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Time for 1911's ???


Rye Miles #13621

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Awe, c'mon Cat. You know you have those days the same as the rest of us. Ya know, the type of day where ya just wanna go all gunfighter with two 1911s and take out them steel bad guys....

:D

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Maybe i'm being a bit simplistic, but can't we just transition to lighter loads?  When that day comes for me, that's my plan.....

 

Major  oversight on my part, hadn’t considered that aspect of cocking a SA.  With an ever increasing age in our core membership this needs to be looked in what’s best for the members and organization.  There are too many smart people in SASS to not come up with a workable solution.

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3 hours ago, Hendo said:

Understanding, of course, that this is SASS, would it be out of the realm to allow Arthur afflicted shooters to use period correct DA revolvers?

Mind you that I've only been doing this for about 2 months now, but I've met a lot of great people that I would miss if they couldn't come out and shoot.

Just askin...

Just sayin...

Hi Hendo,

 

I like thinking outside the box. I am one who thinks new people haven't been so immersed in "we've always done it that way" that they should be encouraged to toss out ideas (to a point ;) ). Just beware to not try to change too much, too adamantly. Your tone tells me that won't be a problem with you.

 

People feed (in a good way) on ideas of others, even if the original idea is rejected.

 

We have some older DAs, which I used to take on my dog/cat walks (with snake shot as the first round). I found the trigger pull to be too heavy. So I would have to use them single-action style. Hubby wouldn't lighten the trigger pull for safety reasons. I didn't get it as he could pull the trigger easily and I could not due to knobby, arthritic, trigger fingers. So, I am not sure how easily a DA could be used by people with Arthur without the lightening and others may object. :unsure:

 

Keep those ideas coming. Something needs to change. It may only be more marketing; but that is no reason to discourage other ideas.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

 

PS Don't forget that, at least in the past, SASS encouraged trying new things at local matches to see if they might gain a widespread following. That is being done with categories; such as Outlaw, Josie Wales...

 

PPS MDs have latitude to grant "reasonable accommodations" and should do this if they could retain people who could not otherwise shoot.

 

PPPS Hi Hashknife, I already use light loads in my pistols and SG. The only gun where I don't notice a problem is the rifle.

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44 minutes ago, Hashknife Cowboy said:

Maybe i'm being a bit simplistic, but can't we just transition to lighter loads?  When that day comes for me, that's my plan.....

Lighter loads is not the issue it’s the act of cocking a pistol with arthritis which I said in the OP. 

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7 hours ago, Captain Clark said:

Just like there are rules covering Cowboy Action! 
 

1911s and stoked shotguns?? What’s next, maybe auto loader rifles?
just shoot WB and call it what it is :)

 

I'm all for it.  Make wild bunch a main match category vs. a separate side match.  Ca[, if we do have auto loader rifles you can use my BAR anyday.

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1 hour ago, Hendo said:

Awe, c'mon Cat. You know you have those days the same as the rest of us. Ya know, the type of day where ya just wanna go all gunfighter with two 1911s and take out them steel bad guys....

:D

 

Ah, Bruce Willis in Last Man Standing.......great scene. Reload was.....interesting.

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1 hour ago, Doc Shapiro said:

Nope. It would be a different game altogether. 

Not really if everything else is the same.  Clubs are already doing it successfully as a Pike class.

 

It would only be a different game if the whole match was shot with a 1911, something mentioned but not really pursued.

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1 hour ago, Cypress Sun said:

 

Jim,

Most SASS shooters are well acquainted with the 1911. They just don't want to stand with their feet in two completely different boxes. After all, I've never seen a baseball game played with a football.

Apples and oranges pard.  One post spoke to ALL the problems they had integrating a 1911.  I have seen it work with no problems so is it the club hierarchy or folks not wanting to try something different?  I'll go with the latter.  Standing in two different boxes is not a problem unless you want it to be.

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Just now, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

Apples and oranges pard.  One post spoke to ALL the problems they had integrating a 1911.  I have seen it work with no problems so is it the club hierarchy or folks not wanting to try something different?  I'll go with the latter.  Standing in two different boxes is not a problem unless you want it to be.

 

In reality, I have no problem trying it.....it'd be fun. Other than the potential snags already mentioned, I just think it would chase more people away that retain.

 

Just my view from the saddle.

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7 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I think allowing 1911s, scored separately or not, into the game makes it an entirely different game not to mention adding a whole nother layer of rules governing the 1911.  

 

It seems to me if there are enough people having to switch to 1911s WB is ready and waiting to accommodate them. 

Thank you CBB

 

Why would we want to change anything about CAS? 

Aren't there other sports and clubs where almost any kind of shooting can be enjoyed?  Can't new shooting sports be begun under different names with different styles any time some one wants them? So why does it need to attach to CAS?  Nobody is chained down here.  Anyone who wants to shoot other guns can go there freely, without affecting their CAS status.   So much fun out there, so little time.  

 

This game began as Cowboy Action Shooting, more or less depicting the charm, equipment and history of the old west.  It fascinated each of us, the onlooking public, and even the media.  All were pre-captivated by the old TV westerns.  Now, the public looks at us and they see heroes--Tom, Roy, Paladin, Hoppy or Gene.  (They don't see scary crime figures like Al Capone or The Godfather.)  So people like cowboy lore and continue to like CAS.  Ours is the ONLY shooting sport about which the left-leaning media usually has had good things to say.  

 

Because we shoot pre-1900 SINGLE ACTION guns which look old and nostalgic,  we have so far escaped the growing anti-gun scrutiny, and so far they've even overlooked our "large capacity magazines" (holding as many as 11 rounds - - - LOL).   But when we begin to visibly merge those cowboy visuals with other later vintage guns, particularly with semiautos, we compromise all of those nostalgic visuals/appeal and become just another scary looking shooting sport that lawmakers will figure nobody will miss, except us. 

 

The viewing public has no idea that we have different shooting categories.  It's all old west to them.  They won't realize that the 1911s are a separate game (but on the same playing field at the same time). 

IMHO, It's a very slippery slope that we would do well to avoid.   

 

Moreover, we are what we are.  We have no need to change anything.  If our numbers fade because we all get too old to shoot and nobody fills in behind us, then it's probably time for our sport to go.  But so far, we see enough new recruitment to keep us going, if not growing.  We don't need to expand our scope to try to attract people who come for something different to what we are and always have been. 

I completely realize this is just my opinion and I am just one shooter.  I'm sure others will differ.   I like what we already are.   I say leave it alone and don't try to fix what ain't broke.  

 

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3 hours ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

A 1911 is a single action semi automatic, just sayin'. :rolleyes:

Help me out here.  What's single action about a 1911 or any semi? 

Just askin. 

Does the gun have to be cocked by the shooter for each shot?  If not, then - - - - -. 

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7 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Help me out here.  What's single action about a 1911 or any semi? 

Just askin. 

Does the gun have to be cocked by the shooter for each shot?  If not, then - - - - -. 

Because you have to cock the hammer for the first round.  Not everyone carries cocked and locked.  The Israeli police and military train to carry cold then rack to fire.  Hence the reason they're called single action semi's.

 

Then there are double action first round pistols, double action only pistols, and striker fire pistols.

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15 minutes ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

Because you have to cock the hammer for the first round.  Not everyone carries cocked and locked.  The Israeli police and military train to carry cold then rack to fire.  Hence the reason they're called single action semi's.

 

Then there are double action first round pistols, double action only pistols, and striker fire pistols.

So how does only cocking the first round fit into CAS?   And if you can't cock a revolver, with your arthritis (and I too have arthritis in my hands, elbows and both shoulders), how are you going to rack the slide on the 1911.   It's fairly difficult for me now, even with a Glock striker fire.  I wouldn't call any semi auto a "single action" firearm.    By your criteria, an AR rifle or Thompson Sub-machine Gun are both "single action" firearms.  

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I have arthritis. I shoot Holy Black gunfighter. I shoot 1911s in NRA bullseye matches. I vote NO on 1911s in CAS main matches.

 

Let's not further dumb down SASS.

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23 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Help me out here.  What's single action about a 1911 or any semi? 

Just askin. 

Does the gun have to be cocked by the shooter for each shot?  If not, then - - - - -. 

You should Google before posting some questions.

 

17 minutes ago, WymoreWrangler SASS 46187 said:

Just my thought, but if you can't cock a single action revolver, are you safe enough to shoot any revolver in completion?????

Wow! I find this question and your use of multiple emphatic question marks to be extremely poorly thought out. The last three words are a euphemism for my unedited thoughts. :o

 

 Let me tell you a "little" story. In 2005, I couldn't shoot a SAA without using Aleve for two days before and then during the match due to arthritis in my thumb. I had to change doctors due to the State changing insurance. When I first met the new doctor, he attempted to shake my hand. I declined and told him it was painful due to my arthritis. He said that is more than arthritis, x-rayed, and referred me to a hand surgeon. My hands were good for over 10 years. Now the arthritis is back with a vengeance. :(

 

Wait until it happens to you.

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7 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

So how does only cocking the first round fit into CAS?   And if you can't cock a revolver, with your arthritis (and I too have arthritis in my hands, elbows and both shoulders), how are you going to rack the slide on the 1911.   It's fairly difficult for me now, even with a Glock striker fire.  I wouldn't call any semi auto a "single action" firearm.  

The same way WB does, CAS with a 1911. 

 

Racking a 1911 is really pretty easy since the proper way is to use your whole hand instead of a thumb and forefinger.  Holding a semi properly also allows for safer gun handling during the firing process since your hands maintain a better register on the grips from start to finish.

 

You don't have to agree but a 1911 is called a single action semi auto.

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PS Following is the first (definitely not the only) answer to the following question: Is a 1911 single or double action.

 

"Is the Colt 1911 a single-action pistol? - Quora. Yes. The pistol must be cocked (either by racking the slide or cocking the hammer) on the first shot. ... In a double-action pistol, a round is chambered and it only requires a pull of the trigger to fire the pistol."

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On 11/12/2019 at 8:12 PM, Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 said:

Most of the Curved belts I have seen have been made for Women ...

 

Jabez Cowboy

 

10 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

You should Google before posting some questions.

 

Wow! I find this question and your use of multiple emphatic question marks to be extremely poorly thought out. The last three words are a euphemism for my unedited thoughts. :o

 

 Let me tell you a "little" story. In 2005, I couldn't shoot a SAA without using Aleve for two days before and then during the match due to arthritis in my thumb. I had to change doctors due to the State changing insurance. When I first met the new doctor, he attempted to shake my hand. I declined and told him it was painful due to my arthritis. He said that is more than arthritis, x-rayed, and referred me to a hand surgeon. My hands were good for over 10 years. Now the arthritis is back with a vengeance. :(

 

Wait until it happens to you.

 

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Allie, I live in constant pain from multiple issues VA rates me at 100 percent, I gut it out at matches, I shoot duelist and I always wonder when I will have to give that up....   As far as punctuation, it goes back to old teletype days in the Navy...

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18 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

You should Google before posting some questions.

 

Wow! I find this question and your use of multiple emphatic question marks to be extremely poorly thought out. The last three words are a euphemism for my unedited thoughts. :o

 

 Let me tell you a "little" story. In 2005, I couldn't shoot a SAA without using Aleve for two days before and then during the match due to arthritis in my thumb. I had to change doctors due to the State changing insurance. When I first met the new doctor, he attempted to shake my hand. I declined and told him it was painful due to my arthritis. He said that is more than arthritis, x-rayed, and referred me to a hand surgeon. My hands were good for over 10 years. Now the arthritis is back with a vengeance. :(

 

Wait until it happens to you.

Skipping your rhetorical remarks, You didn't read my post fully.   I have Progressive RA in both hands, both elbows, both shoulders and so far in one hip.   None are disabling, as yet, but they will become so at some point.  I really don't see why the CAS sport needs to be changed to accommodate me.  I'll shoot CAS as long as I can, then move on, maybe shoot WB, or another sport of some kind.  My RA is my problem, nobody else's.   Leave the main game as is.  WB is sitting there waiting for us, if/when needed.  

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2 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Skipping your rhetorical remarks, You didn't read my post fully.   I have Progressive RA in both hands, both elbows, both shoulders and so far in one hip.   None are disabling, as yet, but they will become so at some point.  I really don't see why the CAS sport needs to be changed to accommodate me.  I'll shoot CAS as long as I can, then move on, maybe shoot WB, or another sport of some kind.  My RA is my problem, nobody else's.   Leave the main game as is.  WB is sitting there waiting for us, if/when needed.  

The problem is WB is limited to side matches at 3 day shoots and maybe an occasional WB shoot. You wouldn’t be shooting too much if you just did WB. We allow it at a monthly and score them separately. We do a modified version, it works out great!

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15 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

PS Following is the first (definitely not the only) answer to the following question: Is a 1911 single or double action.

 

"Is the Colt 1911 a single-action pistol? - Quora. Yes. The pistol must be cocked (either by racking the slide or cocking the hammer) on the first shot. ... In a double-action pistol, a round is chambered and it only requires a pull of the trigger to fire the pistol."

As I posted elsewhere, by that criterion, an AR or Tommy are both "Single Action".  

Regardless og Google, I ask you, was that the original intended scope of CAS--the Original question?  

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2 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

As I posted elsewhere, by that criterion, an AR or Tommy are both "Single Action".  

Regardless og Google, I ask you, was that the original intended scope of CAS--the Original question?  

Throwing rifles into the mix doesn't invalidate the 1911 as a single action or justify your argument pard.

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3 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

The problem is WB is limited to side matches at 3 day shoots and maybe an occasional WB shoot. You wouldn’t be shooting too much if you just did WB. We allow it at a monthly and score them separately. We do a modified version, it works out great!

Do you mix the two kinds of shooting, as with other categories?If so, except for dress, the shooting isn't going to look very "Cowboy" to any onlooking public.   I doubt it would attract any new shooters, who could go shoot other sports with their semi's and not trip over our dress, gun or ammo requirements.  

 

I could see it as a separate WB posse along with a main match.   But I can't see how to integrate the two in listing match overall standing. 

 Sorry I personally just can't stretch  Cowboy shooting to include a 1911.   

Maybe it's just me.   

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13 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Skipping your rhetorical remarks, You didn't read my post fully.   I have Progressive RA in both hands, both elbows, both shoulders and so far in one hip.   None are disabling, as yet, but they will become so at some point.  I really don't see why the CAS sport needs to be changed to accommodate me.  I'll shoot CAS as long as I can, then move on, maybe shoot WB, or another sport of some kind.  My RA is my problem, nobody else's.   Leave the main game as is.  WB is sitting there waiting for us, if/when needed.  

I assure you the following, my only remark to you, was not rhetorical. "You should Google before posting some questions."

7 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

As I posted elsewhere, by that criterion, an AR or Tommy are both "Single Action".  

Regardless og Google, I ask you, was that the original intended scope of CAS--the Original question?  

Now that is rhetorical. I'll still answer. No, it was not, neither were most of the categories we have today, nor many gun modifications... So that question is irrelevant to today's CAS.

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6 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Do you mix the two kinds of shooting, as with other categories?If so, except for dress, the shooting isn't going to look very "Cowboy" to any onlooking public.   I doubt it would attract any new shooters, who could go shoot other sports with their semi's and not trip over our dress, gun or ammo requirements.  

 

I could see it as a separate WB posse along with a main match.   But I can't see how to integrate the two in listing match overall standing. 

 Sorry I personally just can't stretch  Cowboy shooting to include a 1911.   

Maybe it's just me.   

You must not be reading what I’m saying. The local  club where we allow WB ,we DO NOT list them in the overall standings.

I am not suggesting they be included in the overall scores they would be separate!

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10 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

You must not be reading what I’m saying. The local  club where we allow WB ,we DO NOT list them in the overall standings.

I am not suggesting they be included in the overall scores they would be separate!

Rye, If they are a separate category, I see nothing wrong with including them in the Overall scores. After all the Overall scores have Duelists, GFs, two-handed grippers mixed in with the BP categories. It makes it easier to see how you did in comparison to others. If you only want to see others of a specific category go to the By Category scores.

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Single Action Semi Auto Shooting Society, SASASS. Coming to a range near you.

 

Rye, are you looking for an excuse to shoot your 1911? Old arthritic hands still have to load mags, place mags in gun, and pull back slide. And, clear an occasional jam. Plus, pick up additional brass. Really don't see the pain savings over cocking a single action revolver.

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I  have arthritis.  I also suffer from Complex Regional Pain Syndrome in my right hand affecting the pointer, middle and ring fingers.  The CRPS is 100 times worse than my arthritis and will sometime put me on my knees for four or five minutes.  I shoot Senior Gunfighter.  I also shoot in a Bullseye league with a 1911.  I'd much rather shoot Gunfighter with my SAA clones than the 1911.  

 

If someone truly wants to shoot a 1911.  WB is already out there and many shoot both disciplines.  If a club wants to allow WB to be shot at CB matches and they are scored separately great, but they should not be mixed in with CB scores.

 

Just my .02.  

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2 hours ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

Hi Hendo,

 

I like thinking outside the box. I am one who thinks new people haven't been so immersed in "we've always done it that way" that they should be encouraged to toss out ideas (to a point ;) ). Just beware to not try to change too much, too adamantly. Your tone tells me that won't be a problem with you.

 

People feed (in a good way) on ideas of others, even if the original idea is rejected.

 

We have some older DAs, which I used to take on my dog/cat walks (with snake shot as the first round). I found the trigger pull to be too heavy. So I would have to use them single-action style. Hubby wouldn't lighten the trigger pull for safety reasons. I didn't get it as he could pull the trigger easily and I could not due to knobby, arthritic, trigger fingers. So, I am not sure how easily a DA could be used by people with Arthur without the lightening and others may object. :unsure:

 

Keep those ideas coming. Something needs to change. It may only be more marketing; but that is no reason to discourage other ideas.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

 

PS Don't forget that, at least in the past, SASS encouraged trying new things at local matches to see if they might gain a widespread following. That is being done with categories; such as Outlaw, Josie Wales...

 

PPS MDs have latitude to grant "reasonable accommodations" and should do this if they could retain people who could not otherwise shoot.

 

PPPS Hi Hashknife, I already use light loads in my pistols and SG. The only gun where I don't notice a problem is the rifle.

Thank you kindly, Ma'am,

Honestly, it's not my intention to change anything about this sport or community. I came into this on an invite from a friend and I'm staying for the people I have met and hope to meet. I'm not sure if everyone gets how truly special that is. This sport is roughly 6 minutes of trigger time and a whole day of good people. I don't always do people well (I'm gonna prove that in a minute), but y'all make me want to be better and to help if I can. This thread really isn't about changing rules on a whim. I don't really think it's about changing the rules at all. I thought of it as more of a way to toss ideas around to help out the community that I hope to contribute enough to that I'll be comfortable saying "our" community.

 

And now....

1 hour ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

 

 

Because we shoot pre-1900 SINGLE ACTION guns which look old and nostalgic,  we have so far escaped the growing anti-gun scrutiny, and so far they've even overlooked our "large capacity magazines" (holding as many as 11 rounds - - - LOL).   But when we begin to visibly merge those cowboy visuals with other later vintage guns, particularly with semiautos, we compromise all of those nostalgic visuals/appeal and become just another scary looking shooting sport that lawmakers will figure nobody will miss, except us. 

 

The viewing public has no idea that we have different shooting categories.  It's all old west to them.  They won't realize that the 1911s are a separate game (but on the same playing field at the same time). 

IMHO, It's a very slippery slope that we would do well to avoid.   

 

 

Amigo, 

As one NRA life member to another, you should hang your head in shame for what you just posted. You talk about a shooting sport that brings back the nostalgia of Tom, Roy, Gene, Paladin or whatever. Most younger folks these days don't even know who they are, let alone feel nostalgic about it. Hell, I was talking to a couple of younger guys at work today who didn't even know what Soylent Green was. Do you seriously think that because the sport uses "old timey" shootin irons that the bead won't eventually be drawn on us? Did you really just say that if we don't use them fancy auto-loaders the politicians will leave us alone? You talk about slippery slopes to avoid and you've already slipped down the biggest one. You talk about compromise of the rules of the sport we participate in and you compromise our 2nd Amendment.

Your talk of public perception is misguided. The further we get down the timeline from the Old West, the more import is placed upon our efforts to inform or even educate the casual observer of our chosen past time and how important it was to the building of our country. Maybe helping folks understand the history of firearms in our society and how an AR-15 is just as important now as a Brown Bess was in 1776 might be a better use of your time instead of hiding behind your spurs.

I've been in California my whole life and I've seen the changes caused by apathy, indifference and self service. Hunters, sportsmen, collectors and casual shooters who didn't think to vote against the small propositions because it didn't really involve them. Until it did....

 

Now I may have taken your post out of context. I may have misread it or maybe you misspoke. I mulled it over and reread it as best I could. If I am wrong, I duly apologize.

 

To the rest of the good folks here, I will apologize now. There are some things I just can't abide.

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1 hour ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

Rye, If they are a separate category, I see nothing wrong with including them in the Overall scores. After all the Overall scores have Duelists, GFs, two-handed grippers mixed in with the BP categories. It makes it easier to see how you did in comparison to others. If you only want to see others of a specific category go to the By Category scores.

We all figured the problem is that shooters can potentially be much faster with 1911's, while that's not always the case it can be. They still get scored so they can see how they did overall anyway by comparing scores.

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