WTC

[Tequila Shooter]

The stage reads to engage the 4 pistol targets in a progressive sweep.  With the first pistol engage the first 3 targets, holster, move to the SG then rifle (further down the stage).  When finished the rifle come back to the pistol targets and finish the sweep with the second pistol.

A cowboy came up who was shooting GF.  They engaged the first 4 targets then laid their pistols on the window table that was there, then went to the SG and rifle.  When finished the rifle came back and finished the pistol targets finishing the sweep.

A member of the posse brought up that the pistols were left in the window and after discussion it was ruled that since it was GF and the pistols were pointed down range with the hammers down that it was OK.

Is that right? I thought he should have holstered them and then re-draw them when he came back.  I wasn't sure but since it was brought up, talked about, and agreed on I was satisfied.  But was that the right call? 

[Equanimous Phil]

 

 

I thought he should have holstered them and then re-draw them when he came back.

 

SHB p.7: A Gunfighter may not holster revolvers with the intent to engage another revolver sequence.

 

 

A member of the posse brought up that the pistols were left in the window and after discussion it was ruled that since it was GF and the pistols were pointed down range with the hammers down that it was OK.

 

Also p.7:

Stage design may allow a competitor shooting Gunfighter style to stage or restage revolvers between target sequences. If the shooter’s hands are otherwise constrained (e.g., rolling the dice between revolver sequences), the revolvers must be drawn and shot one at a time (double duelist) unless they can be safely staged rather than holstered. In this case, both revolvers may be employed at the same time for the first five rounds, safely restaged, and then employed at the same time again for the second five rounds.

 

==> Good call!

If there haven't been a possibility to stage the revolvers he had to draw just the first revolver, re-holster it, shoot SG and rifle, then shoot second revolver with second hand (double duelist)

 

[Equanimous Phil]

 

With the first pistol engage the first 3 targets, holster, move to the SG then rifle (further down the stage).  When finished the rifle come back to the pistol targets and finish the sweep with the second pistol.

A cowboy came up who was shooting GF.  They engaged the first 4 targets then laid their pistols on the window table that was there, then went to the SG and rifle.

 

Is that a typo with the "3" and "4" targets? Else, there's a P involved somehow (but I have to admit that I don't really understand those sequences of the revolver targets...)

 

Equanimous

[Tequila Shooter]

Yes it was a typo.  He engaged P1, P2, P3 then came back and finished the progression with 1 shot on P3 and 4 shots on P4.  Sorry for the confusion and thanks for the clarification.

 

@Equanimous Phil

[Flying W Ramrod]

No call. Gunfighters have the option of pulling both, restaging on prop or taking them to the next position and back, or shooting double duelist. Providing there is a place to stage them.

[Cemetery]

.

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

Good post!!

 

Rance 

Thinkin' I didn't know this rule on a gunfighter..

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

Ahhhh, while the shooter is shooting gunfighter the stage instructions say,  "With the first pistol engage the first 3 targets, holster, move to the SG then rifle (further down the stage).  When finished the rifle come back to the pistol targets and finish the sweep with the second pistol".  The instructions override the gunfighter option mentioned. The stage should have been shot as double dualist.

 

SHB also says,  'Stage instructions that specify separate revolvers such as “first pistol/second pistol,” “left revolver/right revolver,” or “with each handgun” are interpreted as “1st five shots/2nd five shots” when shooting Gunfighter style'.

 

So failure to follow stage instructions = P

And to get wonky failure to holster the first pistol at the end of the first shooting string = P

The shooter didn't have a choice on how to shoot it. The stage instructions told him how.

Ike

[Dusty Devil Dale]

 

No call. Gunfighters have the option of pulling both, restaging on prop or taking them to the next position and back, or shooting double duelist. Providing there is a place to stage them.

Agree.  The rules are pretty clear.

Double duelist would have been easiest, but what the shooter did was also correct, as long as the hammers were down on empty cylinders.  No call. 

[McCandless]

 

Ahhhh, while the shooter is shooting gunfighter the stage instructions say,  "With the first pistol engage the first 3 targets, holster, move to the SG then rifle (further down the stage).  When finished the rifle come back to the pistol targets and finish the sweep with the second pistol".  The instructions override the gunfighter option mentioned. The stage should have been shot as double dualist.

 

SHB also says,  'Stage instructions that specify separate revolvers such as “first pistol/second pistol,” “left revolver/right revolver,” or “with each handgun” are interpreted as “1st five shots/2nd five shots” when shooting Gunfighter style'.

 

So failure to follow stage instructions = P

And to get wonky failure to holster the first pistol at the end of the first shooting string = P

The shooter didn't have a choice on how to shoot it. The stage instructions told him how.

Ike

 

o When a stage calls for 10 revolver rounds in a single sequence or the use of only one revolver for the stage, the Gunfighter may draw both revolvers and engage the targets. The Gunfighter shall shoot the targets in exactly the same sequence as prescribed in the stage scenario.

SHB pg 7

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

 

Ahhhh, while the shooter is shooting gunfighter the stage instructions say,  "With the first pistol engage the first 3 targets, holster, move to the SG then rifle (further down the stage).  When finished the rifle come back to the pistol targets and finish the sweep with the second pistol".  The instructions override the gunfighter option mentioned. The stage should have been shot as double dualist.

 

SHB also says,  'Stage instructions that specify separate revolvers such as “first pistol/second pistol,” “left revolver/right revolver,” or “with each handgun” are interpreted as “1st five shots/2nd five shots” when shooting Gunfighter style'.

 

So failure to follow stage instructions = P

And to get wonky failure to holster the first pistol at the end of the first shooting string = P

The shooter didn't have a choice on how to shoot it. The stage instructions told him how.

Ike

 

That 2nd statement:

Stage instructions that specify separate revolvers such as “first pistol/second pistol,” “left revolver/right revolver,” or “with each handgun” are interpreted as “1st five shots/2nd five shots” when shooting Gunfighter style.

SHB p.7

...specifically overrides the stage instructions.

REF also GF regs previously quoted re "holstering" when shooting "GF-style".

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

 

Agree.  The rules are pretty clear.

Double duelist would have been easiest, but what the shooter did was also correct, as long as the hammers were down on empty cylinders fired chambers No call. 

 

How would "Double Duelist" have been "easier"?
Shooting "GF-style", both revolvers would be holstered at the end of the stage (off the clock).

 

 

[Dusty Devil Dale]

 

 

How would "Double Duelist" have been "easier"?
Shooting "GF-style", both revolvers would be holstered at the end of the stage (off the clock).

 

 

I was thinking the first pistol could be drawn, shooter fires the first 5, then reholstered #1 on the fly to the shotgun.  Second pistol could be drawn on the fly during return from the rifle, as long as it is not cocked before 45 degrees, stays within 170, and is not cocked until shooter is stationary.  Then 2nd can be fired and reholstered off the clock.  That seems simpler and faster than trying to remember which gun has 3 rounds, versus 2 rounds on reengaging.  And saves the time required to re-pick up both pistols on the clock.  Plus the risk of dropping a gun seems less.  I could be wrong.  

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Do you shoot GF?

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

 

I was thinking the first pistol could be drawn, shooter fires the first 5, then reholstered #1 on the fly to the shotgun.  Second pistol could be drawn on the fly during return from the rifle, as long as it is not cocked before 45 degrees, stays within 170, and is not cocked until shooter is stationary.  Then 2nd can be fired and reholstered off the clock.  That seems simpler and faster than trying to remember which gun has 3 rounds, versus 2 rounds on reengaging.  And saves the time required to re-pick up both pistols on the clock.  Plus the risk of dropping a gun seems less.  I could be wrong.  

It could be, unless you are so used to practicing and shooting gunfighter. It is far easier for me to remember to not cock my first gun after firing the 4th round and stage it with the 2nd pistol after the 5th shot, again not cocking, then it is to remember to not pull both pistols at the same time. How do I know this? Every single time I shoot plainsmen, I try to grab both pistols despite telling both myself not to and asking the TO to stop me before I do. Happens every damn time. You think I would learn eventually, but I still haven't. I think I might have to get a special crossdraw rig for plainsmen only. Maybe that will help

[Springfield Slim SASS #24733]

Special crossdraw rig, sounds like a plan.

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

 

  That seems simpler and faster than trying to remember which gun has 3 rounds, versus 2 rounds on reengaging.  And saves the time required to re-pick up both pistols on the clock.  Plus the risk of dropping a gun seems less.  I could be wrong.  

Nope, both guns drawn and staged, no risk of dropping gun trying to find holster on the fly or safely drawing the other on the way back. I usually start with left, real easy to remember right when I get back to window. Simpler and faster for me. Good Luck

[Riverboat Red, SASS #71733]

 

I was thinking the first pistol could be drawn, shooter fires the first 5, then reholstered #1 on the fly to the shotgun.  Second pistol could be drawn on the fly during return from the rifle, as long as it is not cocked before 45 degrees, stays within 170, and is not cocked until shooter is stationary.  Then 2nd can be fired and reholstered off the clock.  That seems simpler and faster than trying to remember which gun has 3 rounds, versus 2 rounds on reengaging.  And saves the time required to re-pick up both pistols on the clock.  Plus the risk of dropping a gun seems less.  I could be wrong.  

Because we're Gunfighters, dammit!

A. I can shoot 5 GF style faster than duelist.

2. We're Gunfighters, dammit! I have been known to shoot 5 from position 1, stage pistols at pos. 1, run to pos. 2 and shoot rifle/shotgun, run back to pos. 1 to retrieve pistols and proceed to pos. 3 to shoot last 5. Is it faster or "better"? Maybe not but we're Gunfighters, dammit!

[Captain Bill Burt]

 

Do you shoot GF?

LOL.

[Tequila Shooter]

Thanks to all the Jedi's out there, you guys are in a galaxy far far away.  

[John Barleycorn, SASS #76982]

STOP writing stages with first pistol, second pistol, that terminology is unnecessary, and leads to bad calls. 

[Tequila Shooter]

 

STOP writing stages with first pistol, second pistol, that terminology is unnecessary, and leads to bad calls. 

 

I didn't write the stage, I merely wrote in my original post the way the stage was written.   No reason to get awnry about it.

[M.T Chambers, SASS#76185]

 

The stage reads to engage the 4 pistol targets in a progressive sweep.  With the first pistol  five rounds engage the first 3 targets, holster, move to the SG then rifle (further down the stage).  When finished the rifle come back to the pistol targets and finish the sweep with the second pistol five rounds. 

...

 

As long as there is a place to safely stage the revolvers the GF should be given the option to decide whether they want to shoot it Gunfighter or Double Duelist.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

 

 

As long as there is a place to safely stage the revolvers the GF should be given the option to decide whether they want to shoot it Gunfighter or Double Duelist.

 

SASS GF regs specify exactly that.

 

[John Barleycorn, SASS #76982]

 

 

I didn't write the stage, I merely wrote in my original post the way the stage was written.   No reason to get awnry about it.

 I didn’t say you wrote the stage, so no reason to be unsettled. I was making a general statement about poor stage writing. 

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

so even though the stage instructions say first pistol and then second pistol and the shooters handbook covers that for gunfighters, the other rule over rides it?  Seems like a conflict in the rules.

Ike

[John Barleycorn, SASS #76982]

 

so even though the stage instructions say first pistol and then second pistol and the shooters handbook covers that for gunfighters, the other rule over rides it?  Seems like a conflict in the rules.

Ike

No, it’s just bad stage writing. Simply put, write first five shots, second five shots. 

[Marauder SASS #13056]

I don't think we need to require stages to be written for just one categories (BW & GF). 

 

The book clarifies that saying first and second pistol  that for GF style, it means first 5 shots and second 5 shots.

 

And yes,m I've experimented with GF long before it was an allowed category.  And have worked with and shot with several top gunfighters included world champions.  And I encourage and support that style as it is a fun challenge.

[John Barleycorn, SASS #76982]

 

I don't think we need to require stages to be written for just one categories (BW & GF). 

 

The book clarifies that saying first and second pistol  that for GF style, it means first 5 shots and second 5 shots.

 

And yes,m I've experimented with GF long before it was an allowed category.  And have worked with and shot with several top gunfighters included world champions.  And I encourage and support that style as it is a fun challenge.

Marauder, the problem is the folks who don’t read the rule book and call P’s for imaginary procedurals. 

[Dusty Devil Dale]

 

Do you shoot GF?

I can't hold a screwdriver or button my sleeve with my left hand.  Shooting left handed seems like another galaxy. 

But I do write and set up matches and stages that Gunfighters have to shoot, so I make a point to talk with them afterwards for feedback, and I'm finding the input here very interesting.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

 

I can't hold a screwdriver or button my sleeve with my left hand. 

 

I know the feeling about the screwdriver and such.

I can't brush my teeth or cut my steak with a knife using my left (or weak) hand.

I'm fairly clumsy with my left hand UNTIL ya put a pistol in it.

 

Ironically, holding, cocking, shooting and reholstering a revolver left handed came natural for me.

 

..........Widder

 

 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

PLUS ONE to Barleycorn and PWB

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

'No, it’s just bad stage writing. Simply put, write first five shots, second five shots'.  Or the stage writer wanted the gunfighter to split his pistols and shoot double dualist!

I still say the rules for GF contradict each other.  One says you can do what the shooter did, and the other says based on the write up he should have shot the first pistol and then the second.

Ike

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

 

'No, it’s just bad stage writing. Simply put, write first five shots, second five shots'.  Or the stage writer wanted the gunfighter to split his pistols and shoot double dualist!

I still say the rules for GF contradict each other.  One says you can do what the shooter did, and the other says based on the write up he should have shot the first pistol and then the second.

Ike

 

If a stage writer writes a stage specifically requiring a GF to shoot DD for no reason, THAT is contrary to SASS rules.

Revolvers are drawn and used in accordance with the shooter’s category

SHB p.15 - "Firearm Conventions"

 

Stage instructions that specify separate revolvers such as “first pistol/second pistol,” “left revolver/right revolver,” or “with each handgun” are interpreted as “1st five shots/2nd five shots” when shooting Gunfighter style.

SHB p.7

 

This specifically overrides the stage instructions.

 

 

[Dusty Devil Dale]

 

 

I know the feeling about the screwdriver and such.

I can't brush my teeth or cut my steak with a knife using my left (or weak) hand.

I'm fairly clumsy with my left hand UNTIL ya put a pistol in it.

 

Ironically, holding, cocking, shooting and reholstering a revolver left handed came natural for me.

 

..........Widder

 

 

Thanks for the encouragement.  Maybe I'll do some practicing, find some coaching, and give GF a try.  If would be hard to do a lot worse than I do now.   Two-handed, I'm lucky to be in the top 20% in bigger (Regional) matches.  Thx.