways closer than my blood kin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subdeacon Joe Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 And the memes start: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 https://www.cleveland19.com/2019/12/31/minister-texas-gunman-grew-angry-past-over-cash-requests/?fbclid=IwAR2mzN_Pwv9hXeOQMTIgYX1nCYmxzmJpbDKknNjumatSVyWNtBc20Fn0Ia4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.D. Daily Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 I played the video many times today to observe the actions of the shooter, the 2 victims & the hero who stopped the shooter with one shot. It appears that the shooter gets up & walks to an open window to ditch a backpack. Then he walks up to the standing victim & they exchange some words. All the while the seated victim is observing what is happening. When the shooter starts to withdraw the shotgun the seated victim leans slightly forward to standup. Then he uncovers his handgun & withdraws his handgun as he stands up. It appears the shooter is backing up towards the front before he notices the armed threat & engages the immediate threat. The armed victim was shot before his handgun is pointed at the shooter. My Monday morning quarterbacking is; besides not burying his gun under 2 layers of clothing he should have started drawing before standing. That would have lengthened the time before the shooter realized he was armed & dangerous. Also, he could have remained in a crouch minimizing his exposure. The shooter's movement towards the alter indicates that his intended target wasn't the 2 victims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee williams Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 ..........Widder You sure do have some smart family. I agree with him. Someone comes into the store I'm in and robs it, they can have it. Threaten me or mine and it's a different story. There's a few exceptions too, that really make me see red. Being mean to a kid, elderly person, or a woman is a shortcut to getting on my bad side. I'm liable to make em beat me up quick. Side note, I can't see carrying a gun under a bunch of clothes. Makes for a bad situation. Kind of like carrying your 1911 without one in the chamber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramblin Gambler Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 My instructor taught me to take 2 shots and scan the area. He said to do that when I practice. I am not very good at it. Cowboy shooting has probably made it harder to form that habit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subdeacon Joe Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 https://texas.concealedcarry.com/2019/12/31/in-depth-analysis-of-texas-church-shooting-footage/?fbclid=IwAR0nfaT9Gv7W_B8lfYOBSGAX7EgpHYsigKWoJ0WdgbBcPlLhjmyO2Q4U_GE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. James H. Callahan Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 17 hours ago, Tennessee williams said: You sure do have some smart family. I agree with him. Someone comes into the store I'm in and robs it, they can have it. Threaten me or mine and it's a different story. There's a few exceptions too, that really make me see red. Being mean to a kid, elderly person, or a woman is a shortcut to getting on my bad side. I'm liable to make em beat me up quick. Side note, I can't see carrying a gun under a bunch of clothes. Makes for a bad situation. Kind of like carrying your 1911 without one in the chamber. Clothes would be a detriment for sure. But still better to be armed IMHO. If the stuff hits the fan your .45 at home in the gun safe is no help. JHC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee williams Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 1 hour ago, Capt. James H. Callahan said: Clothes would be a detriment for sure. But still better to be armed IMHO. If the stuff hits the fan your .45 at home in the gun safe is no help. JHC Ha! You misunderstand. I would forfeit the shirts and coats before my sidearm! I even carry in my house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 2 hours ago, Subdeacon Joe said: https://texas.concealedcarry.com/2019/12/31/in-depth-analysis-of-texas-church-shooting-footage/?fbclid=IwAR0nfaT9Gv7W_B8lfYOBSGAX7EgpHYsigKWoJ0WdgbBcPlLhjmyO2Q4U_GE Thanks Joe, that was an excellent analysis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 All in all I think the Team did a Good Job, in a bad situation ..... Was the response Perfect ?? ,,,,, Are any of US perfect ??? While Time can seem to slow in this kind of Situation ,,,,, it doesn't and it was Handled well ... Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forty Rod SASS 3935 Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 I just looked at the video again. I don't recall seeing so many heroes and potential heroes in a single civilian setting before. People with arms moving on the shooter, people covering and shielding one another with their own bodies, others standing up and going to help to help where they could. Very little panic evident. Texans living up to their image. God bless them all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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