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Time for 1911's ???


Rye Miles #13621

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Cococino Pistolero's post about switching to two handed shooting because of arthritis got me thinking. Is it time to allow 1911's in the main matches? It could be a separate category of course, we do allow it at our monthly Firelands shoot and it's scored separately from the other shooters. It's a modified Wild Bunch. Might be a way to keep everyone that's getting older in the game.

 

Thoughts? 

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3 minutes ago, Hendo said:

Pard, I was just reading that same post and having a ghost of a similar thought.

Great minds think alike!!!:D

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I think allowing 1911s, scored separately or not, into the game makes it an entirely different game not to mention adding a whole nother layer of rules governing the 1911.  

 

It seems to me if there are enough people having to switch to 1911s WB is ready and waiting to accommodate them. 

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8 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I think allowing 1911s, scored separately or not, into the game makes it an entirely different game not to mention adding a whole nother layer of rules governing the 1911.  

 

It seems to me if there are enough people having to switch to 1911s WB is ready and waiting to accommodate them. 

I see what you're saying but there's already rules governing WB. At our club we allow the shooter to replace the SAA with the 1911, everything else is the same. At the moment we also allow them to stoke their shotgun with 4 or 6 whatever the stage calls for. They cannot reload. That can be changed also. We also do not include them in the main match scores, they're scored separately. This allows then to shoot but since the 1911 can be faster we keep them separate.

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2 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

I see what you're saying but there's already rules governing WB. At our club we allow the shooter to replace the SAA with the 1911, everything else is the same. At the moment we also allow them to stoke their shotgun with 4 or 6 whatever the stage calls for. They cannot reload. That can be changed also. We also do not include them in the main match scores, they're scored separately. This allows then to shoot but since the 1911 can be faster we keep them separate.

Don't get me wrong!  If one of our local clubs makes that move I'll do my best to make it work when I'm a TO. 

 

I enjoy the sport more for the shooting than the cowboy aspect, but I do enjoy the cowboy aspect of it and I don't think 1911s are cowboy.  I mean it is SASS as in Single Action not Semi Auto.

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3 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Don't get me wrong!  If one of our local clubs makes that move I'll do my best to make it work when I'm a TO. 

 

I enjoy the sport more for the shooting than the cowboy aspect, but I do enjoy the cowboy aspect of it and I don't think 1911s are cowboy.  I mean it is SASS as in Single Action not Semi Auto.

I agree but I'm just thinking about keeping some folks in the game if cocking a pistol is too hard for their arthritic hands this would be an alternative.^_^

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4 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

I see what you're saying but there's already rules governing WB. 

Just like there are rules covering Cowboy Action! 
 

1911s and stoked shotguns?? What’s next, maybe auto loader rifles?
just shoot WB and call it what it is :)

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Escondido and Cajon allow Pike (WB) shooters to mingle with the CAS shooters and it works out well. Someday we have to all accept our limitations and adjust to them and hopefully we can allow some of that in the sport that we love. 

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Just now, Rye Miles #13621 said:

I agree but I'm just thinking about keeping some folks in the game if cocking a pistol is too hard for their arthritic hands this would be an alternative.^_^

I understand, I just respectfully disagree.  I think keeping folks in the game is an admirable objective, I just think that's too big of a change.  


 

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I know of a few clubs who tried allowing 1911s when WB first started.  They were not accepted by the revolver shooters and 1911s were disallowed.  I think allowing .22 revolvers for those with arthritic hands might be more acceptable.  I share CP's problems with my hands.  I can barely get through a Plainsman side match (my scores show this) and quit shooting my .44 revolvers.

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1 minute ago, Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 said:

I know of a few clubs who tried allowing 1911s when WB first started.  They were not accepted by the revolver shooters and 1911s were disallowed.  I think allowing .22 revolvers for those with arthritic hands might be more acceptable.  I share CP's problems with my hands.  I can barely get through a Plainsman side match (my scores show this) and quit shooting my .44 revolvers.

The only problem with .22's is you still have to cock them. That's what seems to bother folks with arthritis. It bothers me but for now Aleve works well and I can get through a match shooting duelist!

 

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In my area, there are a few clubs that will allow for WB shooters during a cowboy monthly, usually there is a separate set of stage instructions for the WB shooter(s).  Then there are clubs that have one day where only WB shooters can shoot,  but cowboy shooters are allowed.  I have not seen a club that allows for the option of shooting a SASS legal revolver of cowboy shooting or a 1911 platform.  

 

I, for one, would be against any option for the use of a SASS approved revolver versus a 1911 platform gun. 

 

If a shooter is having difficulty cocking the hammer of a revolver, as previously stated, making a change to the 1911 is even worse on the hands and wrists for that shooter. 

 

Just the power factor alone of the 1911, that will allow the action to properly work,  will cause more potential problems for a weak one or two handed shooter than the revolver.

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4 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

The only problem with .22's is you still have to cock them. That's what seems to bother folks with arthritis. It bothers me but for now Aleve works well and I can get through a match shooting duelist!

 

Fortunately, my offhand thumb is not much affected by arthritis so I easily shoot two-handed.  When I get so I can't cock a revolver I'll just shoot IDPA.  A semi-auto shooting 9-mm rounds is gentle on my hands.  Still, I'd miss CAS.

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4 minutes ago, Oklahoma Dee said:

In my area, there are a few clubs that will allow for WB shooters during a cowboy monthly, usually there is a separate set of stage instructions for the WB shooter(s).  Then there are clubs that have one day where only WB shooters can shoot,  but cowboy shooters are allowed.  I have not seen a club that allows for the option of shooting a SASS legal revolver of cowboy shooting or a 1911 platform.  

 

I, for one, would be against any option for the use of a SASS approved revolver versus a 1911 platform gun. 

 

If a shooter is having difficulty cocking the hammer of a revolver, as previously stated, making a change to the 1911 is even worse on the hands and wrists for that shooter. 

 

Just the power factor alone of the 1911, that will allow the action to properly work,  will cause more potential problems for a weak one or two handed shooter than the revolver.

I was thinking the same.  There's a lot more recoil from a 1911 than from a light loaded .38 or .32.

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Sounds a bit too much like WB to me. 

 

That being said, maybe something like one club used to do and have a separate TOC class which stood from Turn of the Century Cowboy.  Original or replicas up to WW1 I believe. 

 

That allowed double action revolvers and semi-autos. 

 

If you wanted to limit it to 1900 well that is some double action revolvers and semis like broomhandles and lugers (developed before and accepted by the German Navy in 1900 - the 08 was the acceptance by the Army). 

 

Perhaps stretch it just a bit but before the 1911 and maybe something like a 1903 or 08 pocket hammerless.

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I don’t think recoil is the problem, maybe for some, but I was responding to the people that have trouble cocking a revolver, hence the 1911. 

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Understanding, of course, that this is SASS, would it be out of the realm to allow Arthur afflicted shooters to use period correct DA revolvers?

Mind you that I've only been doing this for about 2 months now, but I've met a lot of great people that I would miss if they couldn't come out and shoot.

Just askin...

Just sayin...

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Add me to the no camp.

 

- I don't see how the 1911 would help the shooter with arthritis much. You still have to load the mags, rack the slide, do mag changes and deal with the recoil. 

 

- It would require that every TO be versed in the operation/function of the 1911. It would also require that every TO be versed in the Wild Bunch rules or a modified           version there of.

 

- It would increase brass pick up by double.

 

- It would add yet another category to a game that already has way too many categories.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love the 1911....it's one of my favorites. It just doesn't belong incorporated into a Cowboy Action match in my opinion.

 

YMMV

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As a person with arthritic hands, I like it. I find my 1911 easier to shoot as no cocking is needed. I've already had one thumb's basal joint replaced with a tendon graft. Now the other thumb hurts.

 

You've probably heard that WBAS is not CAS with a 1911. Shooting CAS with a 1911 is a different proposition. People with shoulder issues could easily shoot all pistol, no long guns.

 

The part I wouldn't like is the brass picking.  Instead of 10 rifle, it would also have 20 pistol to pick. As I rarely pick anymore, I would feel bad making others pick that much for me. I've shot with two people shooting CAS with 1911s, when I did pick. There is a lot of brass to find. It wouldn't be so bad with a line that is horizontal. Unfortunately, with a W3G layout, brass could be everywhere.

 

At our local WBAS match we have a Muchos Federales stage with 60+ targets. Guns are shooters' choices. Some shooters use the 1911 instead of a rifle. Hence, shoulder issues can be avoided.

 

Also, it may appeal to a younger audience.

 

BTW, I too am on the "We need to advertise" bandwagon.

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I would like shoot 1911s or 1917 revolvers in sass matches in 10-10-4 stages.  Wild bunch is just too much 45 auto for me.  One thing is that is just too much  of a beating and too much 45 ammo involved. Irish ☘️ Pat

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9 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

As a person with arthritic hands, I like it. I find my 1911 easier to shoot as no cocking is needed. I've already had one thumb's basal joint replaced with a tendon graft. Now the other thumb hurts.

 

You've probably heard that WBAS is not CAS with a 1911. Shooting CAS with a 1911 is a different proposition. People with shoulder issues could easily shoot all pistol, no long guns.

 

The part I wouldn't like is the brass picking.  Instead of 10 rifle, it would also have 20 pistol to pick. As I rarely pick anymore, I would feel bad making others pick that much for me. I've shot with two people shooting CAS with 1911s, when I did pick. There is a lot of brass to find. It wouldn't be so bad with a line that is horizontal. Unfortunately, with a W3G layout, brass could be everywhere.

 

At our local WBAS match we have a Muchos Federales stage with 60+ targets. Guns are shooters' choices. Some shooters use the 1911 instead of a rifle. Hence, shoulder issues can be avoided.

 

Also, it may appeal to a younger audience.

 

BTW, I too am on the "We need to advertise" bandwagon.

Allie, now that’s an  interesting idea just using a 1911 for rifle and shotgun too.

 

BTW , I just watched the movie Wild Bunch so that got me thinking! Great movie!! 

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18 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

What pat of "Single Action Shooting Society" is not understood??  Rye, your "Caffeine Low Light is ON"  :rolleyes:

A 1911 is a single action semi automatic, just sayin'. :rolleyes:

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No.  We went through those years where everyone was trying to integrate WB into SASS matches.  We did it at our range for quite a while.  It caused issues with scoring, it caused issues with shooters, it caused issues with time picking brass, it caused issues with TO training and rules.

 

And don't forget this as well:  Those of us who shoot on major shooting ranges... we have permission to shoot our sport per the rules in the SASS book which are all based on single action firearms.  The moment we add semi-automatic pistols we will suddenly have our range's board and safety officers looking at all the pistol reload muzzle directions and will likely force changes to our loading and unloading table policies because of the way they want ammo and loading handled by semi auto firearms with magazines.  It opens an epic can of worms and will get SASS looked at just as hard as USPSA and modern 3 gun matches at host ranges.

 

Some ranges can integrate it at will with no issue, but some can not.  It's far from an easy universal change.

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2 hours ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

I don’t think recoil is the problem, maybe for some, but I was responding to the people that have trouble cocking a revolver, hence the 1911. 

 

 

 

You can't keep changing thing to fit everyone. Lots of other games they can play that use a 1911.

If they can no longer handle a Single Action. Then I am sorry. It's just time to not shoot a Single Action game.

 

 

Just the way I see it.

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I don't see this as necessarily a change to fit everyone.  I see it as a way to keep some shooters in the game but more importantly, it adds variety to the old 10-10-4.  Shooting the entire course with a handgun would be a hoot whether it's a period double action revolver or a 1911.

 

The folks that think the sky will fall if a 1911 is used need to consider getting out of their box.  I change categories every year so using a 1911 in a CAS scenario isn't a far reach for me.  As far as the TO, if they can't understand a slight change in weaponry, they shouldn't be a TO.

 

That's just the view from my saddle.

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33 minutes ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

 

 

The folks that think the sky will fall if a 1911 is used need to consider getting out of their box.  

 

Jim,

Most SASS shooters are well acquainted with the 1911. They just don't want to stand with their feet in two completely different boxes. After all, I've never seen a baseball game played with a football.

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7 hours ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

Cococino Pistolero's post about switching to two handed shooting because of arthritis got me thinking. Is it time to allow 1911's in the main matches? It could be a separate category of course, we do allow it at our monthly Firelands shoot and it's scored separately from the other shooters. It's a modified Wild Bunch. Might be a way to keep everyone that's getting older in the game.

 

Thoughts? 

 

6 hours ago, Hendo said:

Pard, I was just reading that same post and having a ghost of a similar thought.

 

CALL AN EXORCIST!!:P

 

Cat Brules

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