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That could have turned out badly


Alpo

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American Rifleman arrive today. Armed Citizen column.

 

Ohio. McDonald's. Man with knife threatening other customers. Old man with carry permit pulls gun, tells him to drop the knife. Man with knife turns and walks out of building.

 

Old man with gun follows him outside, "convinces him to drop the knife" and holds him for the cops.

 

From everything I've read, as soon as the guy with the knife stopped his threatening and turned to leave, he was no longer the aggressor. When the guy with the gun followed him outside, HE became the aggressor. If the man with the knife had stabbed him, he would have had a legitimate "self defense" claim - "crazy old fart's pointing a gun at me".

 

And if the man with the knife attempted to stab the man with the gun, and the man with the gun shot him, that would have been ADW, or attempted murder, and if he killed him, murder.

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I still think everyone that carries should be required to read "In the Gravest Extreme" by Ayoob. Old book but does a fantastic job of explaining "escalation of force" and other concepts. Not sure if it's still available though.

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A couple of years ago in California,  Lake County,  Kelseyville I think it was,  a guy was the victim of a home invasion.   He grabbed a gun,  fired,  and the thugs ran out.   He pursued them and shot one of them outside.   DA didn't prosecute because the guy said he believed that he was still in danger because they might come back. 

 

I would argue that the guy with the knife was still a threat to others and since usually laws are written in such a way as to justify threat or use of deadly force to protect self or others the guy is in the clear.

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6 minutes ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

 

I would argue that the guy with the knife was still a threat to others and since usually laws are written in such a way as to justify threat or use of deadly force to protect self or others the guy is in the clear.

 

Bingo!

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18 minutes ago, J. Mark Flint #31954 LIFE said:

He should have shot him the moment he pulled his gun out.

 

Effective... but kinda messy.  :rolleyes:

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I think the old dude did the right thing. How do you know that idiot wasn't going out to his car to get another knife or worse an gun? I'm sure the cops thought the old dude did the right thing.;)

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16 minutes ago, Alpo said:

The right thing is not always the legal thing.

According to the Sheriff's office it was!

"The sheriff's office credited the CCL holder with heroic actions that prevented injury or loss of life"

 

That's a direct quote from the article.

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1 hour ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

A couple of years ago in California,  Lake County,  Kelseyville I think it was,  a guy was the victim of a home invasion.   He grabbed a gun,  fired,  and the thugs ran out.   He pursued them and shot one of them outside.   DA didn't prosecute because the guy said he believed that he was still in danger because they might come back. 

 

I would argue that the guy with the knife was still a threat to others and since usually laws are written in such a way as to justify threat or use of deadly force to protect self or others the guy is in the clear.

The DA in Lake County knows the potential jury pool & didn't want to waste the county's meager funds.  If had happened in Marin County it would have been another story.

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If you live where the DA is pro-2A and pro-self defense you may get away with it. But if you live where he/she is an anti-gun d-bag and determined to make a name for him/herself for political gain you're taking a real risk. I am not a cop so I'm not going to push the issue once my assailant breaks contact, unless I can clearly see him about to re-engage or else turn on another innocent person.

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Depending on the particular state laws regarding use of force, he could have been completely right.....or completely wrong.
Many foreign visitors are confused about our system of semi-autonomous states and the differences between their laws. Most other countries have one set of laws that govern all areas.

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22 hours ago, Doc X said:

I still think everyone that carries should be required to read "In the Gravest Extreme" by Ayoob. Old book but does a fantastic job of explaining "escalation of force" and other concepts. Not sure if it's still available though.

 

Still in print and available from Amazon

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I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't have pressed the issue unless someone else or myself came under direct threat again. The State and County I live in would probably see stopping a potential threat as excusable....but maybe not. I sure as hell don't have the resources to fight a charge in court and jail just isn't my thing. I'd call 911, keep an eye out for any further threat and let them handle it. 

 

 

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