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Feeding troubles with 1860 Henry 44-40


Sarsaparilla Sam

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Greetings! 

 

I am having a back and forth war with Benelli (importer of Uberti Products) over my 1860 Henry since. I bought it.  I have sent it back 4 times and they keep punting it back saying that it works fine for them with there test ammo (Winchester grey box cowboy loads 44-40).  My hand loads are made with virgin stair line brass, Missouri Bullet Company 44-40 specific bullets powered with trail boss powder, using the RCBS cowboy dies (the fancy looking ones).  I made them to the best of my ability and 

 to spec according to Lymans 50th Ed reloading guide.  I have not been able to try it in another lever action rifle because I do not have another smokeless 44-40 rifle to try it in.  I do have a Winchester 1873 serial number 421091B,  it was made back in 1892.  I put dummy rounds loaded the same way through it with no issue.  The only factory ammo I have even feed the Henry currently is Fiocchi cowboy stuff.  I do plan to order as many other brands possible to try to see if they work better but I am  not holding my breath with that angle.

 

The issue is that when you load it with 10 rounds (in my test video I only load 5)  and you lever it to chamber a round it jams with the lever locked in the open position unable to feed a round and you have to push the follower forward letting the round slide forward into the magazine to clear the jam.  The issue does not happen consistently but you are guaranteed to experience  the problem at least 3-4 times per 10 if not more. I already picked up the Magtech Cowboy rounds and Hornedy Cowboy rounds from my local gun shop.

 

 One things I was thinking was removing the lifter from my 1873 Winchester in 44-40 and installing it temporally in the 1860 Henry to see if the lifter geometry is the issue.  Only if it fits and would not damage the lifter from the 73

 

 Is there something blindingly obvious that I am missing?  My current plan is to write a college thesis and beat Benelli over the head and make them repair it.  I refuse to spend extra money to repair a brand new gun that arrived as a lemon.

 

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The poor dummy rounds I used in the photo is where the lifter is on the lower position have been smashed down me that is why they are much shorter.  I made 10 of them trying to understand the problem and they each must have been cycled 10-20 times so they are telescoping pretty good when this image was taken.

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  The second one is me alternation snap cap then dummy round for the whole magazine.  The snap caps feed and function 100% of the time.  I managed to push the snap cap into the chamber to try to show the issue I am experiencing (not sure if it does anything).  

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Is the lifter deformed in any way that people can see?  It does have some rough edges that I are disappointing to see  for the money that I Paid for the dam thing.

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You're bullets look a little short to me and it looks like your bolt isn't retracting enough. OAL needs to be 1.575-1.585; I run mine as close to 1.580 as I can get.  Not sure why the bolt isn't retracting enough, something may be binding it up.

 

 

If it's only happening with 10, the crimps may be failing and  pushing the bullet back in the case; try a harder crimp.

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I agree with Cody lead Bullet needs to be set out more.

I haven't had used any Missouri bullets, but I would be surprised if they didn't have a crimping grove.

If they do reajust your seating die so your brass will clamp on the grove. Should take care of the problem. 

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Howdy

 

Put that dremel tool away, more good guns have been ruined with dremel tools than probably anything else.

 

I agree with the others. Your cartridges look too short. Too much of the next round in the magazine is protruding into the mortise where the carrier rides, and the bevel on the carrier is not able to engage it and shove it back into the chamber so it blocks the carrier from rising.

 

Here is a view down into my Henry with a cartridge on the chamber. Notice the next round in the magazine is only protruding about the thickness of its rim. Compare that with your photo. Much more of the next round is protruding into the space in your photo.

 

henry%20carrier%20w%2044-40%20round_zpsx

 

 

 

 

Specifications of these rifles change over time. The dimensions of your antique 1873 are probably different enough that it does not hang up with the same ammo you are using. I used to shoot an Uberti 1873 and I had to load ammo for it extra long, around 1.610 -1.615 OAL for it to function properly. Now I load my 44-40 ammo around 1.585 long for my Henry and it functions fine.

 

The key here is how much of the next round is protruding into the space. Forget about what anybody else is using for OAL, load your ammo so that not much more than about .060, the thickness of the rim, is protruding into the space.

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I bet you find the OAL of your cartridges is shorter than the snap caps. As already noted, your cartridge looks too short and is allowing the one in the magazine to protrude too far into the receiver. Either you've loaded it that way, or they're telescoping because of an improper crimp. A few cycles of dummy rounds thru a Henry will telescope them pretty good if the crimp isn't right.

 

With a 200 gr, .428 Missouri Bullet, my cartridges measure 1.584 and feed great in my Uberti Henry. Max OAL according to Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook is 1.592.

 

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"A few cycles of dummy rounds thru a Henry will telescope them pretty good if the crimp isn't right."

 

I've been loading 44-40 for close to 20 years, and I never run my dummies through the action of a rifle more than a couple of times. The bullets will usually telescope into the cases after a couple of times through the action.

 

Not a problem with a solid plug of Black Powder behind the bullet.

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The last thing I will ever do is take any kind of tool to modify it to make it work.  It is a good way to end up with an expensive canoe paddle or boat anchor.  I have tried everything from 1.6 to 1.595, all equally fail and fed irregularly.

 

Case Sizes for snap caps and then handloades

 

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What dummy rounds and snap caps look like space wise IMG_20191203_213037.thumb.jpg.311da879bfbef58ea88a51ef090f6069.jpgIMG_20191203_220440.thumb.jpg.a504479719bddf052d5f4b39f3746756.jpg

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Result Dummy Rounds is a failure to feed and it locking up the gun The only way to free up the action is pushing the follower forward releasing pressure off the round and allowing it to fall back into the magazine.  Doing this action allows the round and follower to be jiggled to the  bottom and then and only then can you restart and complete the levering processes to chamber said round.  also notice when jammed the lifter is not allowed all the way up.  (I believe it to be catching and digging into the brass of the cartage)

IMG_20191203_210118.thumb.jpg.3027fe0eb481fcbe8b364d093a82eeef.jpg

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Result for  Snap caps is what we all know and love... A perfectly working lever gun that flings the round out the top as fast as you can cycle it.  Notice the lifter in the fully up position ready to reset the cycle.

 

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The problem is very vexing as it works 100% of the time without fail with the snap Caps.  Only My custom rounds and the factory rounds seem to have issues.  I have only got my hands on Fiocchi cowboy action rounds currently which I must add use star line brass (The same that I use for my hand loads).  I have ordered a box of Hordnay  and Magtech cowboy loads and will soon buy a box of black Hills Ammunition for testing shortly.   That will bring me up to for four different kinds of food to see what might possible run better.  I am not holding my breath on this one unfortunately

 

IMG_20191203_220504.jpg

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Driftwood has already touched on different specs between guns. Turn your rifle over and measure the receiver length. This is a pic of my Uberti that measures 1.601. How does yours compare to your cartridge OAL? You may need to adjust your OAL to suit this particular rifle. Try a few of different lengths and let us know how it turns out.

 

iW2RCDV.jpg

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Looking at your photos, I agree your rounds are too short.

 

The 1860 rifle does not have a next cartridge stop.

It depends on the lifter ramp to push the next rouond back in to the magazine tube as the lifter comes up.

If the rounds are too short, the rim will in time wear a groove in the ramp that will not let the round rim slide forward, jamming hge gun.

 

My cmmercial rounds were loaded to 1.582" to 1.585" in length to lessen the effort hte lifter ramp has to do.

 

Bullet pushed back in to the case. (smokelss)

A good roll crimp will dig in to the bullet sides even if the case is not rolled in to the crip groove.

Just watch for case colapsing.

Wrinkles on the neck near the shoulder.

 

Black Powder does not usually do this because the cases are filled with power and maybe some filler so the bullet compresses the load.

This holds the bullet from sliding back in to the case.

 

There is a photo showing the round in the lifter well as a way to measure.

You may need more than the 1.58" number but do not exceed 1.60"

Leave a little space between the round and the ends of the lefter well.

 

When you find the length your rifle likes, stick with it.

 

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I don't think the rounds are too short.  The snap caps, which feed fine, are shorter than his reloads. The ramp on the carrier looks fine.   Are the rims on the dummies identical to the Starline rims?

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The last thing I will ever do is take any kind of tool to modify it to make it work.  It is a good way to end up with an expensive canoe paddle or boat anchor.  I have tried everything from 1.6 to 1.595, all equally fail and fed irregularly.

 

Case Sizes for snap caps and then handloades

 

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What dummy rounds and snap caps look like space wise IMG_20191203_213037.thumb.jpg.311da879bfbef58ea88a51ef090f6069.jpg

 

 

 

 

Take a picture just like this one only with tension on the lever like you are trying to finish the action cycle. 

 

Does the round just coming out of the magazine stay where it is or does it start to go into the magazine. If it starts to go into the magazine how far does it go?

 

I wonder if the round is hanging up because the rim is catching on the magazine opening. Remember as the carrier rises the round coming out of the magazine tube gets pushed upward. Based on the picture there is a good possibility that the rim of the case is catching on the sharp edge of the magazine opening.

You can test for this by pushing down on the rim of the cartridge coming out of the magazine just enough to center it in the opening.  By design 44 WCF has a very generous rim and Starline brass faithfully copies this rim. It is possible that other brass manufacturers are not a exacting in their standards so the rim doesn't catch.

 

How does the rim diameter and the diameter of the case just forward of the rim compare between your dummy rounds and the Starline brass?.

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With ten rounds the magazine spring will be near fully compressed, possibly pushing bullets into cases. Lighter springs should be available.

I was wondering about that RCBS Cowboy die set and if you are using the 44-40 expander plug (.428) or 44 Russian/Spl/Mag (.430). Then when you say the bullets are Missouri 44-40 specific, do you mean .427-8? The question is whether neck tension is compatible with the bullet or vice versa.

The other question  is whether the snap cap bullet profile is the critical dimension. I know from my Lightning .357 that I have to avoid bullets with any type of leading band. The curvature of the bullet must start immediately after the crimp for complete reliability. The slightest corner in the profile can mean occasional jams. The bullet in your pictures has a flat band in front of the crimp.

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OK Folks, pay attention to the OPs photographs.  The ammunition is NOT too short.  The rifle is badly OUT OF TIME.  If you all will notice, the cartridge rim is bang up against the cartridge guide tab at the bottom of the Breach Block.  

 

The Breach Block (Bolt) MUST retract fully into the frame BEFORE the cartridge rim comes up against the guide tab.  The rifle is OUT of TIME.  It will eventually break the guide tab OFF.  Rifle needs to be correctly timed.

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OK Folks, pay attention to the OPs photographs.  The ammunition is NOT too short.  The rifle is badly OUT OF TIME.  If you all will notice, the cartridge rim is bang up against the cartridge guide tab at the bottom of the Breach Block.  

 

The Breach Block (Bolt) MUST retract fully into the frame BEFORE the cartridge rim comes up against the guide tab.  The rifle is OUT of TIME.  It will eventually break the guide tab OFF.  Rifle needs to be correctly timed.

 

Not to disagree in any way, but how does that explain the fact that he can run the snap caps through the gun without issue?

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OK Folks, pay attention to the OPs photographs.  The ammunition is NOT too short.  The rifle is badly OUT OF TIME.  If you all will notice, the cartridge rim is bang up against the cartridge guide tab at the bottom of the Breach Block.  

 

The Breach Block (Bolt) MUST retract fully into the frame BEFORE the cartridge rim comes up against the guide tab.  The rifle is OUT of TIME.  It will eventually break the guide tab OFF.  Rifle needs to be correctly timed.

On my Navy Arms M1860 Henry, the cartridge guide tab retracts fully into the receiver when the bolt is open.  The head of the cartridge is stopped by the receiver wall.  The extractor does project a little from the front of the receiver wall with the bolt fully retracted.  I cannot tell from the photos of Sam's rifle if this is the case with his, as the cartridges obscure the view.

 

OTOH, the toggle-link Henry rifle actions do not have a cartridge stop to keep the next round in the magazine from coming out of the magazine.  Thus the rifle depends on the round on the lifter to keep the rim of the round in the magazine from catching on the front of the lifter as the lifter moves upward in the receiver when the bolt is opened.  So O.A.L of the round on the lifter is important.  However... IF the lower edge of the lifter, where the bottom of the rim of the round in the magazine contacts the lifter, is beveled SLIGHTLY, the lifter can push the round back into the magazine enough to clear the vertical forward surface of the lifter as the lifter rises.  If the lifter is not beveled at all, there will be a problem.  That does NOT mean the O.A.L of the cartridge can be too short.  As far as smokeless powder rounds keeping the bullet from backing into the case, see my comments in the other posting on loading for smokeless. The sizing die MUST reduce the diameter of the case BELOW the base of the bullet, forming a "wasp waist" which keeps the bullet from telescoping back into the case. A good roll crimp is desirable, but generally won't prevent telescoping.

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   The factory should have already taken care of this.

I know it will mess with any chance you have for warranty work, but yer warranty a'int working so take or send it to a gunsmith familar with the 1860 and include  rounds if face to face or just your specs if mailed and let them set it up.  Many times issues with 44-40 have made their way into my shop, they were varied in reason but all were resolved. If you can find the perfect ammo set up great. If Winchester, Magtech, or Black Hills 44-40 cowboy rounds won't work it's not right.

Joe West

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Tyrel, There are dimensional and weight differences between the Snap Cap and actual cartridges.  Without having it in my hands, I can't explain the Snap Caps.  I don't care what it does with snap caps, it must run with real cartridges.

 

Trailrider, OP does not mention a problem with Turtles.

 

The rifle is out of time.

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OK Folks, pay attention to the OPs photographs.  The ammunition is NOT too short.  The rifle is badly OUT OF TIME.  If you all will notice, the cartridge rim is bang up against the cartridge guide tab at the bottom of the Breach Block.  

 

The Breach Block (Bolt) MUST retract fully into the frame BEFORE the cartridge rim comes up against the guide tab.  The rifle is OUT of TIME.  It will eventually break the guide tab OFF.  Rifle needs to be correctly timed.

I'm in the midst of a big photoshop project and took a break from a mind-numbing task to enhance these three OP images.

 

Based on the first image below, it appears you're correct, CC. Now take a look at the second image where the bolt is fully retracted. A little movement of the lever when the pic was taken could account for the protruding bolt. Without handling the rifle, it'd be difficult to tell about the timing.

 

I'm also looking at the sharp edges of the carrier which appear to be gouged in the last photo. Does that suggest anything amiss with the carrier?

 

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Sam, look at the 1st picture you posted: the round is not up to the face of the bold and the extracter is not hooked into rim of the live round on the carrier ... you need longer COL's on your reloads .... and put a good crimp on them 

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I will compile and take everything under advisement listed out so far as potential fixes.  And through process of elimination attempt each fix / solution.  I did just buy 100 cases of Winchester brass so we will see if that makes a difference in the tests while I am waiting the factory ammo to arrive.  I will submit my report once I complete the scientific process.  I hope I find a winner in the process.  
 

Thank you all for the guidance in this matter!

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OK Folks, pay attention to the OPs photographs.  The ammunition is NOT too short.  The rifle is badly OUT OF TIME.  If you all will notice, the cartridge rim is bang up against the cartridge guide tab at the bottom of the Breach Block.  

 

The Breach Block (Bolt) MUST retract fully into the frame BEFORE the cartridge rim comes up against the guide tab.  The rifle is OUT of TIME.  It will eventually break the guide tab OFF.  Rifle needs to be correctly timed.

 

That's what it looks like to me. Every picture has the bolt head exposed and what looks like the rim hitting the tab.

 

 

Not to disagree in any way, but how does that explain the fact that he can run the snap caps through the gun without issue?

 

if you are running the snap caps with the barrel pointed in a downward position they can slide forward enough to clear the protruding tab. 

Take some off the lifter arm where it contacts the lever.  That will slow the lifter enough to allow the bolt to fully retract before the carrier fully rises. 

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To check the timing:  Using the case with the largest rim diameter, load one round in the magazine.  With the gun pointed up about 45 degrees, open the lever very slowly while looking at the rim verses the bolt tab position.  The rim SHOULD just clear the bolt tab (cartridge guide).  If it just barely touches the tab, remove a little more metal from the lifter arm where it is touchdown by the lever (as suggested by Nate Kiowa Jones above).

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