357 loads

[Hendo]

I'm reloading 357 with Missouri Bullets coated 125 grn RNFP bullets. They load at an OAL of 1.50 which worried me a bit, but the run fine through the '73 Uberti. I'm using 3.2 grns of HP38 and they seem to shoot pretty good out to 20 -25 ft (an indoor range is the only place close enough to test at). The only down side is that they are a bit dirty and I'm getting a bit of powder residue. I'm thinking of bumping up a half grain. 

What are y'all loading at? I'm kind of committed to the HP38 as I still have about 3/4 pound of that and then there's the 4 pounds of W231 sitting on the bench.

There isn't really a huge amount of info for this.

 

Any help, advice, recipes, or if I need to, other powder suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks Y'all

[Cliff Hanger #3720LR]

If you are looking for more data, HP-38 is rebranded Winchester 231 powder.

ADI powder company in Australia is the manufacturer.

 

http://www.adi-powders.com.au/powder-equivalents/

 

Cliff Hanger #3720

18 years FFL commercial reloader for CAS shooters. (Cowboy Cartridge Co)

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

HP 38 and WW231 are the same powder.

OLG 

[Hendo]

 

HP 38 and WW231 are the same powder.

OLG 

Yup, I reload 38 Special and 45 ACP, which is why I have copious amounts of the stuff. 

I'm using a Lee turret press with the pro auto disc, so I'm trying to stay away from Trail Boss as I've heard it's a bit fluffy for my setup. 

[Roscoe Regulator]

 

Yup, I reload 38 Special and 45 ACP, which is why I have copious amounts of the stuff. 

I'm using a Lee turret press with the pro auto disc, so I'm trying to stay away from Trail Boss as I've heard it's a bit fluffy for my setup. 

I load 125 gr 38 Specials with 3.0 Trailboss and that same powder measure with no issues.  .357 rifle rounds are loaded with Trailboss on my Hornady LnL AP, which works well too, although I remove the baffle from the hopper..

 

As far as loads being dirty, welcome to CAS.

[Rye Miles #13621]

I load 125 gr .38's with 3.6 grs of Tite-Group, I think that would be good for .357 also.

[Roscoe Regulator]

 

I load 125 gr .38's with 3.6 grs of Tite-Group, I think that would be good for .357 also.

There would be no visual on the powder charge though.

[Rye Miles #13621]

 

There would be no visual on the powder charge though.

 I load on a Dillon 550 and I check the cases periodically and also measure every 10th or 15th round. No problems here!

[Go West]

4.6 gr. of 231 in a .357 case gives 1,052 fps. 

3.4 gr. in a .38 Special case gives 693 fps. 

[Outrider Outlaw]

We're using 3.6 grains of HP38/Win231 with both 130 grain RNFP and 125 grain TCFP.  No problems.  Being using this formula for about 7 years now.

[Dusty Devil Dale]

Not too many folks load for the Uberti '73 using  . 357 cases.  With 125 gn bullets, there is plenty of case length in a . 38 sp case to hang onto the bullet, if crimped properly.   I load 130 gn flat nose-round bullets over 3.1 gn of Titegroup in 

. 38 sp cases.    It produces about 5% above SASS required power factor, which is where I like it.  For heavier knock downs, it usually works, but I also carry some 158gn loads for that occasional very heavy or further out kd target. 

[McCandless]

No need to load two different cases.  .38 Special will work just fine in a Uberti '73    But you may be running a little light on the powder.  You want a bit of recoil on the revolvers to give your brain "feedback" to get moving onto the next target.  Otherwise, many shooters wait for the "clang" before moving.  The slower the bullet is moving, the more lag time.  Practice moving on to the next target without any wait... once you pull the trigger, there's nothing more you can do on that shot.

[bgavin]

OP,

Running your numbers through Quickload, you are getting around 6714 psi and 94% burn.
This load fills about 27% of your case volume.
Low pressure and incomplete burning will give you dirty cases.

I started with Missouri 125gr LRNFP.
These are BHN=12 which is much harder than the pressure of your load, which is around BHN=5 (pure lead).
You will probably experience some leading with this combination, as there is insufficient pressure to obdurate the Missouri bullet.

I would up the powder charge a bit.
4.2 grains will take your pressures up to 10,743, and keep your velocity just under the 1,000 fps SASS limit.
These should be checked with a chrony if you have access to one.
This increased load is still only 35% of the case space, so be wary of over charging.

I set my Missouri bullets aside, and had Ringer Bullets do a custom run of soft-cast (BHN=9) for the above reasons.
The Missouri are better suited with higher pressure loads.
 

[Hendo]

 

I load 125 gr 38 Specials with 3.0 Trailboss and that same powder measure with no issues.  .357 rifle rounds are loaded with Trailboss on my Hornady LnL AP, which works well too, although I remove the baffle from the hopper..

 

As far as loads being dirty, welcome to CAS.

Thanks, and yeah, I'm getting used to the dirty. 

 

 I load on a Dillon 550 and I check the cases periodically and also measure every 10th or 15th round. No problems here!

Now you're just boastin'. 

[Hendo]

 

Not too many folks load for the Uberti '73 using  . 357 cases.  With 125 gn bullets, there is plenty of case length in a . 38 sp case to hang onto the bullet, if crimped properly.   I load 130 gn flat nose-round bullets over 3.1 gn of Titegroup in 

. 38 sp cases.    It produces about 5% above SASS required power factor, which is where I like it.  For heavier knock downs, it usually works, but I also carry some 158gn loads for that occasional very heavy or further out kd target. 

I gotta be completely honest and come clean here. I bought my first Cimarron Model P .357 about 5 years ago. I had always wanted a "cowboy" gun and with factory magnum rounds, that loud boom and big flame makes me giggle like a school girl. Not to mention rattling the tacticool kids in the next lane. 

 

No need to load two different cases.  .38 Special will work just fine in a Uberti '73    But you may be running a little light on the powder.  You want a bit of recoil on the revolvers to give your brain "feedback" to get moving onto the next target.  Otherwise, many shooters wait for the "clang" before moving.  The slower the bullet is moving, the more lag time.  Practice moving on to the next target without any wait... once you pull the trigger, there's nothing more you can do on that shot.

That's something that hadn't occurred to me. I'm used to shooting 158 grn in 38 and 357. I also shoot 230 grn 45ACP. I'm not sure the recoil part of the equation ever entered my mind as I think I was moving on the bang and not waiting for the bang (which I ain't sure I always can hear). Thanks for that, I'll have to pay attention at my next match.

 

OP,

Running your numbers through Quickload, you are getting around 6714 psi and 94% burn.
This load fills about 27% of your case volume.
Low pressure and incomplete burning will give you dirty cases.

I started with Missouri 125gr LRNFP.
These are BHN=12 which is much harder than the pressure of your load, which is around BHN=5 (pure lead).
You will probably experience some leading with this combination, as there is insufficient pressure to obdurate the Missouri bullet.

I would up the powder charge a bit.
4.2 grains will take your pressures up to 10,743, and keep your velocity just under the 1,000 fps SASS limit.
These should be checked with a chrony if you have access to one.
This increased load is still only 35% of the case space, so be wary of over charging.

I set my Missouri bullets aside, and had Ringer Bullets do a custom run of soft-cast (BHN=9) for the above reasons.
The Missouri are better suited with higher pressure loads.
 

Thanks, this is something I didn't know. Is leading still an issue with the coated bullets? 

I had to look up "obdurate", but I'm still not sure what you mean by that. I have an idea, but I'm not quite sure.

Is Quickload pretty accurate? I don't really know what that is or where to find it. It sounds like a great tool that I probably should have.

I used to have a couple of different PC dynos to help me dial in variables on engines. Is it something like that?

[bgavin]

Quickload is just a tool, and a somewhat obsolete one at that.
It does not have a lot of the current powders, nor will it in the future.

I contacted the author about why IMR Red was excluded... the powder makers won't provide the info any more.
Obduration is the sealing of the pressure side of the bullet in the chamber and barrel.
There is a direct relationship between pressure and the lead hardness (BHN).

I contacted a few manufacturers and was given this data:

• BHN= 9 Desperado Bullets (uncoated)
• BHN= 9 Ringer Bullets (Hi-Tek) by Special Order
• BHN=10 Big Lube Bullets, Outlaw Bullets, Stateline Bullets
• BHN=12 Missouri Bullets
• BHN=13 Bear Creek Supply
• BHN=14 Gallant Bullets
• BHN=16 Acme, Badman, Bayou, Chey-Cast, Scarlett, SNS, Stateline
• BHN=18 Falcon Bullets, Missouri Bullets
• BHN=19 Cast Performance
• BHN=24 Oregon Trail laser cast

• BHN= 9 is 11,518 psi
• BHN=10 is 12,798 psi
• BHN=12 is 15,358 psi
• BHN=13 is 16,637 psi
• BHN=14 is 17,917 psi
• BHN=16 is 20,477 psi
• BHN=18 is 23,036 psi
• BHN=19 is 24,316 psi
• BHN=24 is 30,715 psi

The Brinell Hardness Number has a direct correlation between the softness of a lead bullet vs the required cartridge pressure in PSI.

When the BHN is a match for the PSI, the lead bullet will obdurate (seal) effectively in the barrel.  This is the ideal condition for minimal barrel leading and blow-by.

Hi-Tek offers advantages in cleaner burning, no smoke from burned up bullet lube.
It also reduces your exposure to touching uncoated lead.

The Catch-22 of cowboy loads is juggling the low pressure / low velocity loads with appropriate lead hardness, while keeping under the max SASS velocity, and being able to knock down those targets that must be knocked down.

The ideal load is one that fills the cartridge case as much as possible, burns clean, and has a bullet hardness that matches the pressure produced.
This gets more difficult when using lighter loads for reduced recoil.

After much calculating and spreadsheet work, I worked the above out as 38SP, Trail Boss at 5.09 grains, Federal #100 primer, Starline brass, Ringer Bullets LTCFP 105gr soft-cast at BHN=9.  This gives very low recoil for my wife, 11,513 psi, 978 fps (calculated), 94% filled case, 100% burn, 1.8 lbs of recoil in a 2.8 lb Vaquero.

[Hendo]

Thanks for the explanation, I sort of had a handle on the concept, but I like having the details. This is one of my pastimes that I want to make sure I get right so I don't hurt other people or myself. 

 

Fishing on the other hand, just give me a pole, some bait and a mountain stream and I'm good. It don't matter if I catch anything or not.  

[Dusty Devil Dale]

 

No need to load two different cases.  .38 Special will work just fine in a Uberti '73    But you may be running a little light on the powder.  You want a bit of recoil on the revolvers to give your brain "feedback" to get moving onto the next target.  Otherwise, many shooters wait for the "clang" before moving.  The slower the bullet is moving, the more lag time.  Practice moving on to the next target without any wait... once you pull the trigger, there's nothing more you can do on that shot.

Good advice.  The really tough thing for me to deal with has been my tendency to keep the rhythm of the shooter immediately ahead of me.  I have to consciously place myself behind a fast shooter to turn good times. 

[Roscoe Regulator]

 

Yup, I reload 38 Special and 45 ACP, which is why I have copious amounts of the stuff. 

I'm using a Lee turret press with the pro auto disc, so I'm trying to stay away from Trail Boss as I've heard it's a bit fluffy for my setup. 

You should find Trailboss easy enough. One accommodation (pet theory) I came up with is to avoid irregular aperture shapes that could cause bridging, so I avoid the adjustable charge bar for small charges of powders with relatively large granules. The .71 cc disk gives me the 3.0 grains TB I want for 38 Special, 125 gr.