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Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967

Good Grief... Dog Tags??

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This is unbelievable... no more dog tags embossed with passages of scripture:

 

Army says faith-based group can no longer put Bible verses on dog tags after complaint

 

These appear to be separate "dog tags," not the issued items. They can be worn on the dog tag chain - or on their own chain.  But someone got butt-hurt and bitched about it - and the military sez "no mo'."  Evidently the complaint seems to be because the tags bear a bit of scripture on one side and a military logo or unit identifier on the other.  Good grief....   doh!.gif

 

 

 

 

 

 

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My Navy dog tags said “NO REL PREF” for “no religious preference”. If you had a preference they stamped it on the tags but there were no substitute tags or any other item to be attached to your issued dog tags. We had guys with Protestant, Catholic and Muslim stamped on their tags. I went NRP because I figured it wouldn’t really matter who was praying over my sorry carcass should I get blown up or munched on by sea animals. Any Devine help would be gladly accepted. ;):)
 

That was ‘79-‘83.

 

I don’t understand why anyone would get upset if someone else had something on their tags that was authorized by the military.  But then scum shows up everywhere these days. 

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My Navy dog tags said “NO REL PREF” for “no religious preference”. If you had a preference they stamped it on the tags but there were no substitute tags or any other item to be attached to your issued dog tags. We had guys with Protestant, Catholic and Muslim stamped on their tags. I went NRP because I figured it wouldn’t really matter who was praying over my sorry carcass should I get blown up or munched on by sea animals. Any Devine help would be gladly accepted. ;):)
 

That was ‘79-‘83.

 

I don’t understand why anyone would get upset if someone else had something on their tags that was authorized by the military.  But then scum shows up everywhere these days. 

 

OK...how's this?

 

LL

Devine.jpg

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OK...how's this?

 

LL

Devine.jpg

Uh...not Andy Devine...:P

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My Navy dog tags said “NO REL PREF” for “no religious preference”.

My dog tags (1966-1989) didn't have any scripture written on them, (I know this may come as a big surprise to many here) but my tags did have stamped on them "SO BAPTIST." 

 

Isn't having one's Christian denomination stamped on one's personal dog tags more blatantly advocating a particular religion than having a scripture verse?

 

IN GOD WE TRUST

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If I said what I thought I'd get a long time out. :angry::angry::angry::angry::angry::angry::angry::angry::angry::angry::angry::angry::angry::angry::angry::angry::angry::angry::angry::angry::angry::angry::angry::angry::angry::angry::angry::angry:

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I'm acquainted with a certain local pastor.  Really fine gentleman, who had served as an Army Chaplain, I believe in both Viet Nam and later Korea.

 

While visiting one afternoon, I was admiring his collection of stoles.  He selected one - black, with gold appointments - and said that it had been with him since his early Chaplain days.  But was no longer "legal."  You see, it had both the officer's insignia and a cross on each end.  Clearly a violation of the First Amendment* (in someone else's judgement, not his!) and are no longer permitted.  

 

BUT! he continued... whenever he officiated at a veteran's funeral, he made darn sure that was the one he wore.  I snapped a picture....

 

Like I said - a really fine gentleman.  

 

 

1103143033_Stole-PastorBert.thumb.jpg.8e532a1060db30557b091caf2246687c.jpg

 

*Does no one ever notice the "Free Exercise" clause of the First Amendment??  

 

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

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Too many people haven't read it.  All they know is the dumbed down "freedom of religion" misquote.   Which drastically changes the meaning.  The Soviet Union guaranteed "freedom of religion. "  but damned if you could practice it. 

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I really don't give a hang how someone else want's to worship or whatever... they have a right to do so* so let 'em have at it.

 

*I do draw the line at sacrificing puppies or little children.  Not sure 'bout an odd virgin or two...  

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Too many people haven't read it.  All they know is the dumbed down "freedom of religion" misquote.   Which drastically changes the meaning.  The Soviet Union guaranteed "freedom of religion. "  but damned if you could practice it. 

The morons actually believe it’s “freedom from religion”. 
 

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I'm trying to figure this one out. So, they're shaped like a dog tag, and service members put them on the same chain as their issued ID tags? The article leaves a bit to be desired, but unless the military is asserting the service members cannot wear them on the same chain as their official ID tags, I'm trying to understand how this runs afoul of AR 670-1 and comparable regs elsewhere. Even if they are place on the same chain as the ID tags, I don't understand the problem. The Army regs have long allowed members to wear religious jewelry, so long as it is "neat, conservative and discreet."

https://www.armystudyguide.com/content/Prep_For_Basic_Training/Prep_for_basic_uniforms/religious-items.shtml

 

IF and that is a BIG if, a commanding officer purchased them for their entire unit and insisted they be worn, that is one thing, and would be an issue for an IG complaint, but that is not what I am reading here. Weinstein and the MRFF (Boy, can I think up some optional meanings for those initials) have gone out of their way to create havoc. This one seems over the top, if a service member can no longer voluntarily wear something of religious significance to them, purchased by them with their own funds.

 

To quote Thomas Jefferson,

 

"But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket, nor breaks my leg."

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Doc, I think the "issue" is that they reverse of the dog tag has a branch or unit logo:

 

image.jpeg.8fbc013af250f8e35ea91a60730b9b3a.jpeg

 

I'm just disgusted at the pettiness that some people exercise.  Someone's upset because someone else is wearing something (likely unseen) that they don't like?  Really??   raised-eyebrow.gif

 

As my dear, late friend Doxna would have said, "Big Fuzzy Ducks!"  :angry:

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Doc, I think the "issue" is that they reverse of the dog tag has a branch or unit logo:

 

image.jpeg.8fbc013af250f8e35ea91a60730b9b3a.jpeg

 

I'm just disgusted at the pettiness that some people exercise.  Someone's upset because someone else is wearing something (likely unseen) that they don't like?  Really??   raised-eyebrow.gif

 

As my dear, late friend Doxna would have said, "Big Fuzzy Ducks!"  :angry:

 

So, is the claim that having the Army / Navy / Air Force / Marine logo on the reverse side acts as a tacit endorsement of said religious faith? That is a stretch in my book. As was previously pointed out, ID tags already list the religious affiliation, or lack thereof, of choice. How does allowing a tag with the military logo and verse go beyond that? Oh, wait, I'm expecting reason and a bit of common sense out of them. Never mind. 

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Where I work there is a Muslim man than keeps a copy of the Quran on his workstation. It is not there for show. This book has definitely been used. It’s dog eared and banged up a bit. 
Another man left a Holy Bible out on his tool box. A man that works in a completely different department (while standing next to the Muslim man’s workstation where his Quran is lying out in the open - no one else was within earshot) says to me “Did you know James had a Bible in his toolbox?”
I said “No, but so what?”

He said “Well, some people might find that offensive.”

I said, in a raised voice and with anger on my face (I will be using acronyms, abbreviations and symbols so as not to get a time out)

”XXX do you care? Are you offended?”

Man shakes head no.

”Why the $&@% are you bringing it up then?”

”Well, I just thought...”

”You just thought what? You’d stir up some petty drama? You’d just cause trouble over something that doesn’t offend you?”

”Well, no, I...”

”What about this Quran, does it offend you?”

”Well no. Mo is Muslim. He...”

”Oh, do it’s okay for Mo to leave his Quran out but it’s not okay for James to leave his Bible out. Is that it? Are you discriminating on James because of his religion? Do you not like James because he is black? How come you aren’t saying the same things about Mo’s Quran? Are you offended by that but afraid to say something because he is Muslim?”

Man shakes his head nervously and has fear in his eyes (I can be intimidating when I am a little angry)

”Are you afraid Mo is a terrorist and will blow your @$$ up if he finds out you don’t like him leaving his Quran out? How come you don’t think James might be offended by you singling him out? Do you even have a clue about what you are inferring? Do I need to get your manager down here so we can send you off to training on workplace rules and etiquette? What exactly is it you want to accomplish here?”

Silence...

Report back to your work area and don’t ever come to me with this horse$#!% again! Understand me?”

”Yes.”

”You May go.”

 

Now, in reality where I work I could have gotten in trouble for talking to him like that. And, more than likely, some dipstick would have recommended that I go to “sensitivity training” which I would have not gone to. Also, the man would have been placated and soothed and had his arse kissed profoundly, but see, he is a weak mealy-mouthed man but he rides a Harley so in his mind he’s a “tough guy”. His ego wouldn’t allow the above to occur. 
 

I work in a public agency full of these idiots. 
 

What the world needs is a wake up call. This sensitive, manipulative silliness needs to go and needs to be kicked into oblivion but no one in our government, our society, has the balls to act. 
 

I do my part at work in a very small way but I am but one guy. I retire in 3 years. I just don’t give a &@$% any more.  

 

 

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It's a really strange culture that has taken root in America. With the politicalization  of the media and its full on endorsement of the progressive ideology there is a a group that has been given tacit permission to declare themselves judge, jury and executioner of what is permissible to think, say or do. Anything else is to immediately be attacked and destroyed.They are hell bent to remove anything they disagree with and their minds are totally closed.

 

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So, is the claim that having the Army / Navy / Air Force / Marine logo on the reverse side acts as a tacit endorsement of said religious faith? That is a stretch in my book. As was previously pointed out, ID tags already list the religious affiliation, or lack thereof, of choice. How does allowing a tag with the military logo and verse go beyond that? Oh, wait, I'm expecting reason and a bit of common sense out of them. Never mind. 

Weird. The Army has commissioned chaplins of several faiths. They wear  the symbol of their faith i full view on their uniform. is that ot a tacit endorsement?? Society is getting either too complex or too stupid for me to fathom it anymore.

Chalain Hindu.jpg

chaplain-Christian.jpg

Chaplain Muslim.jpg

Chaplain Jewish.jpg

Edited by Utah Bob #35998
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>The Army has commissioned chaplins of several faiths. They wear  the symbol of their faith i full view on their uniform<

 

That's what I thought. That's why Hardpan's post about the chaplain's stole no longer being legal was so puzzling.

 

He can wear his uniform, with a Christian cross on it, but can't have a Christian cross on his vestments?

 

Weird.

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It's a really strange culture that has taken root in America. With the politicalization  of the media and its full on endorsement of the progressive ideology there is a a group that has been given tacit permission to declare themselves judge, jury and executioner of what is permissible to think, say or do. Anything else is to immediately be attacked and destroyed.They are hell bent to remove anything they disagree with and their minds are totally closed.

 

Like Nazis or Communists.

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This has been an ongoing issue since at least the 1960s. How much can an American soldier’s uniform, or any official DoD item, reflect a certain religion?  

 

How much can the military “require”?  Chapel attendance during basic training used to be compulsory, as was chapel attendance at West Point.  Both activities are now optional. 

 

How much jewelry reflecting personal expression of faith is allowed?  Small necklaces used to be allowed, as long as they were invisible when in uniform. Not so much any more. 

 

What about hairstyles and head coverings?  Absolutely nothing was allowed for years.  Now we see yamakas and Sikh headgear in uniform. 

 

During Desert Shield/Storm, Army chaplains were required to remove their faith identifiers and were called “morale officers”. 

 

Veterans headstones now have myriad options for faith symbols. 

 

Discussions have gone gone on for years about how many chaplains of what faith should be allowed, how should they be distributed to the units, and how should they be promoted. 

 

Personally, I think it’s humorous how a thing such as the tags in the OP can cause groups to get so butt hurt. If a $2 metal stamping is all it takes to offend someone, or it’s removal is all it takes to offend someone, then I got nothing to help you. 

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How much can an American soldier’s uniform, or any official DoD item, reflect a certain religion?  

JMO: If you're sending people into hazardous situations, they ought be able to carry anything that brings them comfort.

Wasn't the original intent of the religious preference to let survivors know what ritual to follow if the soldier died?  It's important to some religions.

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JMO: If you're sending people into hazardous situations, they ought be able to carry anything that brings them comfort.

Wasn't the original intent of the religious preference to let survivors know what ritual to follow if the soldier died?  It's important to some religions.

I’m sure if you go back far enough, the issue was whether the soldier was Protestant or “Papist”. Funeral formats are very important, or offensive, to certain individuals. 

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I remember one Personnel Inspection aboard ship the Division Officer told everyone to display their dog tags. We knew we were hosed at this point because if we got an overall outstanding we got an extra day of liberty in Naples Italy. Someone without dog tags would ruin our chance much to my surprise we all had our dog tags on. I always wore mine but some guys didn’t.
Anyway, Artie had a gold ring on his dog tag chain. 
Our DO said “Artie, that ring is UA” ( unauthorized)

Artie said “This is my Grandmother’s ring. She told to keep it on me and it would keep me safe. She prayed over this ring for me, Sir.”

Our DO said “Seaman, if you get hurt and we need to take your dog tags we cannot be responsible for a list gold ring.”

Artie responded “Sir, if you are pulling my dog tags that means one is getting mashed between my teeth and the other is going in your pocket. I don’t much think I will care about getting my ring back at that point, do you, Lieutenant?”

Everyone chuckled. 
The DO laughed and said “I guess not.”

 

We got the “Outstanding” and an extra day of liberty. We all agreed that if anything ever happened to Artie we’d make sure his family got that ring back. :)

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Needing a set of replacement tags due the the army changing their system while I was at FT Devens in 69, I went to the S1 office one gloomy Massachusetts day. After putting up with bs administrative military rigamarole for about an hour when I wanted to be doing something else, I finally got to the weasely clerk doing the dog tags stamping down in the basement. 
 

He looked at my paperwork and officiously informed me that I could no longer put Protestant on the tag. “It has to be an organized religion, Sir. Either that, or I put None”. Remember Lily Tomlin as the phone operator on Laugh-in? Picture her as a male, pasty faced, bespectacled, army personnel clerk.
I closed my eyes, took stock of my supply of mental straws, and noted this was the last one. “Bullshit”, I said, smiling.

The weasel called his weasel boss over to confirm, which he did. He also outranked me.... technically. :angry:

Though about as far from a devout fella as one can imagine, I had a vision of being near death’s door on a far away battlefield. The chaplain leans close, pulls my dog tags out, sees on it ”none” , and says “Well. You don’t need me, Son.” and moves on to the next unfortunate. So I figured I’d hedge my bet and go for a bonified organized religion


Dropping that last mental straw, I looked the pair of weasels straight in their 8 eyes and said, “Then put Moslem on it”.

(That’s how we spelled it back in the day when Beijing was Peiping and Mumbai was Bombay)

So with a nod from his weasel boss, he did. I left, feeling...exotic.

I still have those tags.

Edited by Utah Bob #35998
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