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BP 45c loads for Marlin '94 Q's


Eyesa Horg

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I recently posted this on CAS city and got some very helpful info. Thought I'd post here to see what the fire could add.

Thank you for any help.

One additional question however, If I load BP with a filler---should I use a card between the powder and filler or just under the bullet or wonder wad. Or, not at all?

 

"I've got a match coming up this spring that will require BP loads. As normally a smokeless shooter I'd like to start out my BP experience with what I have on hand. I have some 200gr. Desparado Cowboy bullets that they say are BP compatible. I'm thinking that won't be enough lube in the rifle. Can I put a 1/8" lubed wad under them and get decent results? How much powder should I use to keep recoil reasonable with a bad shoulder? I've heard some say about 1.2 CC and some filler. If this gets me addicted to BP, I will go to Big Lube I guess!   How often do you figure I'll need to swab the barrel and what do you do to keep all the fouling from falling into the action when swabbed at the gun cart?"

Much Obliged,
EH

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If you're loading light with a filler, the filler goes right on top of the powder.  Crunch the bullet right down on top of the filler.  This is provided you're using a bullet that carries enough lube.  Most smokeless lube bullets don't play well with BP.  I personally prefer "Big Lube" bullets.

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Filler between powder and bullet.  I loaded up a bunch of 180g 44 sp and added a 1/4” 410 felt wad to take up space.   Load was 180g tcfp, 1.3cc black mz, and 1/4” 410 felt wad.  
 

IMHO light loads with bp are tough as you have to fill the case.  A lighter bullet is shorter which adds powder.  That means with a light bullet you almost have to run filler.  

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Lubed wads on top of powder in cartridges do not play well together.  Since cartridges are not used right away, the lube has time to contaminate the powder.

The lubed wads are used mostly by those of us shooting cap n' ball... But, I've stopped using them and just put some lube over the ball.  For BP .45 pistol cartridges, I use a smaller case.  .45 S&W Schofield or Cowboy 45 Special cases do well for reduced loads.   For rifle cartridges, I go with a full load.   By the way, I found that my '66 will handle Schofield cases with a 200gr bullet without a hitch.

 

Your Missouri bullets that say they are BP Compatible are likely lubed with SPG or similar substance...   

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With such a light load, you'll probably be ok for regular bullets if you are shooting a carbine or short rifle.  It wouldn't hurt to run a wet patch down the barrel halfway through the day but not mandatory.  If you go full-time with bp, definitely go with Big Lubes so you can run the whole match without swabbing the bore.

 

Filler over the powder with a solid 1/8" of compression is normal.  To keep blow-by at Bay, anneal your cases before loading.  

 

Have a little spray can of Ballistol to lube the action if it starts to get sticky.  I'd keep a tube of Bore Butter available to lube the front of your handgun cylinders to keep the fouling soft.

 

Just be advised, once you go to the dark side, you might not make it back to that far powder. :ph34r:

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I use straight Ballistol for between stage lube.  You can also mix hydrogen peroxide, alcohol, and just a splash of Murphy's Oil Soap and spray it on.  Just don't use any petroleum based stuff, it does play well with black.  Also you'll need to bring a jug of water mixed with dish soap with you, after each stage drop your brass in the jug or it'll get corroded.  

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Hope your Marlin has Ballard type rifling and not micro-groove.

OLG 

It's Ballard. Thanks OLG

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Lubed wads on top of powder in cartridges do not play well together.  Since cartridges are not used right away, the lube has time to contaminate the powder.

The lubed wads are used mostly by those of us shooting cap n' ball... But, I've stopped using them and just put some lube over the ball.  For BP .45 pistol cartridges, I use a smaller case.  .45 S&W Schofield or Cowboy 45 Special cases do well for reduced loads.   For rifle cartridges, I go with a full load.   By the way, I found that my '66 will handle Schofield cases with a 200gr bullet without a hitch.

 

Your Missouri bullets that say they are BP Compatible are likely lubed with SPG or similar substance...   

How bout lubed wads above a .0060 veg. card/wad. I know I'm making it difficult, just want to try this darksider thing with items on hand first.:)

 

Thank you everyone for your great suggestions and tips. I do have some Black MZ, but would prefer to use real black.

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Lubed wad on top of a fiber would will work very well. 

Very common in BPCR loading. ;)

OLG 

Thanks OLG, it was you whom told me to do it for my 45-70 RB loads and has worked great. Just wanted to be sure it was the way to go in a smaller case. Thanks also for turning me towards Sage Outfitters.

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How often do you figure I'll need to swab the barrel and what do you do to keep all the fouling from falling into the action when swabbed at the gun cart?"

 

Howdy

 

Don't bother putting wads or anything else into your rounds. Just dump in the powder and seat the bullet, making sure you compress the powder by about 1/16" - 1/8" when you seat the bullet. If you insist on adding filler, just dump it on top of the powder, then seat the bullet. You will actually be compressing the filler, not the powder, but it does not matter, it will work fine. Frankly, with a heavy rifle like a Marlin, you will not notice the recoil so much and there is no real reason to add filler. Just fill the case with powder and be done with it. For precision long range shooting a card wad between the bullet and the powder is a good idea, but for normal CAS shooting I found out a long time ago that it was unnecessary extra work. You will not be deforming the base of the bullet, particularly a hard cast bullet, when you compress the powder with it. I did some accuracy tests years ago with and without wads between bullet and powder and there was no significant difference in accuracy. Do not put a grease cookie between the bullet and a wad. The cookie will glue the wad to the base of the bullet and accuracy will go to heck.

 

Back before I was using Big Lube bullets in my 44-40 rifles, when I was pan lubing hard cast bullets, I would swab out the barrel maybe once or maybe twice before lunch. I would just use a patch placed in the slotted end of my cleaning rod, soaked in Murphy's Mix (1/3 Murphy's Oil Soap, 1/3 Rubbing Alcohol, 1/3 Hydrogen Peroxide). If you are using a good, soft BP compatible bullet lube you will find that you are only getting hard fouling for the last six inches or so near the muzzle, the rest of the bore should not have any hard fouling.

 

Actually, you could use any of your favorite water based BP cleaning solutions, including just plain water.

 

I never worried about pushing fouling into the mechanism of the rifle, but if it worries you, place an empty case into the chamber and close the action on the empty case before swabbing the barrel. In this case, make sure you are using the slotted end of the cleaning rod to hold the patch. Do not use a jag. A jag will probably jam the patch into the empty case in the chamber and you will be very unhappy. Trust me on this.

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Some great points Driftwood. I'm not opposed to trying full case loads, the reason I was going to try the wonder wads (homemade) under the bullet was to have enough lube to carry to the muzzle. My Desparado Cowboy bullets only have a normal smokeless lube groove. Will likely work OK in the pistols with C45S cases, but I think it will be shy in the rifle. Good tip on not using a jag which is exactly what I would have done!

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Driftwood Johnson is correct.  Fill your cartridge caseswith Holy Black to the tippy, tip, top, ;) compress about 1/16" with a multi grooved bullet lubed with SPG and go boom.  :D Do your cleaning with a brush followed by a patch in a jag, wetted with Windex with Vinegar and water, swab using  a patch in a slotted jag with Ballistol and have a great shoot.  Keep your empties in a jug filled with Windex with vinegar and water. KISS!!!!  :)

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MM: If he fills the cases to the tippy top he will have a lot more than 1/16" of compression. And if you want to keep crud out of the action just use a bore snake and pull it all out the front of the bore.  As for dumping your empties into a jug of water, well, it won't hurt, but those cases aren't going to corrode before you get home. Let's not make this any harder than it really is.  As for the Desperado bullets, they'll probably work fine in the pistols, and if you run a wet bore snake through the rifle every couple of stages they will probably work fine in the rifle also, and save you all that filler/wad/grease cookie hassle.

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Thanks some more guys. I'm good on the not quite tippity top! I would go for 1/16-1/8" compression.

Isn't using a snake at the cart frowned upon due to having to tip the rifle over to drop the snake in?

Good info SS on how often to swab/clean the barrel, every couple stages even with low lube bullets doesn't seem too bad.

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Swab at the unreloading table.  That's also a good place to lube the rifle action.   Have you shot black powder through your revolvers before?  I had one revolver that would bind after two rounds.  Long Hunters solved that problem for me.

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When bore snakeing do whatever your club is comfortable with. I do mine away from the line and away from shooters, and never point it at anybody. What's a reloading table? We have a loading table and an unloading table, but that's it.

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Swab at the reloading table.  That's also a good place to lube the rifle action.   Have you shot black powder through your revolvers before?  I had one revolver that would bind after two rounds.  Long Hunters solved that problem for me.

 

 

 We have a loading table and an unloading table, but that's it.

My error! :rolleyes:

Merry Christmas!

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Swab at the unreloading table.  That's also a good place to lube the rifle action.   Have you shot black powder through your revolvers before?  I had one revolver that would bind after two rounds.  Long Hunters solved that problem for me.

I have not shot black in my rifle or pistols. I will surely test them out at home B4 using in a match. My biggest fear is the addiction to BP:P. I like not having to clean a pile of guns when I get home! This match I'm going to try will require an additional single shot rifle as well.

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Cleaning BP guns becomes as automatic as shooting a stage quickly. It's a small price to pay for so much fun. :D

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If you load within a day or two or three of the match use lubed wads if you'd like that extra bit of insurance against hard fouling.  If your bbl is anything over 20", be sure to use either a grease cookie* (much preferred),   a lubed wad, or plan on snaking out after every stage... unless you can shoot last on one stage & 1st on the next!  Then you can snake every other stage!  But it will be hard, crusty fouling unless it's very humid out.  The dryer the climate, the harder the crust!

 

Don't worry overly much about compression... folks make it a BIG deal... and it is in Cap & Ball rifles & pistols wheres there no casing, just powder to steel.  I've been shooting BP 45 Colt in my 1986 '73 Uberti 24" rifle since 1987 and neither I, nor the rifle have suffered any ill effects.  I load 28 grains of 2f or Goex's discontinued "Cartridge" BP.  Now... that said, you do want case expansion to keep fouling in the action to a minimum... minimum for the 45 Colt that is.  I haven't had less than about 28 grains work consistently... 25 is the floor for me on very humid, hot (>100°F) days.

 

If you want accuracy, use a card wad, (think waxed card stock gass check) between powder & bullet.  Make sure bullet base is clean & dry when loaded, you don't  want to have either lube (from cookie) or the card wad sticking to the bullet base.  Straight to tumbling if that happens.  Honestly at CAS distances it may not make much difference, but if there's the possibility of max SASS  rifle distances (50 yds), you might get an miss or two,  especially if you're  a shooter that uses the whole (all 16sq.in.) target!  You can also use a dry card between the powder & lubed wad to mitigate lube migration if loading further in advance.  I use a 1/2 inch punch from the hardware store to cut my dry wads out of milk cartons... or half-and-half, anything that comes in the waxed paper type cartons.  It may seem like a big deal, but shooting straight thru in two days of 6 stages per day, is mucho satisfacto.  I've shot 8 stages in one day in a match @ Raton w/o cleaning using BP, a dry wad under RCBS' 45-225-CAV bullet out of a 24-1/4" Uberti '73 on more'n one occasion.  

 

 

* grease cookie = dry wad, grease layer ~ 1/8" thick or more, then another dry card.  See above on the why of the dry card between grease & bullet.

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Shoot SASS with both kids and your wife, then you will have a pile of guns to clean!  Compression may be over-rated, but so is cleaning the minute you get home. As long as you are using real BP with a bullet that holds enough lube, or grease cookies, the guns will not turn into a pile of rust that fast. I leave mine for a  few days all the time, and in the 10 years i have been shooting BP almost exclusively I haven't had any rust. The only time was when I was using up some Pyrodex someone gave me, that stuff is very corrosive compared to real BP.

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Thanks again--- Learned about Pyrodex years ago, I swear you can hear them rust after the first shot! The wife does join me, so therefore 8 guns. She won't do BP however so I'm back down to four:).

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If you load within a day or two or three of the match use lubed wads if you'd like that extra bit of insurance against hard fouling.  If your bbl is anything over 20", be sure to use either a grease cookie* (much preferred),   a lubed wad, or plan on snaking out after every stage... unless you can shoot last on one stage & 1st on the next!  Then you can snake every other stage!  But it will be hard, crusty fouling unless it's very humid out.  The dryer the climate, the harder the crust!

 

Don't worry overly much about compression... folks make it a BIG deal... and it is in Cap & Ball rifles & pistols wheres there no casing, just powder to steel.  I've been shooting BP 45 Colt in my 1986 '73 Uberti 24" rifle since 1987 and neither I, nor the rifle have suffered any ill effects.  I load 28 grains of 2f or Goex's discontinued "Cartridge" BP.  Now... that said, you do want case expansion to keep fouling in the action to a minimum... minimum for the 45 Colt that is.  I haven't had less than about 28 grains work consistently... 25 is the floor for me on very humid, hot (>100°F) days.

 

If you want accuracy, use a card wad, (think waxed card stock gass check) between powder & bullet.  Make sure bullet base is clean & dry when loaded, you don't  want to have either lube (from cookie) or the card wad sticking to the bullet base.  Straight to tumbling if that happens.  Honestly at CAS distances it may not make much difference, but if there's the possibility of max SASS  rifle distances (50 yds), you might get an miss or two,  especially if you're  a shooter that uses the whole (all 16sq.in.) target!  You can also use a dry card between the powder & lubed wad to mitigate lube migration if loading further in advance.  I use a 1/2 inch punch from the hardware store to cut my dry wads out of milk cartons... or half-and-half, anything that comes in the waxed paper type cartons.  It may seem like a big deal, but shooting straight thru in two days of 6 stages per day, is mucho satisfacto.  I've shot 8 stages in one day in a match @ Raton w/o cleaning using BP, a dry wad under RCBS' 45-225-CAV bullet out of a 24-1/4" Uberti '73 on more'n one occasion.  

 

 

* grease cookie = dry wad, grease layer ~ 1/8" thick or more, then another dry card.  See above on the why of the dry card between grease & bullet.

Thanks Griff for all this info.

All you Pards have been of great help here. I"m much more confident now going forward. It's gonna be a grin I think.   I've shot BP in the shotgun back when I had shoulder surgery and in Plainsman, but never in the rifle & pistol. I'll have to perfect my "Smoke Dance" :D

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Another thing too, don’t know if it’s mentioned here but backer rod is the best fillet I’ve ever found. I tried cream of wheat, corn meal and others, a small piece of backer rod works great and disappears when shot lol.

 

Captain Baylor’s article on it tell LS you all about it.

 

BD

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Just use American Pioneer Powder or Triple 7 and don't worry about the lubing.  You can use regular CAS bullets. 

 

You don't have to use full loads either unless you want to.  They are smoky smokeless powders, not an explosive like black powder.  Fill them halfway up and put some filler in to hit the base of the bullet if you wish, but I have shot the last 14 years not filling the cases to the top (first with .45 Colt and then .38 Special) and have not had any problem. 

 

I use a little plastic pipette to put some water down the rifle barrel from the chamber four times rotating it so all four quadrants are covered and it runs out the muzzle and pull a bore snake through.  Or you can use a rod.

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Just use American Pioneer Powder or Triple 7 and don't worry about the lubing.  You can use regular CAS bullets. 

 

You don't have to use full loads either unless you want to.  They are smoky smokeless powders, not an explosive like black powder.  Fill them halfway up and put some filler in to hit the base of the bullet if you wish, but I have shot the last 14 years not filling the cases to the top (first with .45 Colt and then .38 Special) and have not had any problem. 

 

I use a little plastic pipette to put some water down the rifle barrel from the chamber four times rotating it so all four quadrants are covered and it runs out the muzzle and pull a bore snake through.  Or you can use a rod.

Thanks Dead Head, as you can see, I'm trying to prepare for your Buffalo Shoot match this coming year!

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Most long time BPCR competitors use blow tubes to moisten our barrels.

 

BPCR is an individual sport. For example, I load all of my cartridge cases to the top and compress the poweder about 1/16"..However, I load light 500 grain bullets for the chickens and, for the pigs, turkeys and buffaloes, I use the same 650 grain Postell. ;)

 

I swear by MVA sights and their extra long shaft. World Class competitor, Dave Gullo of Buffalo Arms,, uses and carries Kelley Sights. I am an "also ran" class shooter. I do a lot of practice so my shooting note book delineates the proper sight settings for each range.as well as for "fun" shoots like in CAS. I note temperature, humidity, sun, etc. :D

 

You are different, I am different, we are all different so lots of practice at known ranges helps a lot.:)

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My .45 Colt bp load:

1.5 cc of APP or 777 FFFg, compressed slightly with a wooden rod

Cornmeal filler to the top, compress to about 1/8" below the case rim with the wooden rod

200-230 grain bullet with regular lube or no lube (About $75 will buy a Lee cast pot and a Lee tumble-lube mold.)

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