I have a military question

[Alpo]

As I understand it, if you are in a room doing whatever, and a superior officer walks into the room you are supposed to come to attention.

 

The officer then puts you at ease, or as you were, or whatever.

 

If an officer superior to him enters, you again come to attention. Right? You (enlisted man) are working away at your typewriter, and the captain walks in, so you pop to. He tells you AS YOU WERE, and you sit back down and go back to work. Then the colonel comes in and you come back to your feet.

 

But how about if that second officer, while superior to you, is subordinate to the one that told you to go back to work? The colonel comes in, tells you AS YOU WERE, and then the captain comes in, while the colonel is still there.

 

Do you snap to attention for the captain?

 

In the story I'm reading these two Marines - a corporal and a lance corporal - have just entered the Oval Office. They pop to and salute, and POTUS (the corporal's uncle and the lance corporal's father) smiles and puts them at ease. Then as they are catching up (he hasn't seen either of them for over a year), the Commandant of the Marine Corps comes in, and the two Marines snap to again.

 

Now, I understand WHY they did it. Reflex, upon seeing all those stars.

 

But I was just curious as to whether they were correct to do it, since POTUS is Commander in Chief, and thus outranks the Commandant, and he had already put them at ease?

 

The things you think of, when it's late and you should be in bed.

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

Remain seated, but make damned sure your posture and uniform are correct.

[Sedalia Dave]

In the Navy you only came to attention for your Commanding Officer and his superiors. Normally you only did so upon your first encounter of the day. The remainder of the day you speak when spoken to. For example a Yeoman that worked in the outer office would call "Attention on Deck" when the CO arrived for duty. The remainder of the day as the CO came and went you would only speak when spoken to. Many COs would tell their office staff to dispense with the "Attention on Deck" announcement and to just greet them with a simple "good morning" with their rank.

 

All other officers in the command below them you just acknowledged their entry into the room.

 

If you were working, it would depend on what you were doing if you were expected to come to attention or not.

 

If the Wing Commander entered the office then "Attention on Deck" would be called out by the first person to see them enter the room.

 

As I never was around commands where Admirals could be encountered on a regular basis I have no first hand knowledge but were one to enter my shop "Attention on Deck" would have been my response. I am sure that in places like the Pentagon there is a very detailed list of how different ranking officers from different branches of hte service are greeted when they enter a room.

[Ozark Huckleberry]

Echo what Sedalia Dave said, and a little more regarding rank etiquette, as written and as practiced.

 

If there is a group of service people -- indoors or out, the group 'carries' the rank of the highest-ranking officer. Say a major, a captain, a lieutenant, and a sergeant were walking along, not in formation. Coming from the opposite direction was a colonel. The entire group would 'render honors' as they passed -- that is, salute and greet. But if a major was coming from the other direction, the captain, lieutenant, and sergeant would not be required to render, because they were with a major.

 

Another example -- a squad under arms was marching in formation and passed a general. The leader of the squad would render honors, not the group. But if that group was marching as an escort to the U.S. flag (e.g., a parade), the general would render honors to the flag, but the group would not respond --  they were with the flag.

 

On the ship, our work spaces were just a couple of frames aft of flag country (that's where the admiral hangs out). Somehow, the admiral discovered our division ran without drama, fuss, or a lot of noise, and we always had hot coffee, so he decided that a corner in the back of our shop was a good place to hang out when he wanted to escape from his staff for a while. I talked to his loop, and directed the guys to set him up a comfortable chair, keep his coffee cup clean, and otherwise basically ignore him unless he specifically asked about something. The whole cruise, he'd come and go like a ghost; sometimes we'd just catch a glimpse of him as he came through the door and headed toward the back of the shop.

 

Edit to add:

On re-reading your original post, you said the two marines, 'snapped to.' It would be an appropriate courtesy for them to stand on the entry of an officer senior to them, but not to call the room to attention since there was already someone senior to the commandant in the room.

[Pat Riot]

 

In the Navy you only came to attention for your Commanding Officer and his superiors. Normally you only did so upon your first encounter of the day. The remainder of the day you speak when spoken to. For example a Yeoman that worked in the outer office would call "Attention on Deck" when the CO arrived for duty. The remainder of the day as the CO came and went you would only speak when spoken to. Many COs would tell their office staff to dispense with the "Attention on Deck" announcement and to just greet them with a simple "good morning" with their rank.

 

All other officers in the command below them you just acknowledged their entry into the room.

 

If you were working, it would depend on what you were doing if you were expected to come to attention or not.

 

If the Wing Commander entered the office then "Attention on Deck" would be called out by the first person to see them enter the room.

 

As I never was around commands where Admirals could be encountered on a regular basis I have no first hand knowledge but were one to enter my shop "Attention on Deck" would have been my response. I am sure that in places like the Pentagon there is a very detailed list of how different ranking officers from different branches of hte service are greeted when they enter a room.

What he said ^^^
 

Also, you only saluted outdoors and only when covered (wearing a hat). 
 

 

[Charlie Harley, #14153]

The others gave good responses, with the theme being showing respect within the context of the situation. 

 

Many moons ago I was a 1LT running the control tower of our battalion gunnery range. There were maybe ten in the tower, and I was the “ranking” officer.

 

Unannounced, the division commander, a 2 star general, walked in.  No heads up or escort from battalion staff. Apparently the general was prone to do stuff like this. 

 

Anyway, my detail was quite consumed with running the range safely and we had active aircraft on the fire table. I walked to the general, stood at attention and greeted him. He asked my name and what battalion I was from. 

 

He then put me at ease and asked for a tour. Without disrupting ops, my NCO and I gave him a tour, while the radio guy called the battalion TOC to let them know what was happening. 

 

The CO was there in minutes. At no time did anyone but me and the NCOIC change our rhythm. All was good, and the general thanked me as he left. 

[Alpo]

"Also, you only saluted outdoors and only when covered (wearing a hat). "

 

Good point. (Or when under arms).

 

I need to go re-read and see if they did, in fact, salute, or if I just inferred it.

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

 

"Also, you only saluted outdoors and only when covered (wearing a hat). "

 

Good point. (Or when under arms).

 

I need to go re-read and see if they did, in fact, salute, or if I just inferred it.

That’s Marines.

[Alpo]

The characters in the book ARE Marines.

 

 

And on that note, here's one that's tickled around in my brain since I first read it in one of the Honor Bound series.

 

Clete (Major, USMC) has flown back to Washington and gone to the OSS building, where he sees his immediate superior, bird Colonel - Graham? - also USMC, and salutes him (they are both in uniform, but they are also both indoors). Graham returns the salute by reflex, and then chews Clete out - OFFICERS OF THE NAVAL SERVICE DO NOT SALUTE INDOORS!

 

Weelll, not unless they're under arms. And Clete has a Mexican carry 45 under his tunic.

 

So my ponder - while Clete, who was armed, was correct in saluting, should Colonel Graham, who was not armed, have returned it?

 

Or would "under arms" only count if it was visible - carrying a rifle, or having a holstered pistol belted on outside his tunic?

 

 

[Trailrider #896]

I am about to take over as commander of a veterans' post (my third time in the barrel).  For the first time, will have a retired naval officer as senior vice-commander.  Now a few years ago, Congress authorized veterans to be allowed to salute during the National Anthem, and other appropriate times, even though not in uniform.  The Army and the Air Force veterans may do this if they so desire.  The Naval services (Navy, Marines and Coast Guard) do not allow this unless in uniform or "under arms".  I need to ask my new senior-vice what he will do.  Haven't really noticed other veteran members of the post who were in the naval services as to what they do. 

What say you Navy-types?

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

 

The characters in the book ARE Marines.

 

But the question is about “military”

[Cyrus Cassidy #45437]

No.  You "snap to" when an officer senior to EVERYONE in the room enters.

 

Additionally, if no officers are present, you call the room to "at ease" and everyone snaps to Parade Rest is an NCO senior to everyone in the room enters.

[Ozark Huckleberry]

 

I am about to take over as commander of a veterans' post (my third time in the barrel).  For the first time, will have a retired naval officer as senior vice-commander.  Now a few years ago, Congress authorized veterans to be allowed to salute during the National Anthem, and other appropriate times, even though not in uniform.  The Army and the Air Force veterans may do this if they so desire.  The Naval services (Navy, Marines and Coast Guard) do not allow this unless in uniform or "under arms".  I need to ask my new senior-vice what he will do.  Haven't really noticed other veteran members of the post who were in the naval services as to what they do. 

What say you Navy-types?

Context of the situation. In the presence of members of other services who do salute indoors or other situations where saluting is not required of members of the naval services, sailors and marines may join in saluting to avoid the ‘WTH’ perceptions of people who don’t know the guidelines. Kind of a ‘when in Rome’ approach. 
 

When it comes to rendering honors to the flag or the anthem, I’d rather be called out for showing too much respect, than not enough. 

[Henry T Harrison]

Just read the book 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

ALPO,

A Captain in the Navy is different than the Captain in the Army or Marines.

 

Actually, the Captain in the Navy is equivalent to a Bird Col. in the other services.

 

SO..... it depends which Captain walks in before the Colonel.   And if the Colonel ain't wearing a Bird, he is

of less rank than a Navy Captain.

 

Some of these 'exercises of respect in rank' are different depending upon locations, work functions, etc....

 

I worked directly for ComSubRon 18.   That was the Title of a Navy Captain who was designated 'Commandant'

of Sub Squadron 18 on the east coast.   His 'TITLE' carried mucho clout, probably more so than his

actual rank in the Navy.

When he entered our office, we quickly stood and greeted him with just a 'Good Morning/afternoon Sir'.

 

..........Widder

 

[Smoky Pistols]

Just read this and thought I'd share.  Sorry if it hijacks Alpo's thread.

 

http://www.military-money-matters.com/salute-the-flag.html

 

I think it's nice.  Since leaving the Army, I've always felt a little disrespectful honoring the US Flag and National Anthem by solely placing my hand on my heart.  I'll feel much better now though.

[Birdgun Quail, SASS #63663]

 

No.  You "snap to" when an officer senior to EVERYONE in the room enters.

 

Additionally, if no officers are present, you call the room to "at ease" and everyone snaps to Parade Rest is an NCO senior to everyone in the room enters.

A rare occurrence:

When I was a chief warrant officer (CW2), the Brigade Command Sergeant Major (CSM) walked into my HAWK battery maintenance shop.  My sergeant first class (SFC) shop foreman greeted the CSM and the CSM tore into my SFC for not calling out "at ease."  I step into view, and said "Welcome, Sergeant Major."  The CSM then insolently asked me, "Warrant Officer, what NCO rank couldn't you make that you went warrant officer?" 

I tore into the CSM.  I ordered him to leave my shop.  He argued, but eventually left.  The Brigade Commander and I had a two way conversation about tolerating insolence.  On the next visit to the battery, the Brigade Commander visited my shop, but not the CSM.

 

P.S.  There is nothing more obnoxious than a warrant officer with over 20.

 

.

[Sedalia Dave]

 

Just read this and thought I'd share.  Sorry if it hijacks Alpo's thread.

 

http://www.military-money-matters.com/salute-the-flag.html

 

I think it's nice.  Since leaving the Army, I've always felt a little disrespectful honoring the US Flag and National Anthem by solely placing my hand on my heart.  I'll feel much better now though.

 

As a Veteran I salute the flag. It is a great way for veterans and service members not in uniform to show their presence.

[Utah Bob #35998]

 

Just read this and thought I'd share.  Sorry if it hijacks Alpo's thread.

 

http://www.military-money-matters.com/salute-the-flag.html

 

I think it's nice.  Since leaving the Army, I've always felt a little disrespectful honoring the US Flag and National Anthem by solely placing my hand on my heart.  I'll feel much better now though.

The Navy disagrees. 
 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

 

The Navy disagrees. 
 

 

UB,

I was under the impression that the Navy was o.k. with 'rendering the salute' BUT the

Commandant of the Marine Corps was not o.k. with it for the Marines.

 

?

 

..........Widder

 

[Cyrus Cassidy #45437]

 

A rare occurrence:

When I was a chief warrant officer (CW2), the Brigade Command Sergeant Major (CSM) walked into my HAWK battery maintenance shop.  My sergeant first class (SFC) shop foreman greeted the CSM and the CSM tore into my SFC for not calling out "at ease."  I step into view, and said "Welcome, Sergeant Major."  The CSM then insolently asked me, "Warrant Officer, what NCO rank couldn't you make that you went warrant officer?" 

I tore into the CSM.  I ordered him to leave my shop.  He argued, but eventually left.  The Brigade Commander and I had a two way conversation about tolerating insolence.  On the next visit to the battery, the Brigade Commander visited my shop, but not the CSM.

 

P.S.  There is nothing more obnoxious than a warrant officer with over 20.

 

.

 

Agreed, "there is nothing more obnoxious than a warrant officer with over 20."  However, you outranked the CSM, pure and simple so he better darn well get over it.

[Utah Bob #35998]

 

 

Agreed, "there is nothing more obnoxious than a warrant officer with over 20."  However, you outranked the CSM, pure and simple so he better darn well get over it.

Some E9s are unaware that anyone below an O6 outranks them. Maybe because a lot of then work directly for Colonels.

Some reminded me of Colonels wives, who also though they outranked everyone.

[Birdgun Quail, SASS #63663]

 

Some E9s are unaware that anyone below an O6 outranks them. Maybe because a lot of then work directly for Colonels.

Some reminded me of Colonels wives, who also though they outranked everyone.

I had several good CSMs.  My last Battalion CSM helped me fill an NCO slot I needed.  The battalion was short several NCOs and one of my maintenance sections needed a staff sergeant (SSG).  At the time, I had a Specialist 5 (SP5) technically running the section but he wasn't up to the task and one of my SP4s was the informal leader doing the job.  I went to the CSM and explained my problem.  A week or so later, a SSG was assigned to us.  The other warrants in the battalion, who were also missing SSGs, asked me how I managed to get the first SSG to come in.  I told them I had "special influence."

 

 

.

[Utah Bob #35998]

 

I had several good CSMs.  My last Battalion CSM helped me fill an NCO slot I needed.  The battalion was short several NCOs and one of my maintenance sections needed a staff sergeant (SSG).  At the time, I had a Specialist 5 (SP5) technically running the section but he wasn't up to the task and one of my SP4s was the informal leader doing the job.  I went to the CSM and explained my problem.  A week or so later, a SSG was assigned to us.  The other warrants in the battalion, who were also missing SSGs, asked me how I managed to get the first SSG to come in.  I told them I had "special influence."

 

.

Note I said Some E9s. Most of them I worked with were seasoned professionals and a credit to their branch.

[Ramblin Gambler]

 

I am about to take over as commander of a veterans' post (my third time in the barrel).  For the first time, will have a retired naval officer as senior vice-commander.  Now a few years ago, Congress authorized veterans to be allowed to salute during the National Anthem, and other appropriate times, even though not in uniform.  The Army and the Air Force veterans may do this if they so desire.  The Naval services (Navy, Marines and Coast Guard) do not allow this unless in uniform or "under arms".  I need to ask my new senior-vice what he will do.  Haven't really noticed other veteran members of the post who were in the naval services as to what they do. 

What say you Navy-types?

 

Get a concealed carry permit and you'll always be under arms and able to salute.  Right? 

 

 

[Constable Nelson #11784]

 

Context of the situation. In the presence of members of other services who do salute indoors or other situations where saluting is not required of members of the naval services, sailors and marines may join in saluting to avoid the ‘WTH’ perceptions of people who don’t know the guidelines. Kind of a ‘when in Rome’ approach. 
 

When it comes to rendering honors to the flag or the anthem, I’d rather be called out for showing too much respect, than not enough. 

Absolutely!  I was the officer of a Ceremonial Guard at our Defence HQ in Canberra (Australia that is) ….   I received my briefing, and wasn't happy.   I was told the National Anthem was going to be played "as a hymn"  (WTH?) and that the Guard should NOT be "Presenting Arms" for that.  I argued..because I knew what was going to happen.   Sure enough....  I do NOT order Present arms... and I get the EVIL EYE from 3 very Senior officers.   Was called in later and "spoken to".  Strangely enough, having been briefed to do exactly what I did was apparently no excuse!

[Duffield, SASS #23454]

 

A rare occurrence:

When I was a chief warrant officer (CW2), the Brigade Command Sergeant Major (CSM) walked into my HAWK battery maintenance shop.  My sergeant first class (SFC) shop foreman greeted the CSM and the CSM tore into my SFC for not calling out "at ease."  I step into view, and said "Welcome, Sergeant Major."  The CSM then insolently asked me, "Warrant Officer, what NCO rank couldn't you make that you went warrant officer?" 

I tore into the CSM.  I ordered him to leave my shop.  He argued, but eventually left.  The Brigade Commander and I had a two way conversation about tolerating insolence.  On the next visit to the battery, the Brigade Commander visited my shop, but not the CSM.

 

P.S.  There is nothing more obnoxious than a warrant officer with over 20.

 

.

I have great respect for SGMs.  Most of them are standup guys, know their jobs, know your job, and want to help accomplish the mission AND take care of the troops.

in the instance you describe, if you were the most junior W1 in the Army you were still senior to him, and your Brigade Commander should have supported you.

 

Duffield

[Utah Bob #35998]

 

I am about to take over as commander of a veterans' post (my third time in the barrel).  For the first time, will have a retired naval officer as senior vice-commander.  Now a few years ago, Congress authorized veterans to be allowed to salute during the National Anthem, and other appropriate times, even though not in uniform.  The Army and the Air Force veterans may do this if they so desire.  The Naval services (Navy, Marines and Coast Guard) do not allow this unless in uniform or "under arms".  I need to ask my new senior-vice what he will do.  Haven't really noticed other veteran members of the post who were in the naval services as to what they do. 

What say you Navy-types?

I find the whole affair rather strange that Veterans are allowed to salute. Veterans who are no longer members of the military are private citzens and can do what they want, regardless of what Congress or the Dept of the Navy says. What is the Navy going to do to a vet if he salutes contrary to their edict? Put him on KP??

[Cyrus Cassidy #45437]

 

Note I said Some E9s. Most of them I worked with were seasoned professionals and a credit to their branch.

 

Exactly.  As you know, I recently completed battalion command, so my right-hand was an E9 (CSM as opposed to SGM -- both E9s, but the former working directly for the commander and the latter on an S3 or G3 staff).  My CSM got me through that trial by fire!  We will stay in touch long after we're both retired, and the same is true for the SGM I worked with as an S3.  

 

That said, there are a number of E9s in the Army who act like they're nobles or something, throwing their weight around, and even countermanding orders given by commanding officers.  They're old-fashioned school yard bullies, and I always had a habit of kicking bullies in the balls.  My brigade CSM was like that, and *really* hated that I stood up to him.  He would issue ORDERS to battalion commanders that went directly against what the brigade commander had directed.  I told him, "(&% off.  We're not doing that."  I received the do-you-know-who-I-am routine from this jackwagon, because apparently he forgot who I am.  I told him to "[get out of] my AO before I have you arrested," to which he replied, "YOU CAN'T ARREST ME!!!"

Funny, the whole time I was a cop I found that line to be rather hilarious.

 

"Not only can ANY commissioned officer arrest you, Sergeant Major, but I happen to have an entire battalion of MPs at my disposal who will kick your A$$ doing it.  Now go tell the colonel you disobeyed his orders before I do."

Conversation complete, and he never bothered me again. 

[Trailrider #896]

 

I find the whole affair rather strange that Veterans are allowed to salute. Veterans who are no longer members of the military are private citzens and can do what they want, regardless of what Congress or the Dept of the Navy says. What is the Navy going to do to a vet if he salutes contrary to their edict? Put him on KP??

Probably keelhaul him!  If they can find a keel and some water in the more arid climates.

[Badger Mountain Charlie SASS #43172]

 

I had several good CSMs.  My last Battalion CSM helped me fill an NCO slot I needed.  The battalion was short several NCOs and one of my maintenance sections needed a staff sergeant (SSG).  At the time, I had a Specialist 5 (SP5) technically running the section but he wasn't up to the task and one of my SP4s was the informal leader doing the job.  I went to the CSM and explained my problem.  A week or so later, a SSG was assigned to us.  The other warrants in the battalion, who were also missing SSGs, asked me how I managed to get the first SSG to come in.  I told them I had "special influence."

 

 

.

Because it was a Baptist Category?

[Birdgun Quail, SASS #63663]

 

Because it was a Baptist Category?

No, Badger! 

It can't be!! 

There is not an official Baptist Category!! 

SASS still has not approved a Baptist Category!!! 

 

P.S.  Even though I'm retired Army, I still do not salute when in civies. 

I remove my cap and place my hand/cap over my heart. 

No objection to those who do salute in civies. 

It's just my choice. 

 

P.S.S.   Ain't retirement great! 

You get to do almost anything you want!!

.

[Muley Gil SASS # 57795]

 

The characters in the book ARE Marines.

 

 

And on that note, here's one that's tickled around in my brain since I first read it in one of the Honor Bound series.

 

Clete (Major, USMC) has flown back to Washington and gone to the OSS building, where he sees his immediate superior, bird Colonel - Graham? - also USMC, and salutes him (they are both in uniform, but they are also both indoors). Graham returns the salute by reflex, and then chews Clete out - OFFICERS OF THE NAVAL SERVICE DO NOT SALUTE INDOORS!

 

Weelll, not unless they're under arms. And Clete has a Mexican carry 45 under his tunic.

 

So my ponder - while Clete, who was armed, was correct in saluting, should Colonel Graham, who was not armed, have returned it?

 

Or would "under arms" only count if it was visible - carrying a rifle, or having a holstered pistol belted on outside his tunic?

 

 

 

 

 

Under arms would mean openly bearing arms-rifle or handgun AND wearing your cover (hat.)

 

Generally, if a salute is rendered to you, you are obligated to return that salute.

 

Been reading WEB Griffin, eh?

 

[Alpo]

He brings up some interesting points. Whether they are true or not I don't know, but they're interesting.

 

One of the books in The Corps. Ken and Percy are in the Philippines. They enter the office of Army general Fertig and stand at attention at his desk, and he just looks at them. Then they finally salute and he returns it, and says something about wondering if they were going to do that. McCoy says that Marines do not salute indoors.

 

Another book same series. Australia, and a Marine light bird is going to go in to brief MacArthur on something. General Pickering tells him, "Remember, MacArthur is Army, and will expect you to salute".

 

 

He does screw the pooch though, on occasion. Especially about guns.

 

His Clandestine Operations series, taking place in '46 in Occupied Germany. He has one of his characters carrying a five shot 38 Special with which she successfully fights off a band of Russian kidnappers. Gun did not yet exist. The Chief Special came about in '54 (IIRC). She could have had a Terrier, in 38 S&W, but they keep hitting on it was a 38 special. A little later in the book and this guy loans her his Dick Special, as her gun is in evidence and he does not want her unarmed. It says that the Dick Special is also a five shot. Not when last I looked.

 

I still enjoy his books, though. I just wish his research was better.