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The Coconino Pistolero, SASS # 72432

Winter Range 2020 Long Range announcement

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I want to welcome you to Winter Range 2020 Long Range that will happen Rain or Shine on February 26, 2020.  In this post I want to update you on long range items and concerns relayed to me in the shooter comments.

Long Range Volunteers:

This is the most important thing I want to bring up.  Without volunteers there would not be ANY side match events.  One of the common items I read from the shooter post-match comments is that we need knowledgeable volunteers for long range.  There are dedicated long range volunteers that I each and every year that do a great job and Long Range at Winter Range could not happen.  Most of them also shoot the long range event.

All the above is true, and it is from the folks that sign up for long range that I am asking for volunteers.  You folks are the most knowledgeable about spotting and helping the shooter. 

We are presently calling up folks signed up for Winter Range 2020 to volunteer. As of last Friday we had 21 signed up volunteers and need 110+ to put on the side matches 

IM or email me to volunteer for side matches.

Range Safety:

ALL the SASS firearm handling rules apply to long range.  In particular, that means uncasing firearms safely at the line or muzzle up while behind the line.  Carry firearms muzzle up until returned to your guncart or case.

If you need to check or make adjustments to your firearm move down to the practice table and do what is needed at the firing line.  NOT at the tables under the overhead cover.

 

Battlesights and the Bucky O’Neill event:

Listed in the rifle requirements included in the score book is the following. - SHOOTERS MUST HAVE AND USE BARREL MOUNTED MILSPEC (Military Specified) BATTLE SIGHTS ONLY APPROPRIATE FOR THEIR RIFLE OR CARBINE

There has been some confusion about this so I post the definition of battle sight from the manual for the M 1903 Springfield.  I draw your attention to the last sentence where is states the battle sight is used with the leaf down and using the battle sight notch.  This page from TM 9-1270 3 will be included in the scorebook.

 

Battlesight zero.jpg

 

Take No Prisoners:

Flatulent Fred is bringing his cowboy targets again!  We are providing nice winner awards this year.  Statue for 1st Place and buckles for 2nd and 3rd.  Yeehaw!

Also there were comments about needing better spotters for TNP. TNP shooters make the best spotters.  Enough said.

 

Quigley:

Many more hits at the 385 m position.  Three shooters with 2 hits and ten folks with one hit.

Other changes:

We will be adding downrange wind flags to the 300 yard and 500 m bays.

I am requesting purchase of a higher quality spotting scope for the 300 yard events.

 

 

Other shooter comments from the questionnaire:

Shooters can’t drive to Quigley and Bison events. 

Yes, you can.  Plenty of parking.  We are working on parking for the events at the 300 yard bay.

 

Spotting scope for practice target. 

We have the scopes and what we need are volunteers to man the practice position.  Please volunteer.

 

Confusion about how to queue for long range events.

There are large signs explaining how to do it.  You line up behind the adobe wall positions and move forward when vacant.  Get prepared and when ready to shoot hold up your shooter card for the timer operator and let them know what event you are shooting.  Don’t give your card to the spotter or recorder.  They are busy.

I have questions about ranges and round count.

These questions are answered here:

http://winterrange.com/longrange.html

This information is also included in the score book.

Finally:

Folks liked the flashers. 

I plan two trips downrange to paint 300 yard targets.

 

Coconino Pistolero,

Winter Range Long Range Match Director

Edited by The Coconino Pistolero, SASS # 72432
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As a starting point I have been both volunteering and shooting the Bucky O'Neill event since it was first introduced.

 

From you post, it appears you are saying that the only acceptable sight position for any rifle will be with the leaf down and no use of the adjustment features on the sight? I think it's fairly safe to say that most military rifles in the applicable era has at a minimum range adjustable sights.

 

Using the 1903 as the reference - the 1903's battle sight is set to 547 yards with service ammunition. Since we cannot use jacketed full power ammo and many shooters have reduced loads that require use of the adjustments available on the 1903 sight or the various sights on Krags and Mausers  you are requiring shooters to make massive Kentucky windage adjustments to shoot acceptable ammunition at ranges of 100, 200 and 300 yards.

 

What about 45-70 trapdoors or other cartridges that have rainbow trajectories to begin with. When the sight is laid flat on my 1873 trapdoor that's 100 yards.

 

Please clarify

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The folded down sight may be adjusted. 

 

As you say it's a necessity on a Trapdoor.  I adjust for 100, 200, and 300 yards between shooting positions. 

 

For the Krag, set at 200 and then 300.

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So the rule is going to be that any leaf sight has to be in the down position? On rifles with sights that have elevation adjustments that can be made with the sight down, like on the trapdoor with the ramped sides - that's ok, but on a 1903 or other rifle that has elevation adjustments only on the leaf then the shooter is out of luck? My Krag has the later 1901 sight which is very similar to the 03 sight, which according to this rule cannot be used properly.

 

I've only shot the event with a Krag and a trapdoor, but this is an argument I've had beginning with your predecessor. Because many rifles have similar sights and the rifles are designed to be shot using the leaf sight set to the appropriate range and on the 03 the shooters choice of the peep sight or open sight notch on the slide group. The battle sight is a hasty sight.

Edited by Judah MacAbee SASS #64095 Life
punctuation and spelling corrections

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Here is the form for volunteers to complete and simply email it back to me to be added to the volunteer schedule.We will provide food and drink during your volunteer shift as well as nice pin that indicated you volunteered at Winter Range.

 

Directions:

Download it to your computer, it allows you to type in all of the information in the form, save it to your computer and then send the completed form back to me.

turquoisebill@cableone.net 

 

 

WR2020 Wed.VolunteerFormrEM.pdf

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Thanks TB for posting the volunteer form.

 

Judah, 

It is the Bucky O'Neill military rifle match and we try to recreate fast shooting at different ranges,  hence the requirement to use the battlesight.

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I don't shoot any slower using the sights as designed and in my experience neither did any of the other prior year competitors. 

Edited by Judah MacAbee SASS #64095 Life

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I've shot the Buckley O'Neill 5 times and placed 1st once and 2nd once shooting a krag. Would not have been possible without raising the leaf sight due to the lower powered rounds with lead bullets being used in the old military rifle. Never did I see or hear anyone telling shooters they had to leave the leaf sight in the down position. You are making a BIG mistake if this is what you will be doing this year. 

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If this is the objective:

 

"recreate fast shooting at different ranges,  hence the requirement to use the battlesight. "

 

Then targets should probably be set for 75, 125 and 150 yards max, especially with cast bullets being required.  And smaller than the 6 foot high targets could be used.

 

At Bordertown this year, we shot BAMM at 75, 100 and about 140 yards, using large "Cowboy" targets and lead bullets.  Battle sights worked there with minimal "Kentucky hold-over"

 

Good luck, GJ

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A '73 trapdoor, no problem. An '84 trapdoor, big problem, as the sight is nonadjustable in the down position.

kR

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The leaf sight regulation makes no sense and is, IMHO, a mistake.

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I appreciate the comments about the Bucky O'Neill bolt and single shot stages.

 

I looked back at the bolt action and single shot results posted on the Winter Range site.  Before 2016 there were 100 and 200 yard targets, starting on Feb 2016 the 300 yard target was added.   I stayed with what Pigpen started because we get participation of 10-20 shooters depending on the weather and  and the last 6 years using the bolt action the winner either cleaned it or had one miss.   I changed the target distance on the Quigley to increase the likelyhood of more hits and that worked out in 2019.

 

There are advantages to some rifles over another.  The Krag was used by the winner on several of these matches but I have noticed a trend 

to those shooting rifles that use stripper clips placing high or winning.  Just like Cowboy shooting, there is a trend for folks to use whatever might give them an edge within the rules of the game.

 

The Bucky O'Neill match is perhaps the most challenging military rifle long range match and is a test of accuracy and speed.  I suspect the winners that get to wear the marksmenship pin feel the same way.

 

 

Pray for good weather!

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Coconino Pistolero,

 

First of all, thank you for making the Long Range events at WR top notch, and for obviously listening to input and working to make it even better.

 

Regarding the sight issue, I am happy to shoot it either way, as long as I know what the rules are.  My big objection is that the rule has previously been unclear and not everyone has been required to shoot using the same procedures.  I have assumed that "battle sight" meant it had to be the sights issued on the original military rifles and have shot with the sights raised, and no one has ever told me I was doing it wrong.   I know of one cowboy who shot for the first time last year, and came prepared, using that same understanding.  He watched others shoot with sights raised, but an hour or so later, when he came to shoot the event, there was a different RO, and while on the clock, he raised his sight after moving to the 200 yard position, was told he had to leave the sight lowered. 

 

While I do not understand the logic behind not allowing full utilization of the military issued sights, I have no problem shooting under the rule as you have stated here.  I do feel very strongly that the rule needs to be clearly explained on the Long Range section of the WR Side Match webpage.  I, along with, I believe,  a majority of shooters, do not closely follow the Wire, and would not have known anything about this, had a fellow cowboy not sent me a link to this thread.   I would also suggest that the this be clearly listed at sign up table, and all BO event ROs need to fully understand, explain and enforce the rule for all.  

 

Thanks again,

 

Jackpine

 

 

 

 

 

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"The Bucky O'Neill match is perhaps the most challenging military rifle long range match and is a test of accuracy and speed."

This need for speed thing is contrary to sprit of the game for long range shooting.  Read the rules.  It clearly states that the emphasis is to be placed on PRECISION   From the rule book:  

     ”SASS long range or precision rifle competition is different than main match rifle competition with more

       emphasis placed on precision shooting at longer ranges, with time being a secondary scoring factor.”   

Designing a match so as speed is essential to win, is more like a main match stage rather than a true long range match.

 

 

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Maybe this should be a separate post/thread.

 

Regarding the winter range black powder single shot match.

I have shot this the previous two years, and in each year I shot 10/10 scores to earn 2nd place due to time.  The first year the 10/10 took me about 300+ seconds so last year I was determined to not lose to time.  No wiping no blow tube, my 10/10 took about 140 seconds only to lose out to the first place of about 130 seconds

Almost any shooter could use my rifle-ammo-settings and score 10/10 it is fairly easy.

This has become a SPEED event and if that is the intended goal then so-be-it, no need to read on.

Personally I would like to have an event that requires more skill versus speed.

Yes, the buffalo event is at a greater distance and I do not think there have been 10/10 hits.

Suggestions, try targets distances that require different settings, different shooting positions, different target sizes.

Edited by wyliefoxEsquire
more detail
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High score for the Buffalo is 9 hits 2017 by HF MC CAWLEY and 2018 9 hits by the Gardner Kid AKA Judge Gardner

Edited by Judge Gardner

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I have been involved in the operation of quite a few long range events and find no simple answers to the question of how "difficult" or challenging to make the targets.  If you set the course of fire to be challenging enough so there are no ties you will have radically reduced the number of hits for many shooters, escpecially newer ones, to a discouraging number.  The legendary Blue Dog's line was "people like to hit."  

 

Back in the Frozen Tundra of Minnesota and the Dakotas, most of the long range events involve multiple ranges and ties are broken by shootoffs.  This allows even the most novice shooter to have a very good chance to hit a fair number of targets, at least at the closer distances, and the better shooters get to prove themselves on the more distant, challenging targets, and in shootoffs, with even smaller targets. Time is not a factor.  When I first shot long range in Arizona and the targets for each class were all at one range and timed, I asked, in jest, "if long range matches are to somewhat simulate a hunt, who the heck was ever in a rush to shoot a buffalo, and when did they ever stay at the same range??!!"  I got the same response that I usually got from my Norweigen mother-in-law!!!

 

The obvious issue with a match like Winter Range, where there are large numbers of shooters and ten different events, is getting the most shooters through in a limited amount of time and the logistcs of a shootoff if you have several of the same competitors tied in multiple events.  

 

While I personally would be happy to see these events all shot at smaller targets and  be totally a test of skill, with time not being a factor, I want to see new shooters get involved in the long range events, and think smaller targets would discourage this.  I believe folks involved in setting up the events have done a very good job of making this an all around great event, and are obviously, based on the changes Coconino Pistolero listed in the opening post, working to make it even better.

 

Regarding Buffalo event, if you look at past scores, you will see that that there have been quite a few 10's shot in past years.

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Thanks to all for your comments.  My goal is to make a great match within the constraints of time and facilities.  Changes will be made when I see 

a chance to make it better.

 

Jackpine Bill said it eloquently,  the WR long range matches are different from other matches.   Lots of events to try your skill. 

 

I would also ask if you have not signed up to be a volunteer on Wednesday to please do so.   Thanks to the folks that already signed up including

the faithful that show up every year to help.  Could not do it without you.

 

Yeehaw.

 

See y'all in February 2020.

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I love the super long range matches but dislike timing them!!!  :angry: With my extra long long range sights, I simply aim my .50-140 toward Mars and hope the bullet will drop onto the target.  :D One of the nicest things about mile shoots is after the shot you can enjoy a lesurely cup of coffee and doughnut while you wait.  :P

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#1...Are you saying there will be an area to "practice" ie: Sight In?

#2...Are you looking for four hour shifts for volunteers again?

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Rancho, there is a sight and function check table at the far left of the long range event on the 300 yard range.

The normal volunteer shift is 2 1/2 hours.   Scroll up to see Turquoise Bill's post with the volunteer form.

 

Thanks pard.

 

CP

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