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BootStrap Phil

Rule Change

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I'm really not not try argue with you, however.....

 

My rights DO extend to private property. Not applicable in this case but reread the 7th Amendment.

 

Bitching on the internet? Why do you think this rule got changed? It sure wasn't by local bitching, think SASS Wire, Facebook, Twitter and the like.

 

As far as further comment on this between you and I, please PM me with your phone number and I'll be happy to converse about out differences.

I have no idea what the 7th amendment has to do with your 1st amendment rights, but then again I am not a constitutional scholar and perhaps you are. Hopefully you are better at that than math (24.6% is less than 1/4th, a far cry from close to 1/3). I'll also have to take your word on the facebook, twitter, etc as I am not on any of those platforms so perhaps you are correct. In which case, just keep at it on those platforms and maybe it'll get changed back.

 

I am not arguing either, as I really have no dog in this hunt. I didn't vote on it one way or the other, and in fact I don't recall being asked at anytime from any of the 5 clubs I attend, so apparently none of them wanted my opinion either. My only issue is with those that feel like the sky is falling now over this new rule change because what? folks are going to all of sudden start chambering live rounds when they never did before because they don't have to drop the hammer at the loading table? It makes no sense to me.

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Aside from sanctioning inattention when handling firearms  (which I think is a monumental fail, and only sets a precedent for more of the same), pulling the trigger had to be the stupidest way I could even imagine to determine if a chamber contains a live round.  

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If/when that happens (while resolving a cocked rifle situation), ejection of the unfired round when the rifle is levered to begin the shooting string would result in the same SDQ.

True - but by that time the danger has passed .....

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I appreciate that we were asked.  Most of the shooters at my club voted to change the rule.  I agree with the change.  

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So at the point that someone notices that the hammer is back, the old rule and new rule have the shooter standing in the exact same spot. Old rule says "you're done. Go to the Unloading Table." The new rule says "stay where you are standing. Fully cock the hammer. And aiming downrange, engage the trigger." 

 

I'm not going to argue either side. Just point out, that the moment that it's noticed, the safe/unsafe condition is still identical in either rule situation.  The difference being whether you find out the chamber has a live round in the bay or at the Unloading Table. 

 

I don't really have a say one way or the other due to the  fact that of the three clubs that I shoot at over the 4 weekends a month, Not one TG polled this question within my earshot. 

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I will continue to make sure my hammer is fully down on an empty chamber.  I'm sure you will too, as will probably all of us. 

 

 

Most of us have made the mistake and earned the penalty once in the past.  And after that experience, few if us will ever do it again, rule or no rule.

 

I will definitely continue to lower the hammers of my 73s before loading and I guess all of my pards I am shooting with in my club will do so. Basic gun handling and a very easy rule to follow. A look in the chamber, closing the lever, lower the hammer, start to stuff the tube. Same procedure everytime and no need to hurry while loading. It never happened to me nor did I witness a penalty because of a (half)cocked hammer (but I'm only for a year now in this game).

 

Will EVERYBODY be as careful after the rule change as before? Wishful thinking!! There will always be those people asking "why should I? Just go click on the line and problem is solved." And you have to accord as it's the rule.

 

In my opinion, the safety issue with a cocked hammer it's not the cocked hammer itself, but rather someone not capable of following such a simple rule regarding gun handling is more likely to create a much more hazardous situation some other time :(

 

Equanimous

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When the rule change came up and was presented by the TGs at the four clubs at which I shoot the most, the reaction was pretty much the same.  At first glance and without much thought, about 2/3 of the groups were in favor of change with the rest against or didn’t care.  After much discussion though, all four clubs voted against the change.

 

Most thought that going to the line with the hammer cocked (full cock) was unsafe.  But most thought that going to the line with hammer on half-cock should be a no-call.  At our clubs the vote was to leave the rule in place as it was.

 

Going to the line with a live round in the chamber is clearly unsafe and should be a SDQ.  (It is).  The theory was that if you don’t have a live round in the chamber, it’s not unsafe (meaning it is safe).  How do you tell?  Pull the trigger and see!  (In the case of half cock, you cock the hammer then pull the trigger).  If the hammer happens to be DOWN on a live round, you don’t know until the gun is levered and the live round pops out.

 

It seems to me that the committee missed the REAL safety problem:  Walking around with a cocked (read “full cock”) rifle when you don’t know it’s easy to fire!  Even with a round in the chamber, the rifle is not as likely to go off from either half cock or hammer down.

 

A fair number of the ‘73’s we shoot have worn sears to varying degrees all the way to the point that they won’t stay cocked at all.  Somewhere before that point, the rifle becomes very sensitive and gets to where the hammer will fall from a slight jar.  In a stock rifle, the hammer falls to half-cock and doesn’t fire.   BUT - Many shooters (mostly because of the rule in question) have disabled the half-cock, so that the rife WILL fire when the hammer falls without pulling the trigger.

 

I don’t know if the old rule prevented any AD’s with rifles on the way to the line or not.  But I do know that lumping half-cock  into the same definition as full-cock has led a high numbers of shooters to remove the half-cock notch, making the gun less safe.  For that reason, I would have supported a rule change removing the SDQ penalty for half-cock violations, but NOT for FULL-COCK.  
 

I am hoping that a future rules committee will consider separating the penalties for half vs full-cock.

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Cypress Sam said ...

> snip <

 I would have supported a rule change removing the SDQ penalty for half-cock violations, but NOT for FULL-COCK.  

> snip <

ding ding ding ...

But of course ... it would be impossible for either condition to ever go un-noticed by the TO prior to the gun being laid down or leaned against a prop (like when their shotgun is in their right hand because it is being staged first ... and the rifle is initially obscured).

That could never happen ... right??  

 

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ding ding ding ...

But of course ... it would be impossible for either condition to ever go un-noticed by the TO prior to the gun being laid down or leaned against a prop (like when their shotgun is in their right hand because it is being staged first ... and the rifle is initially obscured).

That could never happen ... right??  

 


Pete, I’m not quite sure what you’re saying, a little sarcasm maybe?  Full cock is easy to notice and call.  Half cock, not so much.  In fact on some guns, half cock and hammer down LOOK almost the same.  
 

What I’m saying is that the two conditions, half and full cock are not the same and should be addressed differently.  Both the new rule and old rule treats the two conditions the same.

 

A loaded gun on full cock will fire if:  1.  The trigger is pulled, or 2.  The hammer falls without pulling the trigger and the half cock notch has been disabled.

 

A loaded gun will probably not fire if the trigger is pulled while on half cock.

 

My reason for opposing the rule change has to do with FULL cock, not HALF cock.

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When the dropped round rule was changed, there was much "woe to the sport" comments.  What actually happened was .......nothing.  

 

This will probably be the same. 

   

I called the penalties per the rules in force at the time.   I fully supported eliminating these two because there were already multiple layers of rules to protect the shooters.  

 

Should there be a need, and a rule is changed, I'll make the call per the new rule.  

 

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Cypress Sam said:
Pete, I’m not quite sure what you’re saying, a little sarcasm maybe?  Full cock is easy to notice and call.  Half cock, not so much.  In fact on some guns, half cock and hammer down LOOK almost the same.  

> snip <

Cypress,

Yes ... sorry .. I was being sarcastic. Because ... I agree w/ what you said entirely. But "I" think it is also possible for a full cocked gun to go un-noticed (sometimes) until it is in the process of being staged (horizontally or vertically) ... AND ... was just thinking how dangerous that could be.

As someone else already mentioned ... it wasn't the actual infraction/danger (of half cock on empty chamber) as it was the lack of "mental attention" that made the old penalty valuable.  

Edited by Patagonia Pete
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PASSED by vote of the Territorial Governors.
YES - 208 (75.3%)
NO -- 68 (24.6%)

 

I somehow would have expected a little more than 276 votes as there are over 500 SASS affiliated clubs listed. Does not every club has a TG or aren't they active anymore or just didn't care about the rule change?

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I was contacted by 2 TG's at clubs that I shoot at. I voted no, keep it the same. Now that it is changed, that's fine but let's just all be careful and at the LT we can all look at other shooters rifles which we pretty much do now anyway at the clubs I shoot at!;)

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Interesting...My club is a SASS affiliated club. I am the event chairman and the MD of this monthly CAS event at my club for about 5 years now. I don't know who my TG is, I have never been contacted by a TG, and no one representing SASS asked my club about our opinion on this proposed rule change or any other that might be in the pipeline. One wonders sometimes why should we stay affiliated.... 

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Interesting...My club is a SASS affiliated club. I am the event chairman and the MD of this monthly CAS event at my club for about 5 years now. I don't know who my TG is, I have never been contacted by a TG, and no one representing SASS asked my club about our opinion on this proposed rule change or any other that might be in the pipeline. One wonders sometimes why should we stay affiliated.... 

You should ask your clubs president who your TG is at this point, as It might be time that someone steps up to actively fill the position for your club. Maybe it’s time somebody with the clubs best interest in mind..... (maybe yourself) takes over the TG role for the club!:)

 

Edited by Captain Clark
Clarity, spelling
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You should ask your clubs president who your TG is at this point, as It might be time that someone steps up to actively fill the position for your club. Maybe it’s time somebody with the clubs best interest in mind..... (maybe yourself) takes over the TG role for the club!:)

 

Small club. President would not know as he is not a CAS shooter. Only a hand full of members are SASS. I don't know anything about being a TG, or how to become one, but I would consider it.

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Small club. President would not know as he is not a CAS shooter. Only a hand full of members are SASS. I don't know anything about being a TG, or how to become one, but I would consider it.

The fine ladies at HQ ought to be able to help you out with the how to go about it. Small clubs should be represented, which might help your club grow for the future. Responsible cowboys like yourself are who is needed! 
Remember, there are 2 badges that you can’t buy in SASS, you gotta earn them. I wear my TG badge proudly knowing that my club put their trust in me to do right for them! 
PM me or any active TG anytime for advice.

Good luck my friend:)

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\

 

I don't really have a say one way or the other due to the  fact that of the three clubs that I shoot at over the 4 weekends a month, Not one TG polled this question within my earshot. 

You must not have been at the matches when I posed this question.  I also asked for input on this in several articles in the Spur.  I voted for the rule change because all the responses I received indicated shooters wanted this change.  After talking about this for almost three years I cannot believe people did not know about this or have a chance to give their TG input.

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IMHO ... It's really just a matter of being inclusive (already mentioned in the "SASS King and Queen" thread).

 

While it is apparent that the vast majority of TGs go above and beyond to "get it all" out there … not all have the same tools to accomplish it.

Some may have local "active" club bulletin boards and/or email networks; facebook pages or other means of communication.

I suspect though … that many have no option other than to depend on addressing shooters (in attendance) at local matches.

 

There are a few means of mass communication to SASS member already out there …

The website; the Wire; the Chronicle; the  SASS bulletin …

 

In the last Chronicle … Skinny said ongoing there would be two issues per year now in digital only format. He went on to mention that this would allow for some content to re-appear … content that had previously yielded to the reality of print media (like cartoons etc …).

This would be a great place to include TG minutes and such … (notices of impending votes etc). 

This would also make the TG's job a lot easier and remove the chance for any "reasonably active" SASS member to claim something like this got past them.  

 

Just sayin' ... -_-  

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Interesting...My club is a SASS affiliated club. I am the event chairman and the MD of this monthly CAS event at my club for about 5 years now. I don't know who my TG is, I have never been contacted by a TG, and no one representing SASS asked my club about our opinion on this proposed rule change or any other that might be in the pipeline. One wonders sometimes why should we stay affiliated.... 

 

Sent you a PM

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So at the point that someone notices that the hammer is back, the old rule and new rule have the shooter standing in the exact same spot. Old rule says "you're done. Go to the Unloading Table." The new rule says "stay where you are standing. Fully cock the hammer. And aiming downrange, engage the trigger." 

 

I'm not going to argue either side. Just point out, that the moment that it's noticed, the safe/unsafe condition is still identical in either rule situation.  The difference being whether you find out the chamber has a live round in the bay or at the Unloading Table. 

 

I don't really have a say one way or the other due to the  fact that of the three clubs that I shoot at over the 4 weekends a month, Not one TG polled this question within my earshot. 

Yes you hit the nail on the head, and the reason why, without a dog at all in this fight, I feel that the naysayers are making a mountain out of a molehill.

 

 

When the dropped round rule was changed, there was much "woe to the sport" comments.  What actually happened was .......nothing.  

 

This will probably be the same. 

   

I called the penalties per the rules in force at the time.   I fully supported eliminating these two because there were already multiple layers of rules to protect the shooters.  

 

Should there be a need, and a rule is changed, I'll make the call per the new rule.  

 

And this as well. I remember when the dropped round rule change was the beginning of the end of SASS and how many accidents waiting to happen this would cause. I suppose those accidents are still waiting to happen, as I haven't heard of one yet. 

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Aside from sanctioning inattention when handling firearms  (which I think is a monumental fail, and only sets a precedent for more of the same), pulling the trigger had to be the stupidest way I could even imagine to determine if a chamber contains a live round.  

 

As you probably know, I came to SASS from a variety of other shooting sports. In quite a few of those you were required to empty you gun and show clear at the end of each stage. That process went like this:

 

1) Drop out the magazine

2) Rack the slide to eject the chambered round

3) Hold the slide back and show the RO the empty chamber and magazine well

4) Point the gun down range and pull the trigger to doubly ensure no live round is chambered.

5) Reholster your gun

 

You May not agree with this, you may not like it, but it’s not unique to SASS. 

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Aside from sanctioning inattention when handling firearms  (which I think is a monumental fail, and only sets a precedent for more of the same), pulling the trigger had to be the stupidest way I could even imagine to determine if a chamber contains a live round.  

 

Ref M4 bottom right, Have done this in the military all during my 25 years and upon reentry into FOB used a clearing barrel and pulling the trigger. Really not that stupid.

 

weapons-clearing14-l.jpg

 

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Ref M4 bottom right, Have done this in the military all during my 25 years and upon reentry into FOB used a clearing barrel and pulling the trigger. Really not that stupid.

 

weapons-clearing14-l.jpg

 

You are either intentionally or accidentally skipping the part where you check the chamber before you pull the trigger. 

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As you probably know, I came to SASS from a variety of other shooting sports. In quite a few of those you were required to empty you gun and show clear at the end of each stage. That process went like this:

 

1) Drop out the magazine

2) Rack the slide to eject the chambered round

3) Hold the slide back and show the RO the empty chamber and magazine well

4) Point the gun down range and pull the trigger to doubly ensure no live round is chambered.

5) Reholster your gun

 

You May not agree with this, you may not like it, but it’s not unique to SASS. 

Not sure if you are being serious... in other shooting sports, the trigger is pulled to drop the hammer AFTER THE CHAMBER HAS BEEN DETERMINED TO BE EMPTY. Using the trigger to determine if the chamber is empty is stupid. 

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Not sure if you are being serious... in other shooting sports, the trigger is pulled to drop the hammer AFTER THE CHAMBER HAS BEEN DETERMINED TO BE EMPTY. Using the trigger to determine if the chamber is empty is stupid. 

Just cause I like stirring the pot to see what floats up.  If the muzzle is pointed in a safe direction, in the circumstances this rule addresses, why is using the trigger to determine the chamber is empty stupid.  What bad thing might happen?

 

:ph34r:

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If/when that happens (while resolving a cocked rifle situation), ejection of the unfired round when the rifle is levered to begin the shooting string would result in the same SDQ.

   Before I installed my lever lock, I have jacked the first round. Back when I attempted to use a Marlin, the first round has been known to fall out of the receiver when I levered it.

 

-Tennessee Williams....doing a good job of not instigating anything.

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I don't see that pointing the gun down range under supervision and pulling the trigger as being stupid or even unsafe. However, I would rather see the action opened and the shooter directed to the ULT. Basic firearm safety had already been broken by the shooter when they arrived on stage with the hammer cocked. IMO it should not be allowed to slide without penalty. If no round under the cocked hammer... then a 10 sec safety, if a live round under the cocked hammer... then a SDQ. We must all guard against Complacency. We do the Loading table event many times over and over again, and some folks do become complacent. Again.... a true and real Loading table officer, one that actually does the job, can help the shooter to not become complacent. JMO

 

Snakebite

 

 

 

 

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I don't see that pointing the gun down range under supervision and pulling the trigger as being stupid or even unsafe.

 

Snakebite

 

 

 

 

This is standard procedure in Wild Bunch side matches when using a Model 12 shotgun.

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I don't see that pointing the gun down range under supervision and pulling the trigger as being stupid or even unsafe. However, I would rather see the action opened and the shooter directed to the ULT. Basic firearm safety had already been broken by the shooter when they arrived on stage with the hammer cocked. IMO it should not be allowed to slide without penalty. If no round under the cocked hammer... then a 10 sec safety, if a live round under the cocked hammer... then a SDQ. We must all guard against Complacency. We do the Loading table event many times over and over again, and some folks do become complacent. Again.... a true and real Loading table officer, one that actually does the job, can help the shooter to not become complacent. JMO

 

Snakebite

 

 

 

 

This is what I prefer also.

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I don't see that pointing the gun down range under supervision and pulling the trigger as being stupid or even unsafe. However, I would rather see the action opened and the shooter directed to the ULT. Basic firearm safety had already been broken by the shooter when they arrived on stage with the hammer cocked. IMO it should not be allowed to slide without penalty. If no round under the cocked hammer... then a 10 sec safety, if a live round under the cocked hammer... then a SDQ. We must all guard against Complacency. We do the Loading table event many times over and over again, and some folks do become complacent. Again.... a true and real Loading table officer, one that actually does the job, can help the shooter to not become complacent. JMO

 

Snakebite

 

 

 

 

 

+2

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Levering the 1st round and watching it fly out of the port is not a fool-proof indication that

it was in the chamber.

Something to think about before handing out SDQ because you 'thought' that 1st round was

in the chamber.

 

..........Widder

 

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Not sure if you are being serious... in other shooting sports, the trigger is pulled to drop the hammer AFTER THE CHAMBER HAS BEEN DETERMINED TO BE EMPTY. Using the trigger to determine if the chamber is empty is stupid. 

I'm being totally serious. And I do see your point about when it's done but that doesn't change the fact that it's done. 

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Not sure if you are being serious... in other shooting sports, the trigger is pulled to drop the hammer AFTER THE CHAMBER HAS BEEN DETERMINED TO BE EMPTY. Using the trigger to determine if the chamber is empty is stupid. 

 

Because of my long life involvement with firearms AND my regular attendance at reasonably size Southern

Baptist Churches, I have had numerous request to help folks learn about firearms and in particular..... shooting

those firearms.

 

There have been numerous times when someone thought their firearm was empty and when I ask them to

show me, they would cock the hammer, pull the trigger and get a resounding 'Kaboom'.

There have been numerous times when some folks thought their Ruger 10-22 was empty, relaxed their

aiming poster, and pulled the trigger to show me it was empty.   YEP, another 'pop' would occur.

 

I agree with ya Smokestack.

 

I have an ole saying I remind folks on occasion:   "If it wrong and everybody is doing it, its still wrong.

But if its right, its still right even if nobody is doing it."

 

I would prefer not to acquire a nickname of 'Barney'.

 

..........Widder

 

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