Good grief... new Ubertis!

[Sixgun Sheridan]

I was just in a large gun shop yesterday that had a whole bunch of Cimarron and Uberti Single Action clones, in every finish and barrel length imaginable. At first I thought I was in hog heaven, but when I started looking at them I noticed three things: 1) the triggers are all MIM with obvious sprue marks on them, 2) none have the four clicks anymore, and 3) worst of all the springs inside are so light they all felt like cocking a toy cap gun! Ewwwwwww!!!

 

I guess none of that means a thing for CAS, but for somebody like me who wants a Colt six-shooter replica "just because" they were all a huge disappointment. The good news is the actual fit and lockups seemed really good, but I can't own something like that without putting in an older four-clicks hammer and restoring stronger springs.

.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

First time I've heard of anyone complaining that Uberti's springs are too light!

[Rocky Dog]

Hey Sixgun, and all..

 

Ill dovetail on yr post as it has to do w evaluating Ubertis...

 

as you , I have  jones for SAA revolvers, but I cant afford a Colt... the Ubertis look great and I was going to post here looking for opinions..

 

Im not a cowboy action shooter, but am aware most like the built like a tank aspect of the Vaquero..

 

I spoke w Jim at Long Hunt asking about the Taylors&Co Smoke Wagon ( since its Uberti ) and he quite honestly spoke very highly of it.. granted they do tuning , honing, replace springs and more.. I would be looking at the .357 and he said they can handle the load, albeit Id likely reload custom recipes and not a steady diet of high power loads..

 

He did confirm they are only 3 click because of the hammer pin safety config, but said theyre fine quality and the sell as many as the Vaquero..

 

so Ill be anxious to minitor replies from the SASS community as  probably the most qualified re: the modern Ubertis

 

- Mark ( Rocky Frisco if I join SASS )

[Sixgun Sheridan]

14 minutes ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

First time I've heard of anyone complaining that Uberti's springs are too light!

 

Like I said... if you're a CAS shooter you'll probably like 'em that way. But guys like me who know that Wyatt Earp never had light springs in his SAA or a short-stroke kit in his Winchester would prefer a more original feel.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

If your interest runs more toward reenacting, historical replication, you're probably in the wrong place.  This is, after all, the SASS WIRE.

[Rye Miles #13621]

Pietta still makes the regular 4 click no hammer pin safety thingy! 

[Rocky Dog]

for what its worth, Jim at LongHunt did specifically mention to stay away from Pietta ( Chiappa even worse ) as notably inferior and inconsistent quality..  I dont mean to rankle in any way.. - no offense intended! —just trying to glean what I can from you who have experience before ploppin’ down my hard earned moolah 

[Warden Callaway]

5 minutes ago, Rocky Dog said:

for what its worth, Jim at LongHunt did specifically mention to stay away from Pietta ( Chiappa even worse ) as notably inferior and inconsistent quality..  I dont mean to rankle in any way.. - no offense intended! —just trying to glean what I can from you who have experience before ploppin’ down my hard earned moolah 

 

Does he sale Piettas? 

[Captain Bill Burt]

6 minutes ago, Rocky Dog said:

for what its worth, Jim at LongHunt did specifically mention to stay away from Pietta ( Chiappa even worse ) as notably inferior and inconsistent quality..  I dont mean to rankle in any way.. - no offense intended! —just trying to glean what I can from you who have experience before ploppin’ down my hard earned moolah 

You could have the best of both worlds.  Buy a pair of Ruger Vaqueros and ship them off to Jimmy Spurs for a complete race job.   They'll come back without the pesky transfer bars, with a half cock, and they make all the little clicks people like for some reason.  As a bonus, as has been mentioned, they'll be built like tanks and last longer than you will.  Even with the cost of the action jobs they'll still be cheaper than Colts, and they won't break as often either. 

[Tyrel Cody]

I will respectfully IGNORE  Jim's suggestion. 

Never had the first bit of trouble out of a Pietta and I wouldn't give a plug nickel for the new Uberti's. 

 

As a matter of fact the Alchimistas(Pietta) from EMF are pretty much ready iut of the box and the Californians are pretty good too.

 

 

[Cat Brules]

I DON’T like (EITHER) the idea of a non-“Colt” 3-click cock-trigger-firing mechanism.   That, along with putting a safety, beyond the “original” first-click safety in the cocking sequence, makes the weapon unacceptable to me.

 

Also, I don’t know what a M/M trigger is. 

 

Cat Brules

[Rocky Dog]

@warden.. I don’t see Piettas at Longhunt, and duly noted, tnx.  Ill check out the Alchemistas too 

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

29 minutes ago, Sixgun Sheridan said:

 

Like I said... if you're a CAS shooter you'll probably like 'em that way. But guys like me who know that Wyatt Earp never had light springs in his SAA or a short-stroke kit in his Winchester would prefer a more original feel.

You know this? You have worked the action of every Colt Wyatt ever owned?

 

If you really like the current crop of Uberti's, and there's not a whole lot to dislike these days as they have really upped their game, and you want the 4 click, there are two options. You can get the old model BP frame guns, which are currently still being made with the 4 click hammer (and if you are going for a Wyatt gun then most of his would have been BP frame), or you can replace the hammer and trigger with the old style. I have done this with half a dozen new cimarrons and they drop right in with little to no fitting making them work just like they used to.

[The Aggie Rifleman, SASS#55213]

4 minutes ago, Cat Brules said:

I DON’T like (EITHER) the idea of a non-“Colt” 3-click cock-trigger-firing mechanism.   That, along with putting a safety, beyond the “original” first-click safety in the cocking sequence, makes the weapon unacceptable to me.

 

Also, I don’t know what a M/M trigger is. 

 

Cat Brules

Metal Injection Molding (MIM) is a metal manufacturing method.  It is a rapidly growing segment of metal component manufacturing and is being used for firearm applications, to the dislike of many.

 

 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

4 minutes ago, The Aggie Rifleman, SASS#55213 said:

Metal Injection Molding (MIM) is a metal manufacturing method.  It is a rapidly growing segment of metal component manufacturing and is being used for firearm applications, to the dislike of many.

 

 

 

What is the problem with it?

[The Aggie Rifleman, SASS#55213]

3 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

 

What is the problem with it?

MIM parts are cheaper and easier to make with modern methods when compared to older ones (machining, casting, stamping, etc).  Manufacturers like this. 

 

Some shooters will claim that MIM parts are weaker, more brittle, less reliable than originals.  Whether that is true is to be determined.  MIM has been used for lots of parts, even outside of the firearms industry.  Its a fairly safe bet that everyone's automobile is full of MIM parts.

 

If its going to break, its going to break is what I say.  I've had parts of all methods of manufacture break.  Things wear out and then are replaced.  It all comes down to what a person wants, and today if you want something affordable, especially if it is a part for a almost 150 year old design, MIM is the way to go (right or wrong).

 

[Waxahachie Kid #17017 L]

The Cimarron/Uberti models that have the black-powder frame, still have the 4 clicks, and the non-retractable firing pin. 

 

If you want the 3 click one, with a retractable firing pin, the smokeless frame model is the one you want.

 

Cimarron also states this on their website.  

 

I prefer the black-powder frame  models, myself.  But...that is me...not anyone else.   

 

There ya go.

 

My two bits.

W.K.

[Old Man Graybeard]

The last. Pair of Uberti’s I got were short stroked 357 Smoke wagons. One was the old 4click...but the other was a 3 click with the safety firing pin. As far as using them...couldn’t really tell a difference...until the firing pin on the new style didn’t want to come out to play anymore...in the middle of a bigger match. At least only had to take 1 miss. I took all the workings apart and made a spacer behind the pin. No more problem. But I am now shooting Bisley Vaquaro’s that have been worked over by Jimmy Spurs. I will try to get the old style hammer and trigger and convert the one to old style. Then I will have backups to my backup....or extras to get my son and grandson started.

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

1 hour ago, Tyrel Cody said:

I will respectfully IGNORE  Jim's suggestion. 

Never had the first bit of trouble out of a Pietta and I wouldn't give a plug nickel for the new Uberti's. 

 

As a matter of fact the Alchimistas(Pietta) from EMF are pretty much ready iut of the box and the Californians are pretty good too.

 

 

Yep, give me the Pietta's, GW II or the Cimarron Frontier for Colt replicas. But be careful there too, EMF has some models with transfer bars. Good Luck

[Sedalia Dave]

2 hours ago, Sixgun Sheridan said:

 

Like I said... if you're a CAS shooter you'll probably like 'em that way. But guys like me who know that Wyatt Earp never had light springs in his SAA or a short-stroke kit in his Winchester would prefer a more original feel.

 

Can't find it at the moment but gun modifications are not new.  Someone posted a link to a letter that Colt sent to Bat Masterson itemizing all the modifications he requested. IIRC lighter springs and a re-profiled hammer were a few of the things he had Colt do to his revolver before it left the factory.

 

People trusted their lives to the firearms they carried and doubly so if you were a gunslinger or lawman. Since time immemorial people have always sought to have an edge. Every weapon from clubs to hand held edged weapons to atalatals, to slingshots to long bows to cross bows to firearms is the result of somebody somewhere working to gain an edge over their competition. You could never convince me that gunsmiths didn't tinker with firearms to attain that edge.  

 

 

[Wyatt Earp SASS#1628L]

2 hours ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

You know this? You have worked the action of every Colt Wyatt ever owned?

 

If you really like the current crop of Uberti's, and there's not a whole lot to dislike these days as they have really upped their game, and you want the 4 click, there are two options. You can get the old model BP frame guns, which are currently still being made with the 4 click hammer (and if you are going for a Wyatt gun then most of his would have been BP frame), or you can replace the hammer and trigger with the old style. I have done this with half a dozen new cimarrons and they drop right in with little to no fitting making them work just like they used to.

OK guys, let me set the record straight, I DO have lighter springs in all three of my Colts, but no short strokes in any of my Winchesters (Uberti)

[Rye Miles #13621]

1 hour ago, Waxahachie Kid #17017 L said:

The Cimarron/Uberti models that have the black-powder frame, still have the 4 clicks, and the non-retractable firing pin. 

 

If you want the 3 click one, with a retractable firing pin, the smokeless frame model is the one you want.

 

Cimarron also states this on their website.  

 

I prefer the black-powder frame  models, myself.  But...that is me...not anyone else.   

 

There ya go.

 

My two bits.

W.K.

I’ll bet the reason Cimmaron has Ubertis with 4 clicks on their BP frames is because these are old stock. All new Ubertis have the new hammer safety. 

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

21 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

I’ll bet the reason Cimmaron has Ubertis with 4 clicks on their BP frames is because these are old stock. All new Ubertis have the new hammer safety. 

These aren't old stock guns. You will still get the 4 click hammers on bp frames made in 2019. Now whether the parts are old stock and Uberti is using them up in these models may be another question. I would call them up and ask, but I don't speak Italian

[Rocky Dog]

Hey Jefro.. since you note no issues w/ Pietta.. the Alchimistas look great! .. and avoid the Uberti trigger safety issue..  ! ..   and get that 4 click..  tnx! 

 

[Rye Miles #13621]

51 minutes ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

These aren't old stock guns. You will still get the 4 click hammers on bp frames made in 2019. Now whether the parts are old stock and Uberti is using them up in these models may be another question. I would call them up and ask, but I don't speak Italian

You can call Uberti USA!!

 

The gunsmith at Taylor's and a couple dealers here said ALL new Uberti's are fitted with the new hammer safety. The bp frame guns could be using old stock otherwise why would they change? I thought they changed to avoid the extra long base pin for safety (lawyer) reasons. (????)

 

Now I have to find out. I'll call Uberti USA and if I have to I'll call Italy! After all I am Italian but I only know some words (Lots of bad ones)

[Doc Coles SASS 1188]

6 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

If your interest runs more toward reenacting, historical replication, you're probably in the wrong place.  This is, after all, the SASS WIRE.

I disagree.  There are lots of ways to play this game and if folks want to shoot a gun with the original feel of a Colt, there is room under the SASS tent for them.  Saying otherwise is a good way to drive folks away, which does not make much sense in light of all the posts asking “how do we bring people to the sport?”  
 

As for what is period, my 1890 cavalry model with all original parts has a stout mainspring.  They wanted to make sure it went off no matter what!

 

I have been shooting SASS for more than 30 years and I too dislike the feel of the new uberti action design.  For me it’s a design only a lawyer could love.  I am lucky to have Colts and a couple of older model Italian guns, but I have so far passed on one of the new 1862 conversions as I was told by uberti that it has the new action.  

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

4 hours ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

...The gunsmith at Taylor's and a couple dealers here said ALL new Uberti's are fitted with the new hammer safety. ...

 

Well, guess you should have called Cimarron instead.   They continue to import BP-framed Model P's with the standard action, including a line of BP-framed Evil Roys. 

How long this will continue is anybody's guess, but they will do so as long as they can.  It's all about contracts, money, lawyers, lawsuits, and who pays the insurance.  I'd been wanting a charcoal blue 7th Cavalry for a long time, so when they got some in recently I thought I better get one while I still can with the standard action.

 

 

 

[Rye Miles #13621]

 

 

Well, guess you should have called Cimarron instead.   They continue to import BP-framed Model P's with the standard action, including a line of BP-framed Evil Roys. 

How long this will continue is anybody's guess, but they will do so as long as they can.  It's all about contracts, money, lawyers, lawsuits, and who pays the insurance.  I'd been wanting a charcoal blue 7th Cavalry for a long time, so when they got some in recently I thought I better get one while I still can with the standard action.

 

 

 

They're working with old stock that they have left!

[Yellowhouse Sam # 25171]

All this time I thought MIM stood for Made in Mexico!

[Stump Water]

 

 

Can't find it at the moment but gun modifications are not new.  Someone posted a link to a letter that Colt sent to Bat Masterson itemizing all the modifications he requested. IIRC lighter springs and a re-profiled hammer were a few of the things he had Colt do to his revolver before it left the factory.

 

People trusted their lives to the firearms they carried and doubly so if you were a gunslinger or lawman. Since time immemorial people have always sought to have an edge. Every weapon from clubs to hand held edged weapons to atalatals, to slingshots to long bows to cross bows to firearms is the result of somebody somewhere working to gain an edge over their competition. You could never convince me that gunsmiths didn't tinker with firearms to attain that edge.  

 

 

 

Once upon a time I had a book (titled Guns of the Gunfighters, or something like that) that detailed all of the "customizations" that pistoleros of the day made to their guns.  They did things like cutting out the front of the trigger guard or removing it completely; filing off the sear or removing the trigger altogether. 

 

"No external mods" rule not applicable.  Instead, as Dave said, "what gives me an edge".

 

 

[McCandless]

Patent model for the Schenck Hair Trigger Device

F. Schenck on San Antonio, Texas was a firearms designer, inventor, and gunsmith, who developed several improvements and modifications to the Colt Single Action revolvers. The Hair Trigger device,  or his lockwork modifications, could be special ordered from the Colt factory or bought directly from his gun shop in San Antonio.

 

The Freund Brothers, gunsmiths who followed the railroad and set up shop in "Hell on Wheels" encampments across the country, were offering various "go fast" modifications in Wyoming and Colorado at the same time as Schenck was offering his modifications, in Texas. It seems that then, as now, some wanted a pistol that went beyond, "box stock".

 

 

[McCandless]

Bass Outlaw's "Slip" Gun

This remarkable "belly gun" was originally a Colt Single Action Model 1873, serial number 42870, manufactured in 1878, with a 7-1/2" barrel, and chambered in .44-40. It has been severely modified.

It was used in one documented killing but bears notches carved into the front of the frame that suggest three more. The term “belly gun” was the Old West nickname for any concealable handgun intended for point-blank use. The origin of the name was for "any kind of hardware you jam against another man’s naval and trigger off a burst.”

Outlaw’s belly gun has the customary shortened barrel, 3 inches long in this case, for easy concealability and a fast draw. The ejector mechanism would be useless on such a short barrel, so the entire assembly is removed. This lightens the pistol slightly and further reduces the chances of snagging on the draw.

On Outlaw’s pistol, the gunsmith went a step further step to save weight and also removed the portion of the frame on the right side that supported the ejector shroud. He fitted the pistol with an extra-long cylinder pin with an enlarged knurled gripping surface that could be used to knock the empty cases from the cylinder.

The gunsmith replaced the tiny cylinder-pin locking screw typical of first-generation Colt 1873s with a larger thumbscrew that could be manipulated easily without tools. Also common is the lack of a front sight. A front sight isn’t needed and can get snagged and slow down the draw.

The front of the trigger guard was also removed, the trigger guard is just something else to get in the way of your finger finding the trigger, and removing it simplifies and speeds up that all-important first shot. This is where Outlaw’s belly gun gets really interesting... the trigger is missing. It wasn’t lost or broken. It was removed so that the pistol would fire simply by working the hammer. This is as fast as a single-action can be, and it’s sometimes referred to as a “slip gun.”

The abbreviated rear trigger guard serves to stabilize and point the pistol. It is also fitted with the larger "Army" grip frame, presumably for the same reason. A snub-nosed .44-40 is a handful to hang onto under recoil.

The hole for the trigger was plugged and soldered over, and the gun was nickel-plated. Take away the trigger and the Colt 1873 loses its half and full-cock. To load and unload, you have to hold the hammer back while you line up the cylinder chambers with the loading gate. You have to hold the cylinder in alignment, too, or else it will turn. Bass had to be very careful not to let the hammer slip from his grip during these operations.

The result of the modification is that the Colt 1873 can be discharged shockingly fast. For reflexive shooting at point-blank range, Outlaw’s belly gun would have given him a split-second edge.

If the hammer was released before it was drawn back through the full range of movement needed to completely rotate the cylinder, the cylinder wouldn’t rotate all the way around and the hammer would fall on the side of the primer. This could either cause a misfire, or Bass might find the bullet missing the forcing cone and crashing into the junction of barrel and frame. That might lead to a blown-up gun and injury to the shooter or bystanders.

To become proficient with such a gun, Bass must have practiced, loaded and unloaded, countless times. If those 4 notches are meaningful, he became quite deadly with this tool.

  

 

[Rocky Dog]

I knew I was coming to the right place for info.. with the advice that current Pietas are not a quality issue.. the Alchimistas and Cimarron Frontier get me the close to the Colt SAA, without the damn Uberti trigger safety !

 

[Muley Gil SASS # 57795]

Bat's letter to Colt. Here tis:

 

During the course of his career as a lawman and gambler, Bat ordered a total of eight single-action revolvers from Colt’s. The most notable was an order made from Dodge City and written on Opera House Saloon stationary in July 1885 which stated:

Gents
Please send Me one of your nickel plated short .45 calibre revolvers. It is for my own use and for that reason I would like to have a little Extra pains taken with it. I am willing to pay Extra for Extra work. Make it very Easy on the trigger and have the front Sight a little higher and thicker than the ordinary pistol of this Kind. Put on a gutta percha handle and send it as soon as possible, have the barrel about the same length that the ejector rod is.

Truly Yours
W B Masterson
P.S. Duplicate the above order by sending 2

 

https://www.tactical-life.com/firearms/bat-mastersons-colt-saa/

 

 

[Warden Callaway]

 

Bat's letter to Colt. Here tis:

 

During the course of his career as a lawman and gambler, Bat ordered a total of eight single-action revolvers from Colt’s. The most notable was an order made from Dodge City and written on Opera House Saloon stationary in July 1885 which stated:

Gents
Please send Me one of your nickel plated short .45 calibre revolvers. It is for my own use and for that reason I would like to have a little Extra pains taken with it. I am willing to pay Extra for Extra work. Make it very Easy on the trigger and have the front Sight a little higher and thicker than the ordinary pistol of this Kind. Put on a gutta percha handle and send it as soon as possible, have the barrel about the same length that the ejector rod is.

Truly Yours
W B Masterson
P.S. Duplicate the above order by sending 2

 

https://www.tactical-life.com/firearms/bat-mastersons-colt-saa/