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Long Range Rifle Side Matches


Savvy Jack

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Too bad the 44-40 is not allowed in at least mid range long distance side matches. Maybe it is to keep an overflux of lever actions out of the race.

Accuracy at 265 Yards

 

12-7-2019

Another wonderful morning at the range. It was 32 degrees when I arrived, clear and no wind. I set up four targets. 7, 25, 200 and 265 yards.

I also used the same load for both rifle and revolver. 25.8gr of Reloder 7 and 220gr 43-214A bullets. Starline brass with CCI-300 primers.

Rifle is an Uberti Winchester 73' with a Malcom 6x scope. This scope makes a 100 yard target look like a 25 yard target.

1,350fps Rifle, 760fps revolver

Revolver is an Uberti "Buckhorn" 44 Magnum with a 44-40 cylinder with a 7" barrel.

 

The Malcom scope is set to 100 yards so I had to adjust and aim high at both 200 and 265 yards. 200 yard adjustment was approximately 24" and 50" at 265 yards. If the scope had been zeroed in at both 200 and 265, the groups would be much better. The idea was to proove the cartridge, not the shooter's skills. After a few shots for "range" at both targets, groups on both targets were kill shots.

My skills are 100% lacking due to lack of practice but the cartridge is capable. Funny that a cartridge used in Little Bighorn battle at 300 yard ranges are not allowed in CAS Long Range matches......just saying.

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200 yards, after a few "range" shots, it pinned it down pretty good with POA at the top of the target stand....approx 24" high.

 

 

 

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Ipad linked to camera on spotting scope, 200 yard target

 

 

 

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POA at 200 yards but needs to be moved right "on target"

 

 

 

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265 yards. After several "range" shots off target to the left, one shot high....the target was finally hit!!!

VIDEO: Working on "elevation" before moving right. Crosshairs were in the trees approx. 50" high.

 

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Use it in the pistol caliber rifle "long range" matches. I consistently hit targets at 100 yards shooting .44 Remington Magnum rounds. However, I am not convinced they are "killers" at that range. :(

 

My "back yard" range allows me to shoot to 500 yards plus so I have been able to do a lot of experimenting. I hunt elk and deer as well as wolves and coyotes with my S&W .44 Magnum revolver but do not take long shots. My carry gun is a .44 S&W Special with a 3" barrel. I can make fairly long range hits with it using both hands. However, I would NEVER use it or a .44-40 for long range. Just because I can hit targets at long range has a lot more to do with years and thousands of rounds of practice does not make pistol caliber rounds effective for game. :)

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I would NEVER use it or a .44-40 for long range. Just because I can hit targets at long range has a lot more to do with years and thousands of rounds of practice does not make pistol caliber rounds effective for game. :)

 

That is because all of those that used it to provide food for themselves and their families are long past...and those living today have been brainwashed that this is a pistol caliber rather than a rifle caliber for "mid-range" hunting and self protection against adversaries. Do yourself a favor and purchase a copy of Winchester's 1875 catalog, read all of the Testimonials from sporting shooters and avid hunters. I have noted several times in documentation that it was referred too as a Mid-Range Rifle Caliber. It was also well known for taking antelope at 700 paces.

It is not wise to compare the 44-40 and a 44 Magnum. The 44-40 is far superior at longer ranges when loaded correctly. :D:D
"Speculating" it will not is just as bad as "speculating it will". Stop speculating and get "experience"!

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My great, great grandfather, my great grandfather and my maternal grandfather were phenominal shots. They used the .44-40 aeons ago because there wasn't much else in short, easily carried carbines on horse back. They all switched to more suitable calibers as they became available.  :)

 

Times change. We should change with them. If you love the .44-40, keep using it. Personally, I use a .338 Winchester load for antelope when I want to reach out and touch one!!!  :D

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Our family has had our place since the 1870s. We still have a few .44-40 saddle carbines. They were convenient because they were chambered the same as Colt revolvers. We don't use them because times changed and we moved on. My attitude may be known by the fact that our hands and many neighbors swore by .30-30s. I did a little research and bought a carbine in .35 Remington as a young teenager. Maybe, I am a little like you in that I STILL take it along on hunts and pack trips. It's similar to my C. Sharps .50-140 3-1/4". For long shots, I am toward Mars, have a cup of coffee and hope for the best. :D

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Aside from CAS, it has been said that......"What kills animals is the terminal ballistics of a projectile. This is the tissue disruption and damage to the vital circulatory, neurological, or respiratory system of the animal. As an example, it is more ethical to hit a whitetail with a 225-grain Barnes Expander bullet, which has a mere 600 ft.-lb. of energy at 75 yards, than with a 500-grain solid from a .470 Nitro Express, which has 4,000 ft.-lb. of energy at that range. The superior terminal ballistics of the Barnes bullet will dispatch the whitetail more swiftly than the solid bullet will". To each his own! It certainly is not easy to figure out what this would be from one given weapon to another. The bow and arrow method always seems to come in to play as well but here I will stick to the firearms.

The 30-06 has always been my favorite hunting rifle for said deer but this topic I posted is for the 44-40, not the 30-06, or any other "exotic" modern hunting rifle caliber. The topic is for CAS long range side matches. CAS long range side matches are for period weapons and the 44-40 should be right there in dead center since it was greatly used for large game in it's day. Since this is CAS and not C&IAS, the archery long distance shooting is also omitted.

However, since I did use deer targets, the hits are ethical hits....thus...

From Winchester's web site.

45-70/405gr/300 yards - (Springfield Ballistics) 896ft lbs of energy - "
terminal ballistics"?

44-40/200grJSP/300 yards - (Henry Ballistics) 806ft lbs of energy - "terminal ballistics"? (1,190fps)

38-40/180grJSP/300 yards - 811ft lbs of energy (1,160fps)

 

Crank it up to original 44-40 ballistics 1,300fps or 1920's 1,600fps, ya got a whole nother ballistics story!

44-40 Pure Lead and Black Powder Ballistics



 

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Just because I can hit targets at long range has a lot more to do with years and thousands of rounds of practice does not make pistol caliber rounds effective for game. :)

 

 

Clear Ballistics Gel Tests


Winchester claims that their 44-40 Super-X hunting ammo has a muzzle velocity of 1,190fps and that at 300 yards, it has a muzzle velocity of 823fps and 301ft lbs of energy. So what exactly can this 301ft lbs of energy do to the design of the bullet at impact? First lets change that velocity to handload velocities using the same bullet. Lets stick with CAS long distant loads which would replicate 1,300fps for starters...if we use the loss of 367fps at 300 yards then this would push a 217gr Lyman 427098 to 933fps @ 300 yards which would be 409ft lbs of energy. Now lets take a look at that ballistics gel test...

Test 3, Shot #9 used the following and had an impact velocity of 970fps impact velocity. Although only 197.5gr it pushed 413ft lbs of energy, enough for the bullet to perform and create a deadly wound channel.......at 300 yards!!!20768245_780037502176835_4111861402168700252_n.jpg.df81b2a678d520dbd89327a2d1960ad1.jpg42499_50_1_Revolver.thumb.jpg.31e29f75f3aac151d6117c352afa0168.jpg

 

DSCF2991.thumb.JPG.0259487ef5aed4f735209a86499d8e1a.JPG

 

Grant it, this is a hollow point but they were used later. If we stick to a 200gr oreven a 217gr lead bullet, we can see from this next example that there is still enough there for an ethical kill at 300 meters. If you can't shoot straight, then don't shoot ;-)

This bullet, even if slowed down to 800fps, can still perform well at 300 meters.
42798_purelead_rifle.thumb.jpg.2cdba62cad2bde4a777a00d725e1a22e.jpg20729518_780036848843567_8422578191859404609_n.jpg.57b557e14033f4e85657b109aaa03080.jpgDSCF3014.thumb.JPG.15f2b703560620da0158374f367bf189.JPG

 

However, a hardcast bullet traveling at 800fps might just make a clean penetration path as shown with this Mav Dutch BigLube. Although this large meplat may prevent this bullet from reaching 300 yards adequately,  a 200gr that would, will certainly cause havoc!

20729699_780240435489875_435645957282417067_n.jpg.c6846cab6e273bb6c40fa6ea25204d61.jpg

 

Now this will certainly be creating hits from an angle, unsure how much but the trajectory will be great. So aside from being a legitimate cartridge for CAS mid-Range long distance matches, jacking the velocities up to original Winchester "High Velocity" loads of 1,600fps..... yes, it can be a fine killer at over 300 yards....if you can hit anything with it!

 

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:) Our ranch dates from the 1870s. I am a product of that thinking. Although I applaud your love of the .44-40, I am sticking to what I know!!!  :P Remember, you are conversing with aun reconstructed Grand Patron that shoots a .50-140 3-1/4" Sharps, an 8 gauge 4" double, a cowboy and water fowl 10 gauge 3-1/2" double, another with a longer barrel for cowboy trap, a semi ten for waterfowl, a warthog .45 Colt loads of Holy Black for CAS and a .44 Rem Mag for elk and deer.

 

It should not be surprising that I am not a big .44-40 fan!  :D

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Remember, you are conversing with aun reconstructed Grand Patron that shoots a .50-140 3-1/4" Sharps, an 8 gauge 4" double, a cowboy and water fowl 10 gauge 3-1/2" double, another with a longer barrel for cowboy trap, a semi ten for waterfowl, a warthog .45 Colt loads of Holy Black for CAS and a .44 Rem Mag for elk and deer.

 

It should not be surprising that I am not a big .44-40 fan!  :D

 

I am not surprised at all and is pretty much my exact point. No harm intended, none taken but again, the 44-40 shouldn't be left out of mid-range long distance side matches when offered....after all, all you guys do is go ding ding on a metal plate!! ;-)

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Too bad the 44-40 is not allowed in at least mid range long distance side matches. Maybe it is to keep an overflux of lever actions out of the race.

 

 

Never shot a rifle caliber repeating rifle match huh? Lots of levers shoot rifle caliber cartridges in the appropriate category. I shoot a Winchester 1894 in .38-55 as did a few other folks at the SER, one fella shot a .45-70.

 

 

 

I am not surprised at all and is pretty much my exact point. No harm intended, none taken but again, the 44-40 shouldn't be left out of mid-range long distance side matches when offered....after all, all you guys do is go ding ding on a metal plate!! ;-)


All your arguing and scientific noodling aside the rules are clear:

“Rifle Caliber” competition rifles must use traditional, period, rimmed cartridges. No cartridge chambered for use in any SASS approved main match revolver or rifle may be used in the “Rifle Caliber” competition, except the .56-50. Thus, .30-30 (.30 WCF), .38-55 Marlin & Ballard, .43 Spanish, or .45-70 Government cartridges are legal, while a .375 Winchester, .444 Marlin, .32-20, or .44-40 are not legal. Shotguns using slugs are not allowed in the Buffalo Single Shot competition. "

.44-40 by definition is a pistol caliber cartridge and there are categories specifically for pistol caliber rifles. Action throw length and recoil difference would allow a pistol caliber rifle an unfair advantage over the rifle caliber rifle thus different categories. You are however free to run a match with pistol caliber rifles out to any distance you like since nothing in the rules defines the distances to be shot just the categories, gun and ammo requirements.

PS- using jacketed bullet data to argue with is pointless for SASS. Lead, gas checked lead or polymer coated lead bullets only.

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Asked and answered since before SASS was formed.  Long range rifle side matches were not for Main Match rifles.  Does it have to be called "Long Range Rifle"?  Why not just be truthful and call your match "Savvy Jack's scoped carbine match"?   Can I use my Vortex 6-24x50 equipped 45 Colt rifle... or does it have to be a "carbine"?  As I don't own one... but want to shoot also?   Wait, wait... I do, it's a Rossi in .38Spl... does it qualify?  Maybe I can mount a 4x fixed power on it... 

 

Where's that "tongue-in-cheek" emoticon??? 

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Never shot a rifle caliber repeating rifle match huh?

PS- using jacketed bullet data to argue with is pointless for SASS. Lead, gas checked lead or polymer coated lead bullets only.

 

I am glad you decided to join in to what you call arguing!!!  Yes, I have shot repeating rifle cartridges a lot but unfortunately for me where I lived at the time I was shooting CAS a lot, the range was only 200 yards.....and yes, I shot 200 yards with it and enjoyed it. Funny how you judge someone you don't even know. Thanks for being condescending...typical.

Besides, SASS can call the 44-40 a pistol cartridge if they want to, their prerogative but that doesn't mean it is. I can call you what I want but does it really make you one? ;-)

 

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Asked and answered since before SASS was formed.  Long range rifle side matches were not for Main Match rifles.  Does it have to be called "Long Range Rifle"?  Why not just be truthful and call your match "Savvy Jack's scoped carbine match"?   Can I use my Vortex 6-24x50 equipped 45 Colt rifle... or does it have to be a "carbine"?  As I don't own one... but want to shoot also?   Wait, wait... I do, it's a Rossi in .38Spl... does it qualify?  Maybe I can mount a 4x fixed power on it... 

 

Where's that "tongue-in-cheek" emoticon??? 


Here we go again, I use the scope to prove the cartridge, I also have video shooting 265 yards with open sites and a tang site.....geeeehhh, looks like I touched a sensitive part here...LOL

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I am glad you decided to join in to what you call arguing!!!  Yes, I have shot repeating rifle cartridges a lot but unfortunately for me where I lived at the time I was shooting CAS a lot, the range was only 200 yards.....and yes, I shot 200 yards with it and enjoyed it. Funny how you judge someone you don't even know. Thanks for being condescending...typical.

Besides, SASS can call the 44-40 a pistol cartridge if they want to, their prerogative but that doesn't mean it is. I can call you what I want but does it really make you one? ;-)

 

Apparently you need this because you can't handle factual refutation of your pointless argument. Enjoy.

 

butt paste.jpg

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I am glad you decided to join in to what you call arguing!!!  Yes, I have shot repeating rifle cartridges a lot but unfortunately for me where I lived at the time I was shooting CAS a lot, the range was only 200 yards.....and yes, I shot 200 yards with it and enjoyed it. Funny how you judge someone you don't even know. Thanks for being condescending...typical.

Besides, SASS can call the 44-40 a pistol cartridge if they want to, their prerogative but that doesn't mean it is. I can call you what I want but does it really make you one? ;-)

Well IMR,Hodgon call it a pistol caliber

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

as well as Alliant

https://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/recipedetail.aspx?gtypeid=5&weight=200&shellid=13&bulletid=14

 

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Only for those who might be interested.

The reason why I suggested at least a 300 yard participation was for the historical Switzerland testings of the Winchester 1866. This information is listed in Winchester's 1875 catalog. We all know the 66' was a rimfire but the 44-40 downloaded to 1,125fps can do the same thing...yes...with black powder.

Official Swiss Commission, At Aarau, Switzerland

October 8th, 1866

 

300 Paces (250 YARDS)  FOR FUN, KICK IT UP TO 300 YARDS
Target - 6ft x 6 ft
Large squares - 6"

Small squares - 1/10th" (5 squares in 6")

The Winchester 66' grouped 29 of 30 shots inside 18" x 18"

The following photos are from those targets from 300 paces to 1,000 paces and one "off-hand" shooting at 300 paces.79305558_1352730871574159_1256267278266138624_n.thumb.jpg.2cffc0a6316368b9ef82f9f5c2325212.jpg80092031_1352730831574163_6360886074780155904_n.thumb.jpg.e827c22260f875638000fdf85278d494.jpg79514827_1352730804907499_2275232605496410112_n.thumb.jpg.67ee8fb72b4a4d72861b7810a69c1f80.jpg79997708_1352730784907501_8605639157097693184_n.thumb.jpg.4ba948db8a27c96000482fb1b888afb5.jpg80871814_1352730758240837_1744443264108331008_n.thumb.jpg.2e2ac38a79c2ba49ea1c8249f420b7ff.jpg79011293_1352730738240839_2712298093969145856_n.thumb.jpg.25dc007bfeeb02df75962cb115355fee.jpg

 

Interestingly, John Kort use to replicate these shots with black powder loads at 300 meters on steel javelin before he past away. In the photo below, his shots are indicated by red dots. He too used a scope, again to prove the cartridge, not the shooter.....and yes, duh, no scopes for competition.

2078594950_44-40henry300target.jpg.872bed1ab5e40a909c76c00a6e30ce2f.jpg 

 

 

 

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Back in the 1950s as a Junior in Dartmouth College, I shot a Lucky Lager can at 1/4 mile on the Grafton County Fish and Game Range with my .44 Rem Mag in my S&W revolver. That was witnessed by my Deke fraternity brothers and several others.

 

THAT DOES NOT MAKE THE .44 REMINGTON MAGNUM A LONG RANGE RIFLE CALIBER!!!!   :D

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Waaaal; I go along with .38-55 Winchester!!!   :P

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Mud Marine said

 

Back in the 1950s as a Junior in Dartmouth College, I shot a Lucky Lager can at 1/4 mile on the Grafton County Fish and Game Range with my .44 Rem Mag in my S&W revolver. That was witnessed by my Deke fraternity brothers and several others.

So you killed a BEER and let the witness's live to tell about it?

The only hope for your salvation is the Lucky Lager can was empty.

 if not, You should be reported for abusing the alcohol!:lol::lol:

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It was one of many dead soldiers!!!   :-) If I were to attempt a similar shooting position 100 orthopaedic surgeons wouldn't be able to untangle me. There is an interesting back story involved. :P

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That was my vehicle in "Animal House". I did get expelled, joined the Marines and came back to graduate later!!! :wub:

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