Al Oxide

[Al Oxide]

I have 2 fairly new Ruger New Vaquero 357 revolvers. I’m unable to sliphammer shoot with them. After the first shot the trigger must be reset for the hammer to fall completely. Is there a way to stop this from happening?

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

It is a design flaw/ bad fitment of parts from the factory on some of the new models. The hammer will interfere with the trigger spring and cause it to drag when you try to slip hammer. The metal can be ground away where the interference is and the problem goes away. 

[Tyrel Cody]

Hey Al, welcome to the wire.

If you dont have a fix by the next match let us know and well bring a pair to use and locate someone who can fix them to work like you want. I'm thinking Ruff Kut has worked on Vaqueros some.

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

Also, aluminum oxide puts a nice finish on the stainless ones. 

Welcome to the fire. 

[Tyrel Cody]

 

Also, aluminum oxide puts a nice finish on the stainless ones. 

Welcome to the fire. 

 

Those look cool! How's it hold up?

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

 

 

Those look cool! How's it hold up?

Really well. 

[Doc Shapiro]

I'm going to take a different look at it. 

 

STOP trying to sliphammer.  You're doing yourself a disservice, and it's NOT faster. 

 

That said, get your guns fixed.  That ain't normal.

 

Doc

 

[Dusty Devil Dale]

Slip hammering sure was faster and more accurate for me.  I can keep my whole right hand firmly gripping the revolver and lock onto the targets without worrying about the trigger pull moving the muzzle out of position.  

So why do you feel it is a bad habit? 

Just askin.  

[Doc Shapiro]

 

Slip hammering sure was faster and more accurate for me.  I can keep my whole right hand firmly gripping the revolver and lock onto the targets without worrying about the trigger pull moving the muzzle out of position.  

So why do you feel it is a bad habit? 

Just askin.  

 

Some can do it well.  However, this technique lacks precision and control.  There's just no way around the ergonomics of it.

[G W Wade]

Somebody here posted "I wish all my competitors slip hammered"         GW

[Dusty Devil Dale]

 

 

Some can do it well.  However, this technique lacks precision and control.  There's just no way around the ergonomics of it.

My experience has been that if done properly, holding the gun firmly in the strong side hand (including gripping the trigger solidly with the index finger), my control is much better.  I operate only the hammer with the weak side hand, but I position that hand by a finger or two lightly touching the front of the trigger guard.  I find there is much better grip and muzzle control than having to deal with trigger pull movement with the index finger of the same hand that is trying to positively grip the pistol and control muzzle movement. 

 

 Try holding your locked, extended arm rock solid without slight wrist motion while quickly moving your trigger finger to match your trigger pull.   It's even difficult to do it with your arm resting on a table.  Anatomically, there has to be at least some wrist motion when the trigger finger moves, because the pulling/extending index finger tendons pass through/across the wrist bones.  And it doesn't take a lot of wrist rotation to move the bullet off target. I find I can hold much more solidly with a full four-finger grip that doesn't have to move.   

 

Proper SH essentially eliminates trigger pull as a shooting variable.  It does require practice and careful attention,  to avoid unintended or improperly timed discharges that end up between targets. 

 

That's what works best for me.  It sounds like others differ.  I don't think I'll change back to conventional firing, as long as the rules permit SH.  

[Doc Shapiro]

 

My experience has been that if done properly, holding the gun firmly in the strong side hand (including gripping the trigger solidly with the index finger), my control is much better.  I operate only the hammer with the weak side hand, but I position that hand by a finger or two lightly touching the front of the trigger guard.  I find there is much better grip and muzzle control than having to deal with trigger pull movement with the index finger of the same hand that is trying to positively grip the pistol and control muzzle movement. 

 

 Try holding your locked, extended arm rock solid without slight wrist motion while quickly moving your trigger finger to match your trigger pull.   It's even difficult to do it with your arm resting on a table.  Anatomically, there has to be at least some wrist motion when the trigger finger moves, because the pulling/extending index finger tendons pass through/across the wrist bones.  And it doesn't take a lot of wrist rotation to move the bullet off target. I find I can hold much more solidly with a full four-finger grip that doesn't have to move.   

 

Proper SH essentially eliminates trigger pull as a shooting variable.  It does require practice and careful attention,  to avoid unintended or improperly timed discharges that end up between targets. 

 

That's what works best for me.  It sounds like others differ.  I don't think I'll change back to conventional firing, as long as the rules permit SH.  

 

Everyone is different.  If it works for you, stick with it.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

 

My experience

When the argument begins with that caveat...

I will take Doc Shapiro everytime.

Doc takes every point of debate and uses scientific method to determine if X or Y is actually faster, more efficient or effective.

 

He doesn't base it on opinion, experience or feelings.  But real world testing with multiple world class shooters.

 

Doing something one way or the other "may" be faster for you or me.

But if Doc says, with all factors being equal, method X is faster than Y - I assure you it is.

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

 

When the argument begins with that caveat...

I will take Doc Shapiro everytime.

Doc takes every point of debate and uses scientific method to determine if X or Y is actually faster, more efficient or effective.

 

He doesn't base it on opinion, experience or feelings.  But real world testing with multiple world class shooters.

 

Doing something one way or the other "may" be faster for you or me.

But if Doc says, with all factors being equal, method X is faster than Y - I assure you it is.

That little “all factors being equal” part is where things get dicey. The problem is, all factors are never equal because we are involving the human element and different people. My world record duelist run was done by slip hammering, does that mean slip hammering is the fastest? Maybe, maybe not. 

[J-BAR #18287]

 

My world record duelist run was done by slip hammering.

 

Wow!  Oh, to have fingers and thumbs that were just capable of slip hammering one-handed at all, much less at that speed.  My hat is off to you, Pard!  

[Dusty Devil Dale]

 

When the argument begins with that caveat...

I will take Doc Shapiro everytime.

Doc takes every point of debate and uses scientific method to determine if X or Y is actually faster, more efficient or effective.

 

He doesn't base it on opinion, experience or feelings.  But real world testing with multiple world class shooters.

 

Doing something one way or the other "may" be faster for you or me.

But if Doc says, with all factors being equal, method X is faster than Y - I assure you it is.

Wow!  Was it an "argument" ?

Hope I didn't offend you or Doc by expressing my opinions. 

 

(But  I do believe there are a lot of championship shooters who slip hammer, for what it's worth.)

[Dusty Devil Dale]

 

That little “all factors being equal” part is where things get dicey. The problem is, all factors are never equal because we are involving the human element and different people. My world record duelist run was done by slip hammering, does that mean slip hammering is the fastest? Maybe, maybe not. 

I'm curious.  I've never seen a Duelist slip hammer.  How do you do it, hold the trigger down and work the hammer with the thumb of the same hand?  I can see where releasing the hammer could cause less movement than trigger pulls, but I can't imagine being able to do it rapidly.   I'd like to see it sometime.  

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

 

Wow!  Was it an "argument" ?

Hope I didn't offend you or Doc by expressing my opinions. 

 

(But  I do believe there are a lot of championship shooters who slip hammer, for what it's worth.)

Not an argument in any manner.

Just a discussion with differing positions.  Meant nothing adversarial.

 

And when I say Ill always take Docs position; it just means that I know his dedication to honestly questioning any held opinion.  Even his own.

 

Doc will take on a topic and analyze it.

And after he does; you can be assured that the result is accurate and unbiased. 

Now Smokestack is completely correct about his skills slip hammering; and there are, of course, ALWAYS exceptions to the rule.

 

But if a shooter asks - is (sliphammering), (97 vs SxS), (crossdraw vs straighthang holsters), (etc, etc and so on) faster/ more accurate/ more successful...

Doc will be able to tell you; based on his tests and methodology, that in most cases X is superior to Y.

 

He will also be able to tell you under what conditions Y was better than X.

 

I have only had the opportunity to speak directly with Doc on one occasion; but I have read his book and when he has shared his methods for testing any given hypothesis - I have always been amazed at the thoroughness and effort.

 

We all have our opinions and insight on any given topic. 

Our personal experiences and observations.

And if you're anything like me; you share them freely (right or wrong).

 

Doc takes his efforts to the next level to figure out if those personal opinions and observations are across the board accurate or anomalies.

 

That's the reason I said; when someone says, "in my experience" and Doc says something contrary - I usually have to pretty much go with Doc.

 

Doesn't mean he is infallible or that there are not instances where someone, something is going to have results differing from the norm; but Doc generally gives a pretty good framework to work from.

 

 

[Dusty Devil Dale]

 

Not an argument in any manner.

Just a discussion with differing positions.  Meant nothing adversarial.

 

And when I say Ill always take Docs position; it just means that I know his dedication to honestly questioning any held opinion.  Even his own.

 

Doc will take on a topic and analyze it.

And after he does; you can be assured that the result is accurate and unbiased. 

Now Smokestack is completely correct about his skills slip hammering; and there are, of course, ALWAYS exceptions to the rule.

 

But if a shooter asks - is (sliphammering), (97 vs SxS), (crossdraw vs straighthang holsters), (etc, etc and so on) faster/ more accurate/ more successful...

Doc will be able to tell you; based on his tests and methodology, that in most cases X is superior to Y.

 

He will also be able to tell you under what conditions Y was better than X.

 

I have only had the opportunity to speak directly with Doc on one occasion; but I have read his book and when he has shared his methods for testing any given hypothesis - I have always been amazed at the thoroughness and effort.

 

We all have our opinions and insight on any given topic. 

Our personal experiences and observations.

And if you're anything like me; you share them freely (right or wrong).

 

Doc takes his efforts to the next level to figure out if those personal opinions and observations are across the board accurate or anomalies.

 

That's the reason I said; when someone says, "in my experience" and Doc says something contrary - I usually have to pretty much go with Doc.

 

Doesn't mean he is infallible or that there are not instances where someone, something is going to have results differing from the norm; but Doc generally gives a pretty good framework to work from.

 

 

Fair enough. But do keep in mind that there are a lot of real smart people in this world, and most of them are analytical and careful about forming their opinions and conclusions.  Sometimes, those analyses can differ from preaccepted and published norms.  That's how new innovations happen.   Just ask Christopher Columbus, Isack Newton or John Browning.  I am sure Doc would agree with that.